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The First Christians were not Bible Christians

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
When a person is properly baptized, they become "Jewish" in the eyes of God. They are bound to him just as much as any Jew. Did you not know that baptism was a Jewish ordinance? God can indeed raise up out of these rocks children to Abraham.

There is no record of baptism before John the Baptist was told by God to immerse people in the Jordan River as a symbol of repentance for sins against the Law of God. (Mark 1:4; John 1:33) He was preparing the way for the Messiah.

Baptism was not a "Jewish ordinance" until the time when Messiah was due to make his appearance. Jesus did not undergo John's baptism as he had no sins to repent from. Baptism became a purely Christian requirement. The Jews do not baptize anyone.

“Here’s what we want you to do. We have four men here who have completed their vow. Go with them to the Temple and join them in the purification ceremony, paying for them to have their heads ritually shaved.
Then everyone will know that the rumors are all false and that you yourself observe the Jewish laws.

“As for the Gentile believers, they should do what we already told them in a letter: They should abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”

So Paul went to the Temple the next day with the other men. They had already started the purification ritual, so he publicly announced the date when their vows would end and sacrifices would be offered for each of them.

The seven days were almost ended when some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul in the Temple and roused a mob against him. They grabbed him, yelling, “Men of Israel, help us! This is the man who preaches
against our people everywhere and tells everybody to disobey the Jewish laws. He speaks against the Temple—and even defiles this holy place by bringing in Gentiles.
(Acts 21:23-28)
On that one occasion the apostle Paul, though no longer under the Law, observed the Law’s requirements by ceremonially cleansing himself at the temple. Was this inconsistent on his part? Paul did not fight against the Law or its procedures; he merely showed that obedience to it was not divinely required for Christians. Where its procedures did not violate new Christian truths, there was no real objection to doing what God had prescribed under the Law. Paul took the action he did so that he might not needlessly hinder the Jews from listening to the good news about Jesus Christ.

1Co 9:20:
"To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) so that I might win those under the law."

The Temple at Jerusalem was the real temple. Jesus even recognized it as still the House of the Lord, when he chased out the money changers. No where in the bible is it stated that the Temple was unnecessary. In fact, the scripture you quoted would be superfluous if the Temple was unnecessary. You are making your own religion out of broadcloth.

The Temple was not a church. The Jews had churches. They called them synagogues. They met and worshiped in synagogues. The Temple was special. The Temple was sacred ground. None of the synagogues bore the name "The House of the Lord".

The earthly set up for Jewish worship was a "shadow of the things to come". The grand spiritual temple was in heaven and when Jesus went to present the value of his blood...he didn't go to the earthly temple, he went to heaven.
Heb 9:24:
"For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made by human hands, a mere copy of the true one, but he entered into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf."

He became our High Priest and this position was held by only one man. (Heb 3:1-3) Jesus never needs a successor. (Heb 9:13, 14, 25, 26)
Which prompts me to ask how you get to identify as an LDS High Priest? Jesus already has the job.

Which of all the hundreds of different bibles is the one that has been preserved? Not one autograph exists. The word has not been preserved. Mankind has done the best they can to preserve sacred verse, but has never come to any agreement on which books are sacred verse, or which version of which books is the most accurate. One could as easily - and perhaps more correctly - say that the Gospel of Phillip was preserved. Rather than be burned, it was buried to preserve it against those who would destroy sacred writ.

Since it is God's word, HE determines what it contains. Man has not been permitted to change its message despite many translations. The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm that it has been authentically preserved down to the present day as God inspired it.

So then you reject all the New Testament that was written after Galatians? Actually the verse doesn't say anything about God stopping his inspiration, or the end of sacred writ.
"Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you."​
The real question is who is teaching the "different kind of good news". The same "kind" of good news could be taught without a limit to the number of books. In fact, Mark, Luke and John all teach the same "kind" of good news mentioned by Matthew.
Again, you are making up your own religion out of broadcloth. The scriptures don't say what you think they say. They don't support a closed canon.

Only someone wishing to promote "other" scripture could say that.

You have to have faith in the testimony of one man who said he was visited by an angel and given a different kind of "good news"....you believe that Jesus didn't return to heaven at all...he went to America and invented tribes of people who never existed.

