The first truth told by Bush administration: We Lost Iraq War

[greatcalgarian]

US 'not winning conflict in Iraq'

Robert Gates said he would speak his mind


Gates' views on Iraq
US Defence Secretary nominee Robert Gates has told a Senate committee that the US is not winning the war in Iraq.
Mr Gates told a confirmation hearing he was open to new ideas on Iraq, but warned the situation there would shape the Middle East for years to come.

The committee approved him to replace Donald Rumsfeld, who quit last month amid criticism of his Iraq policy.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6209356.stm

So are we now ready to see another withdrawal like the Vietnam, with all those poor Iraqi supporting the US trying to cling onto leaving helicopters?

America's involvement in Vietnam gradually escalated from 1945 to 1975. Historians debate over why America even got involved in Vietnam, however it is often explained by America believing it should fight against Vietnam because of what the Southeast Asian country stood for - Communism. Many believe if Vietnam fell to communism it would only be enforcing Eisenhower's domino theory. Kennedy's presidency saw an increased commitment to Vietnam with 12,000 advisors by 1962 and increased equipment. Under LBJ, Vietnam had around 200,000 US troops by 1965 . However, 1966 had increased domestic opposition to American involvement in Vietnam and as the war continued further, opposition to it grew. Although to what extent the lack of public support was the main factor to America `losing' the war is greatly debated. Whilst public opinion can be argued to be the most important reason for initial troop withdrawal in June 1969 to quieten opposition , other factors remain important. This includes America's military mistakes, North Vietnams strengths as opposed to South Vietnams weaknesses, and Presidential restraints and retreat.

http://whirlwind.he.net/~ercarlso/student/Vietnam_Essay_Public_Opinion_the_US_withdrawal.html
Fall of Saigon

Vietnamese civilians scramble to board an Air America helicopter during Operation Frequent WindMain article: Fall of Saigon
Chaos, unrest, and panic ensued as hysterical South Vietnamese officials and civilians scrambled to leave Saigon before it was too late. American helicopters began evacuating both U.S. and South Vietnamese citizens from the U.S. embassy. The evacuations had been delayed until the last possible moment due to U.S. Ambassador Graham Martin's belief that Saigon could be held and that a political settlement was still possible. The evacuations began in an atmosphere of desperation as hysterical crowds of Vietnamese vied for the limited number of seats available on the departing helicopters. Martin pleaded with the U.S. government to send $700 million in emergency aid to South Vietnam in order to bolster the Saigon regime's ability to fight and mobilize fresh military units, but it was to no avail.

In the U.S., South Vietnam was now perceived as doomed. President Ford had given a televised speech on 23 April declaring the end of both the Vietnam War and of all U.S. aid to the Saigon regime. The helicopter evacuations continued day and night as North Vietnamese tanks breached the defenses on the outskirts of the city. In the early morning hours of 30 April, the last U.S. Marines evacuated the embassy roof by helicopter as civilians poured over the embassy perimeter and swarmed onto its grounds.

 

[Ody]

We lost =/= we are not winning.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I hate to say "I told you so"... but you know I did.

We need to get out now.

There is nothing we can do for these people that they can't do themselves. It's time to depart.

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

i don't thank that this is the frist truth coming from the white house, i thank its the frist beliveable one...

 

[greatcalgarian]

We lost =/= we are not winning.

We won =/= we are not losing

Actually he did clarify that point later after he realized his two words reply may convey too negative a meaning

Asked by the next chairman of the panel, Democratic Senator Carl Levin, if he believed the US was winning, Mr Gates replied: "No, Sir."

He later said he believed the US was neither winning nor losing, "at this point".

 

[spacemonkey]

There was never any way to "win" this war, unless you are one of the many recipiants of no bid contracts for supplies, munitions, or rebuilding of things destroyed with said munitions.

 

[Mathematician]

I wonder what the Democrats' faces were like when they heard Mr. Gates say that.

I'm thinking more than one were struggling to suppress a smile. Though I do have a feeling this was rehearsed.

 

[dawny0826]

I don't really think that this was ever really a war to be won or lost...

 

[greatcalgarian]

I don't really think that this was ever really a war to be won or lost...

What is this war for then?

 

[ayani]

What is this war for then?

that's an excellent question.

WMD? liberating Iraq from Saddam? creating a better country for Iraqis? oil? has anyone actually told us?

 

[Scott1]

What is this war for then?

Money.

Defense contracts etc..... we gotta test out the "new stuff" every few years.

I was in Panama for the first stealth bomber action= we put a 1,000 lb. bomb into a residence. Ooops!

F15 undefeated in air combat -----> get rid of em! We need some billion dollar Raptors!

Oh well... the rich do get richer, as they say.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Money.

Defense contracts etc..... we gotta test out the "new stuff" every few years.

I was in Panama for the first stealth bomber action= we put a 1,000 lb. bomb into a residence. Ooops!

F15 undefeated in air combat -----> get rid of em! We need some billion dollar Raptors!

Oh well... the rich do get richer, as they say.

So does the US make more money or lose more money over Iraq war?

