The Flood & Worldwide Festivals of the Dead — the connection.

[Left Coast]

That is correct -- if none of the postulates can be guaranteed to be correct (and of course there are many theories out there, even conjectures about what happened re: evolution and geology), it doesn't mean they are not correct. Because nothing in science can be proven. If a theory could be proven, that would be a different story. No matter the evidence that some use to support a theory, it does not mean the theory is right or wrong.

This does not mean that all ideas are equally possible, plausible, or supported by the evidence. You understand this, yes?

 

[Left Coast]

You should really stop saying that:
I’ve just posted tons.

It’s the interpretation that varies. And if it can’t be explained, it’s ignored

No, I'm sorry, you haven't.

This is like saying that because I know someone who correctly guessed what number I was thinking, that's "evidence" that she actually read my mind.

No, sorry.

Have you talked to an actual professional geologist about any of this "tons" of proof you think you have? Have you gone to your nearest accredited university to discuss the issue with a geology professor?

What you really should stop saying is that you believe in a global flood because of all the evidence.

Your belief in a global flood didn't start with the evidence. It started with "the Bible said it, so I believe it" and you've been working backwards from from there ever since to try to find ways to rationalize it and make it fit with the evidence.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

….they will continue to actually understand their religion…

Did you not tell me that even among Jews there are diverse beliefs?
They can’t all understand their religion….otherwise, there’d be agreement.

They can’t all be right. (However, they could all be wrong.)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The author John Garnier wrote, as well as other books:

The Worship of the Dead: Or, the Origin and Nature of Pagan Idolatry and Its Bearing Upon the Early History of Egypt and Babylonia

Israel In Britain

The Great Pyramid: Its Builder and Its Prophecy; With a Review of the Corresponding Prophecies of Scripture Relating to Coming Events and the Approaching End of the Age
​

The last two are plainly hooey, but back around 1900 fashionable hooey, and I'm going to take a great deal more persuading than is available in the OP before I accept that the first book is not hooey too.

Start with demonstrating the factual accuracy of the claim that all these Festivals of the Dead occur at all, let alone occur at the same time of year.

Second, there was never a Genesis flood. Had there been, we'd find a single flood layer all over all continents and islands and the ocean floor and dated in the last 10,000 years; and we'd find a genetic bottleneck in every species of land animal and all the bottlenecks would date to that same date; and we'd find a billion cubic miles of water over and above the water the presently on the earth. For the Flood to be true, all those things must exist, but of course none of them does.

Re: the Flood layer, no. Earth’s topography was altered in many areas. (Like the many fossils of giant clams on Mt. Everest found
closed, depicting a catastrophic death.) (Psalms 104:8-9) Portions of land we have now, prior to the Flood, were existing as sea floor. No layer would accumulate there, they would be indecipherable from the sediment beneath.. And the extensive glaciers formed by the Flood, would remove a lot of sediment laid down.

Re: genetic bottlenecks, the microsafelite-based processes utilized in determining them are unreliable….
“However, a review of the published literature indicates that, as typically applied, microsatellite-based bottleneck tests often do not detect bottlenecks in vertebrate populations known to have experienced declines. This observation was supported by simulations that revealed that bottleneck tests can have limited statistical power to detect bottlenecks largely as a result of limited sample sizes typically used in published studies.”

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-294X.2012.05635.x

Re: amount of water….I’ve covered this aspect many, many times. (See above: Psalms 104:8-9) I’m not going to keep repeating myself, sorry.

And how do you know those other books by John Garnier, aren’t based on some truths? Because it doesn’t “sound right” or “sound natural”?
The many RF members on here who have conversations with their invisible spirit guides, or even their invisible gods…..does that “sound right,” or “sound natural “? But yet they seriously claim such incidents.
Do you think these posters are all delusional? It only takes one, to prove my point.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

This is like saying that because I know someone who correctly guessed what number I was thinking, that's "evidence" that she actually read my mind.

You’re right, no one time would prove anything.