Absolutely! We call it the New Testament, all of which was written after Jesus ascended. Jesus believed in modern prophets (John the Baptist, etc.), and although he never said that his words should be added to the Old Testament, his followers certainly believed that they belonged, and were inspired by the Holy Ghost. Are you really going to argue that Jesus didn't believe in an open and expanding canon of scripture? Should we take the New Testament out of the Bible? Perish the thought.

The sacred writings of inspired scripture finished with John's Revelation. Why would we have need of "other scripture" when Revelation takes us to the present day and 1,000 years into the future?

Greek philosophers and Sadducees were among the greatest opponents of Paul's Christianity. The Sadducees didn't believe in a physical resurrection, because Moses never mentioned it. The Greeks and Romans believed that matter was evil, and therefore they too didn't believe in a physical resurrection. Paul was constantly preaching how Jesus was physically resurrected, not unlike a modern prophet that I know of.

Paul would be lying then. Jesus was not physically resurrected. The apostle Peter said he was resurrected "in the spirit". (1 Pet 3:18) He had to become a spirit to return to heaven....but I guess if you believe that he went elsewhere (something he never told his apostles) then I guess you might believe otherwise.

The priesthood is the authority to represent God. All true prophets and apostles had that authority. Do you think that the apostles taught without authority? Do you think that they baptized without authority? Some have argued that Jesus was the final High Priest, but the Didache, arguably the oldest manual of Christian practice, states that the prophets were High Priests. 1 Clement specifically mentions High Priests, Priests, and Levites in the 1st century Christian church. Jesus himself promised to send us prophets and apostles. Prophets and apostles are the foundation of Christ's church.

Certain currents of early “Christian” thought actually deviated from the teachings of Christ and his apostles. (this was foretold) For example, contrary to the practice instituted by Jesus at the Lord’s Evening Meal, known also as the Last Supper, the unknown author of The Didache advised the passing of the wine before the bread. (Matthew 26:26, 27)
This writer also stated that if no body of water was available to perform baptism by immersion, pouring water on the head of the baptism candidate would suffice. (Mark 1:9, 10; Acts 8:36, 38)
The same text encouraged Christians to observe such rituals as obligatory fasting twice a week and recitation of the Our Father exactly three times a day. (Matthew 6:5-13; Luke 18:12) So nothing apart from scripture is groundwork for me. It becomes apparent when contradictions about important things are made, that there is something amiss.
God appointed apostles, prophets and teachers in his church. They spoke with his authority. They bore his priesthood.

They were promised the role of kings and priests, but not on earth. Their roles were to be served in heaven. (Rev 20:6) Their subjects are earthly, still flesh and blood sinners, otherwise why would they need priests?

Baptism isn't a ritual? It isn't an ordinance? What possible definition could support such a statement? A ritual is a religious rite, and a rite is a ceremonial act, according to Dictionary.com. Perhaps you would like to enlighten us with your own definition that excludes baptism.

Christian baptism is the public act of dedicating oneself to God as a disciple of Jesus Christ. As you mentioned, it is a symbolic death and resurrection, dying to one's former course in life and a rising to do the will of God, as Jesus did. It is a binding promise made before witnesses....like a marriage.

The Gospel of Phillip, discovered at Nag Hammadi, dates to the early 2nd century, older than some of our New Testament books. It mentions several sacraments practiced by Christians of the day. By what authority do you declare them false?

I accept nothing as scripture that is not in the Bible canon. God directed the collection of writings HE chose to include in his word. I have faith in that.

The Catholic and Protestant bibles don't tell us what these mysteries of Paul were, and he never writes about them except obliquely. Bishop Cyril of Jerusalem wrote much more about the mysteries, but that was 300 years later. If you read the article in Wikipedia on "Chrism", you can find Cyril's comments on this early Christian sacrament.

