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The fittest survive

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
If life is about "Survival of the fittest", surely, we need to worry about our own survival ?... survival of the human being.

Medical science has, for some while, been responsible for the survival of some of the most unfit babies born; I think we can accept that many of these babies would have died some 50 years ago. Equally, that same science has ensured the survival of the elderly (for whom, equally, their life would have ended prematurely. Now, these people are living very much longer than they would have previously done so.

In no way am I being judgemental about the above; I am merely observing the reality of our modern life.

But a thought crossed my mind; are we humans becoming "diluted" in the qualities that made us "the fittest", so that our survival was guaranteed, here upon Earth?

What of all the other creatures that share our Earth? - are they not becoming "fitter"? - will our intervention in our own nature (by means of our own fast growing improvements in medical science) make us weaker, whilst the rest of the occupants of our planet are becoming stronger?

Is this logical, or not? - if not, then, why not?
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
"Survival of the Fittest" does not mean only the strong survive. Being fit for survival can mean a species can hide well, or can develop ways to ensure weaker members, such as the young or old, can survive. By doing so, we ensure the proliferation of our species.
Remember, the shark may be the fittest predator in the sea, but plankton is the the most abundant life and therefore, the fittest for survival as a species.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
For humans, part of what makes us "fit" for survival is our teamwork. It's the social groups, willingness to help each other, etc.

I do think there's a good chance that medical science will reduce overall health of the population in several areas, though.

For example, if certain birth defects once meant that an individual would not reproduce due to not surviving long enough, but now medical science allows them to live and reproduce, then we've removed the part where this unfit characteristic would have eliminated itself. Instead, it could now endlessly propagate through generations if it's something that can be genetically inherited. Multiply that example by a few thousand of the most common birth problems, and we'd have a scenario where birth defects are far more likely to occur because they're not selecting themselves out of the chain of reproduction and instead are being corrected or lived with once they occur. We then become a species with countless problems and countless solutions for those problems, rather than a species that has relatively few problems.

That may continue until humans have better technology to directly change genes, where they can start optimizing human biology. But then that opens all sorts of other problems that movies like Gattaca explore.
 

Musty

Active Member
Our survival as a species could potentially be enhanced as decreased mortality across the board increases both genetic and behavioral diversity within the population. The more diversity within a species, the more options evolutionary pressures have to select from in the future.

Look at how sickle cell anaemia has persisted in populations because of the protection it offers against malaria despite it ultimately weakening the individual. No doubt there are countless examples of weaknesses which turn out to offer some kind of benefit under the right circumstances.

Evolutionary success does not depend on being the strongest out there. There are many species which are currently extremely strong within their environment that are unlikely to survive climate change because they lack the diversity to adapt to new challenges which they face.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I dunno, if we where to look at earth under a microscope, humans would look like a cancer that needs to be eliminated.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
It's not logical at all.

Whoever came up with the oversimplified maxim "survival of the fittest" and spread it around as actually representing what evolutionary theory is about needs to be kicked in the head. It's wrong. If they put one more word on that incorrect maxim it would be worlds closer to at least partly representing the truth. That word is "enough." Evolution is not, and never has been, about survival of the fittest. It is about survival of the fit enough. Plus a whole bunch of other things that make the maxim still overlook more than half of the evolutionary equation even with adding that one word. But at least adding that one word makes it a true statement about a portion of the theory instead of blatantly wrong.

At any rate, clearly with seven billion of us overpopulating the planet, there is no problem with our survival and reproductive capacity. Frankly, even if we were "weakening" ourselves, the world could do quite fine with a lot fewer humans.
 

TurkeyOnRye

Well-Known Member
For humans, part of what makes us "fit" for survival is our teamwork. It's the social groups, willingness to help each other, etc.

I do think there's a good chance that medical science will reduce overall health of the population in several areas, though.

For example, if certain birth defects once meant that an individual would not reproduce due to not surviving long enough, but now medical science allows them to live and reproduce, then we've removed the part where this unfit characteristic would have eliminated itself. Instead, it could now endlessly propagate through generations if it's something that can be genetically inherited. Multiply that example by a few thousand of the most common birth problems, and we'd have a scenario where birth defects are far more likely to occur because they're not selecting themselves out of the chain of reproduction and instead are being corrected or lived with once they occur. We then become a species with countless problems and countless solutions for those problems, rather than a species that has relatively few problems.

