The first cause argument

[Polymath257]

So what caused the N14?

Probably nuclear reactions in some star before the development of the solar system (or, potentially, the decay of previous C14).

 

[firedragon]

We have, repeatedly.

Who is this "we"? Cavalry? Why do you act as if this is some kind of religious group?

Electron-positron pairs *pop out of nothing*

Please give this scientific paper that this is fact. No cause. Zilch. Just pops out. And it is fact. Go ahead.

You will never be able to do it.

 

[firedragon]

Logic is limited to propositional logic (negation, implication, and, or, logical equivalence) and quantifier logic (statements about everything being the case or the existence of something being the case).

To say anything about the real world means you *have* to go beyond logic and have observation. That is science.

In particular, the question about when and how causality makes sense is a *scientific* question and NOT a logical one.



Electron-positron pair production happens in a vacuum. There is literally nothing prior to it.

How did that vacuum appear? Magic? Uncaused? Is there a scientific paper that says that as a fact?

 

[Polymath257]

Who is this "we"? Cavalry? Why do you act as if this is some kind of religious group?

I and others in this thread. I have given links to articles about radioactive decay explicitly stating that the decays are random.

if you want, I can give textbooks for the same.

Please give this scientific paper that this is fact. No cause. Zilch. Just pops out. And it is fact. Go ahead.

You will never be able to do it.

Quantum fluctuation - Wikipedia

"In quantum physics, a quantum fluctuation (or vacuum state fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary random change in the amount of energy in a point in space,[2] as prescribed by Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. They are tiny random fluctuations in the values of the fields which represent elementary particles, such as electric and magnetic fields which represent the electromagnetic force carried by photons, W and Z fields which carry the weak force, and gluon fields which carry the strong force.[3] Vacuum fluctuations appear as virtual particles, which are always created in particle-antiparticle pairs.[4"

Note: *random* changes.

 

[Polymath257]

How did that vacuum appear? Magic? Uncaused? Is there a scientific paper that says that as a fact?

A vacuum is nothing, right?

More specifically, it is the absence of things in space.

 

[firedragon]

A vacuum is nothing, right?

More specifically, it is the absence of things in space.

I dont wanna get into a discussion on what is a vacuum and what is not etc etc. If you wish to do some of that, you can open a new thread to do that.

My question is, did that vacuum appear without cause? Is there any scientific paper that says that as a fact?

You can never produce something like that. No matter how much you try your best to bring science into this, as we see all the time, it will fail. Science does not work that way.

And you have missed the whole point.

 

[Polymath257]

A paper testing the hypothesis that radioactive decay is random:

Do radioactive decay events follow a random poisson-exponential? - ScienceDirect

Conclusion: it is.

use of radioactivity to produce *true* random numbers (because radioactive decays are random):
http://poseidon2.feld.cvut.cz/conf/...ngs/Poster_2017/Section_EI/EI_040_Ruschen.pdf

 

[firedragon]

I and others in this thread. I have given links to articles about radioactive decay explicitly stating that the decays are random.

if you want, I can give textbooks for the same.



Quantum fluctuation - Wikipedia

"In quantum physics, a quantum fluctuation (or vacuum state fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary random change in the amount of energy in a point in space,[2] as prescribed by Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. They are tiny random fluctuations in the values of the fields which represent elementary particles, such as electric and magnetic fields which represent the electromagnetic force carried by photons, W and Z fields which carry the weak force, and gluon fields which carry the strong force.[3] Vacuum fluctuations appear as virtual particles, which are always created in particle-antiparticle pairs.[4"

Note: *random* changes.

Lol. Why do you speak about decays again when I asked you where C14 came from, and where did that come from, what caused it? YOU already gave a cause. I mean you gave the cause.

 

[ratiocinator]

Its simple logic. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

That isn't logic, it's a statement about the physical world, i.e. it's a scientific claim.

 

[firedragon]

A paper testing the hypothesis that radioactive decay is random:

Do radioactive decay events follow a random poisson-exponential? - ScienceDirect

Conclusion: it is.

Hypothesis. Not fact.

 

[firedragon]

That isn't logic, it's a statement about the physical world, i.e. it's a scientific claim.

If you want it to be that way, its your happiness after all I suppose.

But this is a philosophical argument. It is not a scientific experiment done in some lab. Hope you understand.

 

[lukethethird]

The universe consists of vacuums of space, where there is not space there are particles of matter, the rest is opinion.

 

[Polymath257]

I dont wanna get into a discussion on what is a vacuum and what is not etc etc. If you wish to do some of that, you can open a new thread to do that.

My question is, did that vacuum appear without cause? Is there any scientific paper that says that as a fact?

You can never produce something like that. No matter how much you try your best to bring science into this, as we see all the time, it will fail. Science does not work that way.

And you have missed the whole point.

Quantum birth of a hot universe - ScienceDirect
The quantum era - ScienceDirect
Phys. Rev. D 78, 044023 (2008) - Entanglement of quantum fluctuations in the inflationary universe
Is the Universe a Vacuum Fluctuation? - Nature

A philosophical discussion of an uncaused universe:
The Uncaused Beginning of the Universe | Philosophy of Science: Vol 55, No 1

"There is sufficient evidence at present to justify the belief that the universe began to exist without being caused to do so."

Note: this is a direct, philosophical rebuttal of one of your premises.

 

[Polymath257]

If you want it to be that way, its your happiness after all I suppose.

But this is a philosophical argument. It is not a scientific experiment done in some lab. Hope you understand.

And philosophical arguments alone *cannot* say anything about reality. That is part of the point.

 

[Polymath257]

Hypothesis. Not fact.

TESTED hypothesis. In other words, a fact.

 

[Polymath257]

Lol. Why do you speak about decays again when I asked you where C14 came from, and where did that come from, what caused it? YOU already gave a cause. I mean you gave the cause.

Yes, I gave a cause for the C14 nucleus. I gave a cause for it to be unstable. The C14 was formed in a reaction between cosmic rays and N14 OR via a decay (uncaused) of a different C14 nucleus.

But there is NO CAUSE for the specific timing of the decay.

 

[We Never Know]

A vacuum is nothing, right?

More specifically, it is the absence of things in space.

Isn't a vacuum something? Is there any place that has an absence of everything?

 

[Polymath257]

Isn't a vacuum something? Is there any place that has an absence of everything?

Well, again, there are always those vacuum fluctuations, which arise spontaneously.

But in outer space, there can be meters between atoms. That is a LOT of totally empty space.

 

[ratiocinator]

If you want it to be that way, its your happiness after all I suppose.

So, let's use the standard you are applying to everybody but yourself: prove to me that it is a logical fact that "everything that begins to exist has a cause". In fact I'll settle for a single, contemporary, reputable source that says that that is a part of logic, not a claim about the physical world.

 

[firedragon]

But there is NO CAUSE for the specific timing of the decay.

YEah. But without C14, there won't be any decay to even talk about. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

You are not following the argument. You are creating a caricature. That is called a strawman.