Paul made known the sacred secrets with which he had been entrusted. (1Cor 2:1; Eph 6:19; Col 1:23; 4:3, 4)
No need to look further than accepted scripture to find the answer to all questions. As far as the Apocryphal writings are concerned, while in some cases they have certain historical value, any claim for canonicity on the part of these writings is without any solid foundation. The evidence points to a closing of the Hebrew canon following the writing of the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, and Malachi in the fifth century B.C.E.
The Apocryphal writings were never included in the Jewish canon of inspired Scriptures and do not form part of it today. That is good enough for me.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
That is a good question. I like it when people ask about things they have reasoned on. No they did not have a bible. They had over fifty different scrolls. These were the word of God. That is not to say everybody had some of these scrolls. They did gather in groups and read the scrolls. After Jesus was here, men began forming religions for money.
It was these same people who built the bible. God did not tell them to make a bible. The religions have claimed the bible is the word of God and that they copied it from the scrolls. The Bible is two different books, The Hebrew scriptures, which they had when Jesus was here, and the Greek Scriptures that was written after Jesus, which were also scrolls. Constantine, Christian Emperor of Rome, A.D. 280(?) 387 gathered all these new Christians(sic) leaders(money changers) and had them write a book, the bible for a State religion. These so-called religious leaders took only four books of the scrolls to build the Greek scriptures. They were sure to leave out all the others which showed these man made religions were false. I am a Christian. I have matched the bibe to the scrolls. The two do not match. religions claim they do. Put them side by side, and they do not. The bible is not from God. true many of the scriptures do match the scrolls, but most scriptures have been left out, others changed.
If you have a bible I suggest you try this:
Read about Enoch in, Genes 3:22, Genesis 5:24, and Hebrews 11:5 These three scriptures will tell you God loved Enoch so much, that before Enoch died of old age, God took him to heaven. Enoch wrote five books. These told what took place before the flood. He told who(my name) did what, said God would destroy the earth with water. He also told our generation what would happen. Enoch was the seventh from Adam, and the Great Grand Father of Noah. The bible shows Enoch was a good man, and God loved him. Why are are his five books not in the bible? Because all these false religions don't want people to know the truth. All these religions are tools of Satan.
You can find the books of Enoch on you tube.
I hope this helps answer some questions you have. You can go to God and ask he help you learn the truth. When you talk to God you must do it in Jesus name. it works. God will unscrew your head.
Domenic
So you consider yourself Christian but you think the Bible is corrupt? Or are you just saying religions are corrupt?
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
There is no record of baptism before John the Baptist was told by God to immerse people in the Jordan River as a symbol of repentance for sins against the Law of God. (Mark 1:4; John 1:33) He was preparing the way for the Messiah.

Baptism was not a "Jewish ordinance" until the time when Messiah was due to make his appearance. Jesus did not undergo John's baptism as he had no sins to repent from. Baptism became a purely Christian requirement. The Jews do not baptize anyone.
The act that is called baptism is virtually identical to the Jewish ritual of Tviliah where people would be ritually cleansed by immersion in water. This is described in several places in the Talmud.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The act that is called baptism is virtually identical to the Jewish ritual of Tviliah where people would be ritually cleansed by immersion in water. This is described in several places in the Talmud.

According to Wiki...."History of Baptism"

"The Christian rite of baptism has similarities to Tevilah, a Jewish purification ritual of immersing in water which is required for conversion, but differs in that Tviliah is repeatable, while baptism is to be performed only once. John the Baptist, who is considered a forerunner to Christianity, used baptism as the central sacrament of his messianic movement. Christians consider Jesus to have instituted the sacrament of baptism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_baptism

The Bible lists some 70 causes of physical uncleanness and ceremonial defilement. Among these are: contact with dead bodies (Lev 11:32-40; Num 19:11-19); contact with unclean persons or things (Lev 15:4-12, 20-24; Num 19:22); leprosy (Le 13:1-59); physical discharges of the sex organs, including emission of semen during sexual intercourse (Lev 15:1-3, 16-19, 32, 33); childbirth (Le 12:1-5); eating the flesh of unclean birds, fish, or animals (Lev 11:41-47). The priests were especially obligated to be physically as well as ceremonially clean when serving before Jehovah. (Ex 30:17-21; Lev 21:1-7; 22:2-8)

Christian baptism has nothing to do with ceremonial cleansing. Jesus underwent baptism even though he was sinless. He set the pattern for his disciples. It was the presenting of himself to do the will of his Father first in all things.

The apostle Peter made an interesting statement....after speaking about Noah being saved through the floodwaters, he said....

2 Pet 3:21
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

The only way sinners can have a good conscience before God is to be assured of forgiveness, which is only achieved by accepting Christ as the savior God sent to rescue Adam's children.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Mostly correct, but they had a welcome audience with what were called "God-Fearers", which were gentiles that believed in the "God of Abraham" but didn't convert to Judaism. This is the group and their followers that gradually appear to have taken over the movement after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in 70 c.e.

