• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The flaws in Intelligent design

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
No supposedly. It was an epic failure. They used to claim certain traits showed "irrefutable complexity". Every example was show to not be that complex.
Clotting system with reduced components were found. Molecular motors with reduced components were found. All Behe had to do was look to nature and he would not have been stuck in a court case having to admit that he cannot test for IR.

The fact that it would be impossible to test every possible iteration of these so called 'irreducible' structures and systems means that IR cannot be demonstrated.
 
They claimed that the bacterial flagellum could not evolve on its own since it you took out a part it would no longer work. That was wrong.

No, if you take out any VITAL parts, it does not work any more.

Just like our bodies, if you take off a finger, youl be ok, but if you take out your heart, your dead.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
The evidence for intelligence is in our world. It is there. You just dont see it. I see it. If you dont see it, oh well.
This is a statement of belief. You are giving your subjective opinion. It is not a scientific conclusion that is defensible based on careful analysis.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
No, if you take out any VITAL parts, it does not work any more.

Just like our bodies, if you take off a finger, youl be ok, but if you take out your heart, your dead.
Except that it was shown that for each of the claimed examples of IR, reduced systems already existed.

Do you know what IR means? Maybe you could explain each example and why they should be accepted as fact. Please show us how they cannot be further reduced so that no ancestral condition could exist where reduced systems or structures would have some function.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Its a load of crap because you dont support any of those straeman attacks on ID.

Thus its worthy of being called a load of crap.
No I just give evidence for the support of evolution while ID gives worthless objections without support. Give the example - any example that is without doubt evidence that ID is the explanation. As for evolution there is the phylogenetic progression of gene complexity. The evidence that mutations in genes that control genetic expression have profound influence on expression and can occur without an intelligent designer. Progressive fossil evidence with respective geological strata confirmed with dating analysis. And lets not forget that the so called ID would have to be constantly adjusting the genetic code which would be evidence as clear changed in the genetic code unexplainable by natural factors which there is no evidence for. So before you make desperate claims using words like crap you better have something to back them up with.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
This statement is your belief.
No. It is a statement of fact. You cannot demonstrate your belief. You could have 100 people review the same thing that you are claiming is evidence and potentially have 100 different subjective opinions about what it means. That is not science. That is belief.

I do not think you are ever going to understand.
 
No. It is a statement of fact. You cannot demonstrate your belief. You could have 100 people review the same thing that you are claiming is evidence and potentially have 100 different subjective opinions about what it means. That is not science. That is belief.

I do not think you are ever going to understand.

Its a belief based on evidence for the thousanth time.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
The evidence for intelligence is in our world. It is there. You just dont see it. I see it. If you dont see it, oh well.
The evidence for evolution is in out world supported with evidence which you ignore because of your wish for there to be intelligent design to justify your existence. The evidence however supports evolution instead and you cannot give any evidence to support ID. You can believe whatever you want but it is not based one what is real in our world but only real in what you want to believe.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
They claimed that the bacterial flagellum could not evolve on its own since it you took out a part it would no longer work. That was wrong.
My favorite example refuting irreducible complexity was Kenneth Miller's destruction of the mouse trap example by removing parts and using the reduced form as a functional tie clip.
 
No I just give evidence for the support of evolution while ID gives worthless objections without support. Give the example - any example that is without doubt evidence that ID is the explanation. As for evolution there is the phylogenetic progression of gene complexity. The evidence that mutations in genes that control genetic expression have profound influence on expression and can occur without an intelligent designer. Progressive fossil evidence with respective geological strata confirmed with dating analysis. And lets not forget that the so called ID would have to be constantly adjusting the genetic code which would be evidence as clear changed in the genetic code unexplainable by natural factors which there is no evidence for. So before you make desperate claims using words like crap you better have something to back them up with.

Look, natural selection or survival of the fittest and mutations and adaptations, none of that account for the ARRIVAL of the fittest and the ARRIVAL of informational code in the first place.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Look, natural selection or survival of the fittest and mutations and adaptations, none of that account for the ARRIVAL of the fittest and the ARRIVAL of informational code in the first place.
Yes they do. We have current evidence for this and it has already been presented. The genetic code has the capacity to create variation and those variations that give advantage are selected. Simple yet effective. Our very ecological environments show the complex relationships that give the pressure for natural selection and thus alter the genetic sequences towards the phenotypic presentations that survive better. This by itself has lead to increasing complexity that favors survival. No need for an intelligent designer when ecological demands are sufficient to explain what has happened. No need to introduce something impossible to prove when all that is needed is already here.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
And you know how to spell too!
He and I are so much alike, I would not be doing him justice to misspell his name.

I understand that Collins has opinions about his religion, but I also understand that they are not his scientific opinions. It is too bad that not everyone can understand that.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Oh hogwash..over the multitude of days on this thread ive given the evidence, and i havent even given all of it.
You have not given anything that cannot be explained by natural forces. What is your very best evidence that is undeniably intelligent design. We already know that the genetic code is changed and influenced by natural factors so you have to do better than just say DNA. Research has already shown how the pyrimidine base pairs developed in the prolife earth and there is evidence how they would polymerize to form sequences. So what is you very vest evidence?
 
Yes they do. We have current evidence for this and it has already been presented. The genetic code has the capacity to create variation and those variations that give advantage are selected.

That dont account for the ARRIVAL of information in the first place. Why dont you see this? This should be so easy to see.

How can you select what isnt there yet? Selection dont account for whats not there yet. Come on, common sense!

Simple yet effective. Our very ecological environments show the complex relationships that give the pressure for natural selection and thus alter the genetic sequences towards the phenotypic presentations that survive better. This by itself has lead to increasing complexity that favors survival. No need for an intelligent designer when ecological demands are sufficient to explain what has happened. No need to introduce something impossible to prove when all that is needed is already here.

Selection and adaptation dont account for the arrival. You cant have selection and adaptation BEFORE the arrival of the organism first!
 
He and I are so much alike, I would not be doing him justice to misspell his name.

I understand that Collins has opinions about his religion, but I also understand that they are not his scientific opinions. It is too bad that not everyone can understand that.

So collins has two oposite opinions? Lol
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes they do. We have current evidence for this and it has already been presented. The genetic code has the capacity to create variation and those variations that give advantage are selected. Simple yet effective. Our very ecological environments show the complex relationships that give the pressure for natural selection and thus alter the genetic sequences towards the phenotypic presentations that survive better. This by itself has lead to increasing complexity that favors survival. No need for an intelligent designer when ecological demands are sufficient to explain what has happened. No need to introduce something impossible to prove when all that is needed is already here.
Once the first living things with the capability to reproduce and pass on heritable variation existed, radiation into what must have been numerous niches is easily understandable.
 
Top