That may continue until humans have better technology to directly change genes, where they can start optimizing human biology. But then that opens all sorts of other problems that movies like Gattaca explore.

What I see happening is a dramatic increase in specialization among members of our species. In a sense, the "unfit" are perfectly fit to secure a niche in their new environment (the developed world).

You're totally spot-on, Penumbra. That is exactly what is going on. For example, we are already seeing an increase in prevalence of cystic fibrosis in the general population simply because those individuals with the (genetically inherited) disease are living much longer lives. A hundred years ago, CF individuals simply died during childhood. They didn't even have a chance. Yet at the same time, biological science is absolutely booming, and some variants of the disease can be effectively treated with medication that restores function to the defective protein associated with the disorder.
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
In the United States taxpayers have to confront a difficult reality based on some principles espoused in the OP. As it currently stands, Medicare (government provided health care for the elderly and certain disabled) is the second largest black hole behind our military budget. More money is spent on Medicare than many health care budgets in Europe. One of the main reasons is an open-door policy. Doctors are given pretty much a blank check to perform a bunch of operations if there's a possibility it can remedy or cure an illness.

This money is being funneled out of the impoverished youth who (I believe) deserve the medical attention much more than someone who is 80 years old and hanging on by a thread. This sounds callous, but it's a fact of life that the money can only be spent on one person, not both.

You can view this as an example of emphasizing strength and fitness.
 
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Alex_G

Enlightner of the Senses
If life is about "Survival of the fittest", surely, we need to worry about our own survival ?... survival of the human being.

Medical science has, for some while, been responsible for the survival of some of the most unfit babies born; I think we can accept that many of these babies would have died some 50 years ago. Equally, that same science has ensured the survival of the elderly (for whom, equally, their life would have ended prematurely. Now, these people are living very much longer than they would have previously done so.

In no way am I being judgemental about the above; I am merely observing the reality of our modern life.

But a thought crossed my mind; are we humans becoming "diluted" in the qualities that made us "the fittest", so that our survival was guaranteed, here upon Earth?

What of all the other creatures that share our Earth? - are they not becoming "fitter"? - will our intervention in our own nature (by means of our own fast growing improvements in medical science) make us weaker, whilst the rest of the occupants of our planet are becoming stronger?

Is this logical, or not? - if not, then, why not?

I used to think about this when i was younger, and it reminds me of that joke 'evolution of man' poster where after the erect homosapien, and the man in the suit, there’s a fat couch potato, with the only physical attribute improving being index finger dexterity for tv remote use.

We must remember that 'fitness' is a relative term, and it only means something in relation to the environment that has the respective selection pressure. With an ever changing environment, you can’t really stick to some rigid preconceived notion of what it means to 'be fit'.

It’s true that many people today live thanks to medical and technical advances, who would otherwise have perished in an era that lacked such. But if one understands the term fitness in relation to environment then you could argue that these ailments aren’t really examples of 'unfit' people anymore, if they indeed go on to live decent lives and have families.
In a way the 2 forces working are that of an individual human in the propagation of his/her own genes, and that of humanity as a collective promoting its own continued existence and development. Human kind have through intellect, communication and teamwork redefined those selection pressures in which we live by modifying the environment, so that old examples of 'unfit' have become increasingly diminished and irrelevant. This is in a way an example of an overarching 'fitness' of the species being demonstrated.

Now i would agree that if one removes too much challenge /selection pressure then certain attributes that we might desire, particularly physical ones might get diluted down in the population and thus be less pronounced. Note that i describe them as desirable characteristics rather than 'fitness', as if their lack of presence does not really interfere with reproduction and propagation in todays environment its not really 'fitness'.

Additionally by the manipulation of our environment, especially so radically and quickly as we have done with respects to evolutionary timelines, one could worry that we risk actively damaging ourselves rather than simply risking stifling improvement or allowing for increased proportions of undersirable characteristics. Such an example might be diabetes, and how millions of years of evolution has wired us to cope with periods of starvation very well, but not to deal with over eating and high sugar diets, thus introducing new ailments born out of our own manipulations. But then again, such a new selection pressure also may lead to emergence of a new 'fittness' relevent to todays environment, both in genetic fitness aswell and educational and technological.