The title "Christianos" (universal) was used as a descriptor in the 2nd century, eventually becoming it's main label by the end of that century.
Quick thing here: "Katholikos" means "universal". "Christian" means "little Christ", and was applied to the followers of Jesus by the people of Antioch by the 50's or 60's AD. Otherwise, yes.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
According to Wiki...."History of Baptism"

"The Christian rite of baptism has similarities to Tevilah, a Jewish purification ritual of immersing in water which is required for conversion, but differs in that Tviliah is repeatable, while baptism is to be performed only once. John the Baptist, who is considered a forerunner to Christianity, used baptism as the central sacrament of his messianic movement. Christians consider Jesus to have instituted the sacrament of baptism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_baptism

The Bible lists some 70 causes of physical uncleanness and ceremonial defilement. Among these are: contact with dead bodies (Lev 11:32-40; Num 19:11-19); contact with unclean persons or things (Lev 15:4-12, 20-24; Num 19:22); leprosy (Le 13:1-59); physical discharges of the sex organs, including emission of semen during sexual intercourse (Lev 15:1-3, 16-19, 32, 33); childbirth (Le 12:1-5); eating the flesh of unclean birds, fish, or animals (Lev 11:41-47). The priests were especially obligated to be physically as well as ceremonially clean when serving before Jehovah. (Ex 30:17-21; Lev 21:1-7; 22:2-8)

Christian baptism has nothing to do with ceremonial cleansing. Jesus underwent baptism even though he was sinless. He set the pattern for his disciples. It was the presenting of himself to do the will of his Father first in all things.

The apostle Peter made an interesting statement....after speaking about Noah being saved through the floodwaters, he said....

2 Pet 3:21
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

The only way sinners can have a good conscience before God is to be assured of forgiveness, which is only achieved by accepting Christ as the savior God sent to rescue Adam's children.
Baptism is stated clearly in Scripture, not as a public dedication to God (which is actually done prior to being baptized), but as being for the forgiveness of sins and the renewal of the person (Romans 6, 8) as a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), and a member in His body (1 Corinthians 12:13). Baptism is not the public acceptance of Christ as one's Lord and Savior. Such an acceptance is a prerequisite to baptism, not the purpose of the baptism itself (Acts 2:37-41, 8:13 18:8)

See Acts 2:38:
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:4-7.
But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Baptism is stated clearly in Scripture, not as a public dedication to God (which is actually done prior to being baptized), but as being for the forgiveness of sins and the renewal of the person (Romans 6, 8) as a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), and a member in His body (1 Corinthians 12:13). Baptism is not the public acceptance of Christ as one's Lord and Savior. Such an acceptance is a prerequisite to baptism, not the purpose of the baptism itself (Acts 2:37-41, 8:13 18:8)

See Acts 2:38:
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:4-7.
But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I am not sure that I contradicted this Shiranui.

This is what I said.....
"The apostle Peter made an interesting statement....after speaking about Noah being saved through the floodwaters, he said....

2 Pet 3:21
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

The only way sinners can have a good conscience before God is to be assured of forgiveness, which is only achieved by accepting Christ as the savior God sent to rescue Adam's children."

Jesus most certainly did not get baptized for the forgiveness of sins.....his baptism set the pattern as a public demonstration of his dedicated service to God from that moment on. If we are baptized Christians, then we too follow in the footsteps of the Master. Our baptism is also a symbolic 'death and resurrection'.....dying to our former course and raised to do the will of God first in all things. Forgiveness doesn't come from the act of baptism but from the heart of the one making the dedication.

John's baptism (which was a public display of repentance over sins committed against the Law of God) was different to Christian baptism, Those who underwent John's baptism had to be baptized again in the name of Jesus Christ if they accepted him as Messiah.
 

Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
It's not how I define it.
A Messianic Jew is still a Jew.

But how can he be? When he is preaching against some of the teachings of the Jewish people on a religious level.

If you mean simply ethnicity wise, then that too is up for debate but there is noway Jesus would happily label himself a Jew in its entirety, considering he preached against the Jewish leaders and Rabbis of the time.
 

Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
That's ridiculous. Of course they were Jews. That's like saying some sect of Christianity that believes in some particular belief that other Christians do not are "not Christians". That point of difference gradually over many decades finally grew to the point that they split off from the parent religion into their own entity, like Buddhism split away from Hinduism. Here's another example for you. Are Sufis not Muslims?

Sects within a single religion are entirely different to comparing DIFFERENT religions.

Jesus preached against many of the teachings of the Rabbis and Jews in general at the time and things got so bad, that the Jews wanted to have him killed. Heck, the Jews DENIED him as a messenger of God. If the Jews are denying him, then how, on a religious basis, are you labeling Jesus a Jew? Do you not realise how absurd that sounds?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sects within a single religion are entirely different to comparing DIFFERENT religions. Jesus preached against many of the teachings of the Rabbis and Jews in general at the time and things got so bad, that the Jews wanted to have him killed.
Jesus preached against the hypocrisies of many of the Rabbis and their interpretations of the Law. That's very different than denying the Jewish religion. In his mind, he was not saying get rid of the Jewish religion, but rather fulfill it through the Spirit of Love. There are people in religion today who do the exact same thing as Jesus did preaching against those leaders of their religions who strain at gnats while swallowing whole camels. Are such people "outside" the religion? Or are they seeing that the religion these leaders lay claim to is not actually being followed by them?

Jesus' complaint was not against the religion, but how these leaders were practicing it. The fact the Jesus' followers after his death did not go and start up a new religion, but rather practiced it from within the Jewish synagogues, shows that they were not viewing the teachings of Jesus as outside Judaism. They were part of the religion.

Heck, the Jews DENIED him as a messenger of God. If the Jews are denying him, then how, on a religious basis, are you labeling Jesus a Jew?
I'll put it this way, if Christian leaders who spout the letter of the law over love deny and reject me because I point out their hypocrisy, and if I were close enough to them where I posed a threat to them, so much so to the point they sought to destroy me, would that make me "not a Christian" because of their hypocrisy? Or is it they who aren't?

Do you not realise how absurd that sounds?
Only because you're thinking about it backwards, letting those who say they practice the religion but aren't, be the ones to define what the religion is. Jesus didn't come to start a new religion. He came to fulfill religion.
 

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
On that one occasion the apostle Paul, though no longer under the Law, observed the Law’s requirements by ceremonially cleansing himself at the temple.
Yes, so that the people would know that he himself observed the Jewish laws. So did he, or didn't he?
"Then everyone will know that the rumors are all false and that you yourself observe the Jewish laws."

Yes, the Temple is a representation of heaven. We, unlike Christ, are not in heaven and prefer to still have this hope that God has given us. Every time I have gone to the Temple, I have felt the power of God within its walls. The peace of the Lord permeates every room. I feel it as soon as I enter the outer door, above which is title "The House of the Lord".
"For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made by human hands, a mere copy of the true one, but he entered into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf."

"To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) so that I might win those under the law."
Paul followed a higher law, not a lower law. The higher law includes the lower law. It is true that animal sacrifice was no longer required, but Paul was still expected to keep the commandments of God. He was still expected to live worthy to enter into the House of the Lord.

Hebrews 9:13 "The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean." Humm... says nothing about the priesthood...
Hebrews 9:25,26 "Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself."
Still does not say what you claim it says. It is talking about the atonement for men that Jesus suffered, not the priesthood. The animals that were sacrificed, didn't have the priesthood. Nothing here indicates that Jesus would be the last High Priest, or even what it means to be a High Priest. The whole idea of Jesus being the final High Priest is just an attempt to fill in the gaps in the Bible, while justifying the wickedness of rejecting God's servants.

Which prompts me to ask how you get to identify as an LDS High Priest? Jesus already has the job.
It's like Moses said ... It would be better if all men were prophets... Jesus would prefer all men to be High Priests.

Since it is God's word, HE determines what it contains. Man has not been permitted to change its message despite many translations. The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm that it has been authentically preserved down to the present day as God inspired it.
Actually, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the scriptures have not been preserved exactly as originally written. Of course, we already knew that because there are different versions of every Hebrew book, and every Greek book. Take for example, the Book of Isaiah. The Great Book of Isaiah, discovered at Qumran, sometimes agrees with the KJV, sometimes with the Vulgate, and sometimes with the version in the Book of Mormon.