But that’s a false analogy…isn’t it? Did I just post evidence of one festival, or *many*??

The “17th day of the 2nd month”…coupled with all the evidences posted, the cumulative weight of them is profound!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Re: the Flood layer, no. Earth’s topography was altered in many areas. (Like the many fossils of giant clams on Mt. Everest found
closed, depicting a catastrophic death.) (Psalms 104:8-9) Portions of land we have now, prior to the Flood, were existing as sea floor. No layer would accumulate there, they would be indecipherable from the sediment beneath.. And the extensive glaciers formed by the Flood, would remove a lot of sediment laid down.

Re: genetic bottlenecks, the microsafelite-based processes utilized in determining them are unreliable….
“However, a review of the published literature indicates that, as typically applied, microsatellite-based bottleneck tests often do not detect bottlenecks in vertebrate populations known to have experienced declines. This observation was supported by simulations that revealed that bottleneck tests can have limited statistical power to detect bottlenecks largely as a result of limited sample sizes typically used in published studies.”

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-294X.2012.05635.x

Re: amount of water….I’ve covered this aspect many, many times. (See above: Psalms 104:8-9) I’m not going to keep repeating myself, sorry.

And how do you know those other books by John Garnier, aren’t based on some truths? Because it doesn’t “sound right” or “sound natural”?
The many RF members on here who have conversations with their invisible spirit guides, or even their invisible gods…..does that “sound right,” or “sound natural “? But yet they seriously claim such incidents.
Do you think these posters are all delusional? It only takes one, to prove my point.

What "giant clams" on Mt. Everest? And please note, the fossil on Mt. Everest and everywhere else refute the flood model.

You do not get to ignore what your own model predicts when you test it.

Lastly you yourself have admitted that your "model" is unscientific rubbish. Here is one more chance to show that I am wrong. What is your model? Be specific. And even more important, what reasonable test could possibly refute it based upon your model's own claims? If you can't answer this question you do not have any evidence by definition.

And as to your single paper, it appear to be very questionable. It appears to be the work of one man well outside his area of expertise, it is published in an open access journal, and the cowriters all appear to be his students. This is not a quality source. How was it received? Did anyone even pay it any attention when it appears to come from people that do not know that they are talking about.

You need more than a glamour press article to refute well accepted science.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You’re right, no one time would prove anything.

But that’s a false analogy…isn’t it? Did I just post evidence of one festival, or *many*??

The “17th day of the 2nd month”…coupled with all the evidences posted, the cumulative weight of them is profound!

But once again, very few appear to have been on that day. Most were around that day. You cannot claim that you did something when your own source says that you did not.

 

[Left Coast]

You’re right, no one time would prove anything.

Nor would many times prove it either. It would demonstrate that she's able to accurately predict numbers I come up with, yes. But that doesn't mean that the most plausible explanation for that demonstration is that she's actually psychic and reading my thoughts.

But that’s a false analogy…isn’t it? Did I just post evidence of one festival, or *many*??

The “17th day of the 2nd month”…coupled with all the evidences posted, the cumulative weight of them is profound!

Two.

You cited two examples of festivals of the dead that allegedly specifically happen on the 17th day of the 2nd month. And one of them, the Egyptian one, celebrates the death of one particular God, not mass death of humans.

Your other handful of examples refer to other holidays commemorating the dead that happen in November.

And I honestly don't even believe all of them, because I already found errors that I already mentioned - which is why I wanted to see citations of where this historian from 100 years ago got this information. He mentions the Hindus, but as I already posted earlier, that appear to also be inaccurate...their festival for the dead occurs on a totally different timeline. Unless there is more than one that I don't know about. Any Hindus on the forum are welcome to educate me.

So again, no, the cumulative weight of this is not "profound" in favor of a global flood. It appears to be largely circumstantial, or a function of season of the year.

 

[blü 2]

Re: the Flood layer, no. Earth’s topography was altered in many areas.

That's a geological question, and I fear geology gives answers unfriendly to your hypothesis.