If US made more money, then the war is considered as victory. If reverse, then the war is lost.

 

[Scott1]

So does the US make more money or lose more money over Iraq war?

It's obviously just my opinion... but it has nothing to do if the US makes money... it's if BUSINESS makes money.... and they are making LOADS of it.

The money "lost" is taxpayer money.... much of that money being put back in the hands of Bush cronies who are the real force behind the US/war/etc...

 

[greatcalgarian]

It's obviously just my opinion... but it has nothing to do if the US makes money... it's if BUSINESS makes money.... and they are making LOADS of it.

The money "lost" is taxpayer money.... much of that money being put back in the hands of Bush cronies who are the real force behind the US/war/etc...

Fair enough. That is a good perspective view on war.

Malay has a proverb: "Gajah-gajah bergadoh, pelanduk mati di tengah-tengah"
meaning literally when "Elephants fight each other, the mouse deer will die trapped in between". So you are absolutely correct in your observation of money in this war business. Frubals to you.

 

[Scott1]

Thanks my friend... like I said... it's just my opinion.... but 10 years in the Army (3 of which spent of the staff of 4 Star General Maxwell Thurman CINC-ATL) gave me some "perspective" that most don't have. Most Commanders know several Defense Contractors by name.... if you know what I mean.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Thanks my friend... like I said... it's just my opinion.... but 10 years in the Army (3 of which spent of the staff of 4 Star General Maxwell Thurman CINC-ATL) gave me some "perspective" that most don't have. Most Commanders know several Defense Contractors by name.... if you know what I mean.

The Night Before Christmas

T'was the night before Christmas, He lived all alone,
In a one bedroom house, Made of plaster and stone.
I had come down the chimney, With presents to give,
And to see just who, In this home did live.

I looked all about, A strange sight I did see,
No tinsel, no presents, Not even a tree.

No stocking by the mantle, Just boots filled with sand,
On the wall hung pictures, Of far distant lands.

With medals and badges, Awards of all kinds,
A sober thought, Came through my mind.

For this house was different, It was dark and dreary,
I found the home of a soldier, Once I could see clearly.

The soldier lay sleeping, Silent, alone,
Curled up on the floor, In this one bedroom home.

The face was so gentle, The room in such disorder,
Not how I pictured, A Canadian soldier.

Was this the hero, Of whom I'd just read?,
Curled up on a poncho, The floor for a bed?

I realized the families, That I saw this night,
Owed their lives to these soldiers, Who were willing to fight.

Soon round the world, The children would play,
And grownups would celebrate, A bright Christmas day.

They all enjoyed freedom, Each month of the year,
Because of the soldiers, Like the one lying here.

I couldn't help wonder, How many lay alone,
On a cold Christmas eve, In a land far from home.

The very thought brought, A tear to my eye,
I dropped to my knees,And started to cry.

The soldier awakened, And I heard a rough voice,
"Santa, don't cry, This life is my choice.

I fight for freedom, I don't ask for more,
My life is my god, My country, my corps."

The soldier rolled over, And drifted to sleep,
I couldn't control it, I continued to weep.

I kept watch for hours, So silent and still,
And we both shivered, From the cold night's chill.

I didn't want to leave, On that cold, dark night,
This guardian of honour, So willing to fight.

Then the soldier rolled over, With a voice, soft and pure,
Whispered, "carry on Santa, It's Christmas day, all is secure."

One look at my watch, And I knew he was right,
"Merry Christmas my friend, And to all a good night."



This poem was written by a peace keeping soldier stationed overseas.

The following is his request. I think it is reasonable.

PLEASE. Would you do me the kind favour of sending this to as many people as you can? Christmas will be coming soon and some credit is due to our Canadian service men and women for our being able to celebrate these festivities. Let's try in this small way to pay a tiny bit of what we owe. Make people stop and think of our heroes, living and dead, who sacrificed themselves for us.

Please, do your small part to plant this small seed.

 

[Scuba Pete]

So does the US make more money or lose more money over Iraq war?

This is Haliburton's war: they make the real money here. Shrub and his gang get the results of the "Trickle Down Effect" of those windfalls.

 

[michel]

that's an excellent question.

WMD? liberating Iraq from Saddam? creating a better country for Iraqis? oil? has anyone actually told us?

Being an idealist, I always considered that the waqr was to relieve the downtrodden people of Iraq from a murdering and despicable leader; one who proved the saying "Absolute power corrupts".

 

[Scuba Pete]

Being an idealist, I always considered that the waqr was to relieve the downtrodden people of Iraq from a murdering and despicable leader; one who proved the saying "Absolute power corrupts".

Michel... I love you brother but...

Haliburton's war was precitpitated because Shrub could not find Osama and they needed a war to retain power. The excuse? WMDs. No more and no less was proffered by Shrub and his cronies. Often, the excuse comes up that we attacked out of retaliation. That only washes for Afghanistan. The excuses for the war are shams. They were designed to delude the American public into supporting an aggressive act that we had no business getting into.

 

[retrorich]

I don't really think that this was ever really a war to be won or lost...

Then what would you say the purpose was?