However the human body and human kind as a whole are very complex entities. They dont fully adhere to simple cause and effect models we have come accustomed to in explanatory ventures.

When we talk of ailments that humankind encounter, it’s not a progressive funnel of decline with one leading to worse and worse on some fixed scale, but rather its a dynamic state with some ailments sometimes being the gateway to new solutions and improvements. Often highly unpredictable, simple variety and diversity even if it contains more individual 'ill's’ might be stronger than a more uniform 'healthy' population. Again this all relates to an ever changing and equally unpredictable environment. An example of an ill being coincidently beneficial is that of sickle cell anaemia being protective in areas of high malaria prevalence.
I think we still have a long way to go in effectively modelling these complex systems, and improving our understanding and ability to make predictions.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Generally the only attribute of Man is his thinking ability.

But numbers are increasing and this planet....supposedly... can support only 9billion people.

I think I shall live long enough to see the test of who is fit...and who isn't.
 

Musty

Active Member
Generally the only attribute of Man is his thinking ability.

But numbers are increasing and this planet....supposedly... can support only 9billion people.

I think I shall live long enough to see the test of who is fit...and who isn't.

I'm not sure surviving a population crash has that much to do with fitness. I think that luck will play a much larger role in deciding who lives and dies.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not sure surviving a population crash has that much to do with fitness. I think that luck will play a much larger role in deciding who lives and dies.

Surviving a population crash has everything to do with fitness. It's adaptation to a changing environment at its finest. The organism either succeeds or fails, based on its abilities or those of its tribe. Acausal supernaturalistic phenomena like "luck" have no place in science. Chance and probability do, but luck absolutely does not.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
In the United States taxpayers have to confront a difficult reality based on some principles espoused in the OP. As it currently stands, Medicare (government provided health care for the elderly and certain disabled) is the second largest black hole behind our military budget. More money is spent on Medicare than many health care budgets in Europe.
I got the impression that it was so much more expensive because you're doing it wrong, i.e. private "health insurance" even being a thing.
 

Musty

Active Member
Surviving a population crash has everything to do with fitness. It's adaptation to a changing environment at its finest. The organism either succeeds or fails, based on its abilities or those of its tribe. Acausal supernaturalistic phenomena like "luck" have no place in science. Chance and probability do, but luck absolutely does not.

I'm using the word luck interchangeably with chance like it's normally used.

Whether or not you find yourself in a place where the local changing conditions are survivable or not is largely down to chance. I personally feel that the role of fitness/selection is often overstated in circumstances where fitness is not a deciding factor in a persons or groups survival.

For example a likely consequence of a population crash is the collapse of a countries infrastructure. What does it have to do with a persons fitness if they die because they happen to live in a remote arid location and end up dying of dehydration because the water supply stops?

Would the astronauts dying in orbit because no more supplies are sent to them an indication of low fitness?

I agree that fitness does have a role to play but only in situations where it actually can influence a persons chance of survival.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Fitness has a very different meaning in an artificially selected environment.

Medical care and such actually represents an evolution in fitness, remember that the unit of selection isn't necessarily the individual. Modern medicine = increasingly fit populations.

In otherwords, healthcare and less harsh artificial environs are an expression of fitness.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
If life is about "Survival of the fittest", surely, we need to worry about our own survival ?... survival of the human being.

Medical science has, for some while, been responsible for the survival of some of the most unfit babies born; I think we can accept that many of these babies would have died some 50 years ago. Equally, that same science has ensured the survival of the elderly (for whom, equally, their life would have ended prematurely. Now, these people are living very much longer than they would have previously done so.

In no way am I being judgemental about the above; I am merely observing the reality of our modern life.

But a thought crossed my mind; are we humans becoming "diluted" in the qualities that made us "the fittest", so that our survival was guaranteed, here upon Earth?

What of all the other creatures that share our Earth? - are they not becoming "fitter"? - will our intervention in our own nature (by means of our own fast growing improvements in medical science) make us weaker, whilst the rest of the occupants of our planet are becoming stronger?

Is this logical, or not? - if not, then, why not?

I do not think so. I was told once that in an ancient society, new borne below certain weight were not allowed to live. We would not have Stephen Hawking under such conditions.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Mine as well be called survival of the randomly selected individuals whose attributes can provide energy and reproduce regardless of yet another random occurrence of entropic environments changing.
 
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