(Like the many fossils of giant clams on Mt. Everest found closed, depicting a catastrophic death.) (Psalms 104:8-9) Portions of land we have now, prior to the Flood, were existing as sea floor.

The fossils in the upper Himalayas were on the seafloor some 420 million ya. Their elevation is due to the seafloor being raised and raised again as the Indian and Eurasian plates have remained in collision, upthrusting the mountains.

genetic bottlenecks, the microsafelite-based processes utilized in determining them are unreliable….
“However, a review of the published literature indicates that, as typically applied, microsatellite-based bottleneck tests often do not detect bottlenecks in vertebrate populations known to have experienced declines. This observation was supported by simulations that revealed that bottleneck tests can have limited statistical power to detect bottlenecks largely as a result of limited sample sizes typically used in published studies.”

No, that won't do. There MUST be a genetic bottleneck in every species of land animal, and they must all date to the same fairly recent date ─ and they're simply not there/

Re: amount of water….I’ve covered this aspect many, many times. (See above: Psalms 104:8-9) I’m not going to keep repeating myself, sorry.

The bible states that in the Flood the top of Mt Everest was about 25 feet under water.

To do that you'll need some 1.113 bn cubic miles of water over and above the water presently on the earth. And as we can see from our windows, it isn't there.

And how do you know those other books by John Garnier, aren’t based on some truths? Because it doesn’t “sound right” or “sound natural”?

Garnier is not a scientist, is not an anthropologist, is not supported in anything he says by the researches of more than a century since he wrote.

I have never heard of the 'festivals of the dead' that he mentions, let alone the notion that they're all held at the one time of year ─ not in my reading, not when I lived in the Pacific Islands (central and south) for a decade in the previous century. If you have such evidence from reputable modern research, I'll happily read it. Until then, forgive me old friend when I say I have no reason to think it exists.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

That's a geological question, and I fear geology gives answers unfriendly to your hypothesis.
The fossils in the upper Himalayas were on the seafloor some 420 million ya. Their elevation is due to the seafloor being raised and raised again as the Indian and Eurasian plates have remained in collision, upthrusting the mountains.
No, that won't do. There MUST be a genetic bottleneck in every species of land animal, and they must all date to the same fairly recent date ─ and they're simply not there/
The bible states that in the Flood the top of Mt Everest was about 25 feet under water.

To do that you'll need some 1.113 bn cubic miles of water over and above the water presently on the earth. And as we can see from our windows, it isn't there.
Garnier is not a scientist, is not an anthropologist, is not supported in anything he says by the researches of more than a century since he wrote.

I have never heard of the 'festivals of the dead' that he mentions, let alone the notion that they're all held at the one time of year ─ not in my reading, not when I lived in the Pacific Islands (central and south) for a decade in the previous century. If you have such evidence from reputable modern research, I'll happily read it. Until then, forgive me old friend when I say I have no reason to think it exists.

I wonder how they knew they were over Mt Everest? Was there sophisticated sonar and satnav on board the ark? Just a curiosity and valid even for those that claim it would be some other mountain, since Everest has only been there since last Thursday.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What "giant clams" on Mt. Everest? And please note, the fossil on Mt. Everest and everywhere else refute the flood model.

You do not get to ignore what your own model predicts when you test it.

Lastly you yourself have admitted that your "model" is unscientific rubbish. Here is one more chance to show that I am wrong. What is your model? Be specific. And even more important, what reasonable test could possibly refute it based upon your model's own claims? If you can't answer this question you do not have any evidence by definition.

And as to your single paper, it appear to be very questionable. It appears to be the work of one man well outside his area of expertise, it is published in an open access journal, and the cowriters all appear to be his students. This is not a quality source. How was it received? Did anyone even pay it any attention when it appears to come from people that do not know that they are talking about.

You need more than a glamour press article to refute well accepted science.

And I have to correct my post somewhat. When it comes to the bottleneck study the paper did not claim that they were unreliable in the sense that @Hockeycowboy meant. That paper is about how there can be false positives. It in no way implies that there would be false negatives. Stable populations if improperly surveyed can return a false positive of there being a bottleneck.. I don't think it is possible to have a false negative.