Certain currents of early “Christian” thought actually deviated from the teachings of Christ and his apostles.
That is true. In fact, it is probable that all of them did. That is what happens when a religious movement is hunted almost to extinction, and is forced to meet in secret, without any governing authority. Heresies creep in. That is why we need a prophet of God, someone who has the authority of God, and the voice of God, who can keep the heresies at bay.
You have to have faith in the testimony of one man who said he was visited by an angel and given a different kind of "good news"....you believe that Jesus didn't return to heaven at all...he went to America and invented tribes of people who never existed.
No, that's not what we believe at all. Jesus ascended to heaven. Stephen saw the resurrected Christ standing next to God. Jesus returned, and visited the Nephites, who were already a tribe, almost a year later. He fulfilled his promise, that he would visit his "other sheep" which were not of the Jewish fold.

The sacred writings of inspired scripture finished with John's Revelation. Why would we have need of "other scripture" when Revelation takes us to the present day and 1,000 years into the future?
The Bible never pretends that God would suddenly stop speaking after Revelations. That is total nonsense. The Book of Revelations itself tells us of latter-day prophets. God won't do anything without first revealing his word to his prophets.
Why would we need further revelation? Well, let's see... he told Joseph Smith that many plain and precious things had been lost, and needed to be restored. That sounds like a good reason to me.

Christian baptism is the public act of dedicating oneself to God as a disciple of Jesus Christ. As you mentioned, it is a symbolic death and resurrection, dying to one's former course in life and a rising to do the will of God, as Jesus did. It is a binding promise made before witnesses....like a marriage.
That is the very definition of an ordinance or ritual.

I accept nothing as scripture that is not in the Bible canon. God directed the collection of writings HE chose to include in his word. I have faith in that.
You have yet to tell us which is the Bible canon which is the one true bible canon. Certainly the Gospel of Phillip was in someone's Bible canon... How do you know which canon is the most true? Popular vote?

Paul made known the sacred secrets with which he had been entrusted. (1Cor 2:1; Eph 6:19; Col 1:23; 4:3, 4)
1 Corinthians 2:1 "And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God."
His testimony about God was not a secret.
Ephesians 6:19 "Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel,"
The mystery of the gospel is not the same thing as the gospel mysteries, and he never suggests that he will write them down. They are not found in the Bible.
Colossians 1:23) "if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."
He is talking about the gospel, which was preached to the Corinthians, but not the mysteries, which were withheld.
Colossians 4:3 "And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains."
Here again, the "mystery of Christ" is not the gospel mysteries. He taught the Corinthians about the "mystery of Christ". They weren't ready for the meat of the gospel, or the gospel mysteries. He taught them that Christ suffered an atonement for all mankind, and that he physically resurrected from the dead, but that mystery is not the secret doctrines that he kept only for the worthy initiates. He taught the gospel basics, including the resurrection, to everyone.

Some things Paul only spoke to the "mature".

"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing."
"No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began."
"None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."
1 Corinthians 2:6-8

It was only taught to the "mature". The rulers of the Jews knew the mysteries, but didn't understand them.

"However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God."
"For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."
"What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us."
"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words."
1 Corinthians 2:9-13

The mysteries were about "the things that God has prepared for those who love him". They were taught by the Spirit of the Holy Ghost, and not by scripture reading. Human language was insufficient! New words needed to be made to explain spiritual concepts.

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."
"The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ."
"Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly--mere infants in Christ."
"I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready."
1 Corinthians 2:14-3:2

So Paul couldn't teach the mysteries to the Corinthians - he could only teach the basics. They were mere infants in Christ.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
So , in scripture there is a verse that says " by faith we are saved, not by works. " Another scripture says that " faith without works is dead. As the body without the soul is dead ,so is faith without works". This type of thing happens a lot.

So when there are two scripture verses that say the opposite , who do we turn to to know the correct explanation?

If so many Scriptures lead people to opposite conclusions, by what authority do you know you correctly interpret the verses used to attack the Church?
These Scriptures do not contradict each other! Individuals can perform good works: they don't steal or cheat when tempted, avoid fornication when tempted, and help others (I know many atheists who are this way), but that doesn't mean they have faith....maybe they are just good people. Or, maybe for some, their motives are to get attention.

However, a person having faith in God and Jesus, will also do these kinds of things -- even more so, because their faith and desire to please God, moves them to!

I think you'll agree, Scripture never contradicts itself. It's only contradictory to the person who doesn't understand -- or want to understand -- what it's really saying.

BTW, the passage you quoted -- James 2:26 -- says "body without spirit", not soul. Big difference.

Douay Rheims: "For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead."
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
These Scriptures do not contradict each other! Individuals can perform good works: they don't steal or cheat when tempted, avoid fornication when tempted, and help others (I know many atheists who are this way), but that doesn't mean they have faith....maybe they are just good people.
Maybe they do have faith, because as Jesus says an evil tree cannot bear good fruit. If they are choosing through themselves to do good, not through the threats of an external authority in their lives, then what is in their hearts shows faith that good is the better path. That to me is what faith means, not what someone believes about truth claims. Faith is the condition of the heart, and as James says actions speak louder than words when it comes to claiming faith.

Or, maybe for some, their motives are to get attention.
That seems to be more descriptive of a Christian's possible motivation than any atheist.

However, a person having faith in God and Jesus, will also do these kinds of things -- even more so, because their faith and desire to please God, moves them to!
Wrong. If they are doing it to please God, to make him happy with what they are doing for him, they are doing it for their own reward, not because they are acting out of love from within themselves. The focus is on themselves. This is what leads to the self-deception they have faith, when in reality they have not yet internalized Love in themselves. What pleases God is one simply acts in accord with Love.

So when it comes to the atheist, if he chooses out of his own heart to do good for another his motivation is pure. It is untainted by trying to make God smile on him by trying to "please God". It is they that are more the Christian than the Christian who claims "beliefs" is what defines faith.

I think you'll agree, Scripture never contradicts itself. It's only contradictory to the person who doesn't understand -- or want to understand -- what it's really saying.
One could argue more easily that those who refuse to acknowledge the contradictions are the ones not wanting to understand. They are far more well-motivated to be in denial of something that challenges their beliefs - such as the belief in the modern doctrine of Biblical inerrancy. You know, it is possible to have faith while accepting the Bible has errors in it?

I'll ask you this question. If you came to terms with the fact that the Bible has errors and contradictions in it, would you lose your faith in God? Is it possible your faith would grow if you had to change your beliefs about things, such as the modern doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy, or would it crumple? If it did, I'd say it never was faith. It was something else. Let me ask it another way. Does faith to you mean having no doubts? Does faith mean the opposite of doubt to you?
 
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katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN

I only have access to a phone and so consequently it is a lot easier and quicker To say what I want to say and for you to better know where I'm coming from to just make a YouTube.

There are some questions I would like for Bible Christians to answer, but anyone is free to comment of course.

The First Christians were not Bible Christians, and that actually is not even up for debate. It is obvious both from a Biblical and Historical view that they were not, but is also very clear to anyone who has a basic ability to think rationally or reason.

I've never heard of a Bible christian. I am a a Bible believing christian.

The word Bible simply means book. The word christian means a follower of Christ.

The first christians believed in the Scriptures, and they believed in Jesus. Should they have called themselves Scripture christians? I think not.

So what exactly is it you are trying to say in your OP?
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
I couldn't agree with you more. :)

I don't know that I'm right ,neither do I know that the church is right. Yet so many Protestants claim to know who is saved and who is Damned, (myself included,) because "the Holy Bible says"

By showing them their errors I hope that it will get them to stop judging people and be humble. It doesn't mean I have the truth.
None of us can say who is or is not saved. Only the Lord can see the hearts of men.

However, what we should be saying is what the Scriptures say. Idolaters, thiefs, murderers, liars, etc. will not enter the kingdom of heaven. That is not being judgemental. This is what the word of God says. The word does the judging.
 

McBell

Unbound
I've never heard of a Bible christian. I am a a Bible believing christian.

The word Bible simply means book. The word christian means a follower of Christ.

The first christians believed in the Scriptures, and they believed in Jesus. Should they have called themselves Scripture christians? I think not.

So what exactly is it you are trying to say in your OP?
He explained a few posts into the thread that he means Bible Only Christians, meaning sola scriptura-ists.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
However, what we should be saying is what the Scriptures say. Idolaters, thiefs, murderers, liars, etc. will not enter the kingdom of heaven. That is not being judgemental. This is what the word of God says. The word does the judging.
So, are you saying that God cannot or would not forgive those of their sins?
 
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