In other words the paper made it even worse for his cause.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Two.

I know there were way more than two.
But you’re free to ignore them.. free Will and all.

The fossils in the upper Himalayas were on the seafloor some 420 million ya. Their elevation is due to the seafloor being raised and raised again as the Indian and Eurasian plates have remained in collision, upthrusting the mountains.

Do you realize the extent of erosion we would see, if that were true?! From the extreme weathering they endure, they’d be rounded stumps after 10 m.y. The rocks are old, millions no doubt, I’ll grant you that. But the features we observe, are crisp and well-defined!
The Himalayas scream youthful features, as do the Rockies, Andes, and varies others (Not all, of course.) There was no need for 5-mile-high water, prior to the Flood.

That’s a straw man they want you to use, my friend.

 

[blü 2]

Do you realize the extent of erosion we would see, if that were true?! From the extreme weathering they endure, they’d be rounded stumps after 10 m.y.

Why? The plate activity has been going on for hundreds of millions of years, which is how Everest and its neighbors are the highest in the world. As long as over all they rise faster than they weather, they must keep winning.

The rocks are old, millions no doubt, I’ll grant you that. But the features we observe, are crisp and well-defined!

Grateful if you can refer me to a reputable source for these matters.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Why? The plate activity has been going on for hundreds of millions of years, which is how Everest and its neighbors are the highest in the world. As long as over all they rise faster than they weather, they must keep winning.
Grateful if you can refer me to a reputable source for these matters.

It’s what we observe. I see no rounded stumps on those ranges I mentioned, do you?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I know there were way more than two.
But you’re free to ignore them.. free Will and all.


Do you realize the extent of erosion we would see, if that were true?! From the extreme weathering they endure, they’d be rounded stumps after 10 m.y. The rocks are old, millions no doubt, I’ll grant you that. But the features we observe, are crisp and well-defined!
The Himalayas scream youthful features, as do the Rockies, Andes, and varies others (Not all, of course.) There was no need for 5-mile-high water, prior to the Flood.

That’s a straw man they want you to use, my friend.

Prove it. You won't because you know that you can't. If you try I am already pretty sure of tbe error that you will use.

 

[Left Coast]

I know there were way more than two.
But you’re free to ignore them.. free Will and all.

Go back and actually read what you copied and pasted. Do you actually have the book you quoted from? Or did you just pull it from an apologetics website somewhere?

Go look up the actual passages...does he cite where he got the information about these various cultures? Does he provide any references? How many cultures does he say that have some holiday on precisely that day, and not just around that month? And were the holidays of mass death, or one specific death as in the Egyptian example?

This is the kind of basic fact checking and critical thinking that I'm betting you'd apply to any other work of religious apologetics that doesn't conform to your preconceived beliefs. So why not apply those skills now?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Go back and actually read what you copied and pasted. Do you actually have the book you quoted from? Or did you just pull it from an apologetics website somewhere?

Go look up the actual passages...does he cite where he got the information about these various cultures? Does he provide any references? How many cultures does he say that have some holiday on precisely that day, and not just around that month? And were the holidays of mass death, or one specific death as in the Egyptian example?

This is the kind of basic fact checking and critical thinking that I'm betting you'd apply to any other work of religious apologetics that doesn't conform to your preconceived beliefs. So why not apply those skills now?

Creationists will use any source that seems to give them hope and then pretend that it is strong evidence. Even if his author was somewhat legit this is still better explained by natural processes rather than relying on magic. Another thing they will do is to misinterpret obscure articles. He posted one yesterday. At first I thought that it may not have been the best of sources. And it still may not be. But then I read more of the article and understood it does not help him. It hurts him.

The lack a universal population bottleneck is evidence that refutes the flood since it predicts one. He thought that the article called all studies into genetic bottlenecks into question. It did not. It only explained how there can be false positives in a stable population. It said nothing about there being false negatives. A false negative would be very hard to explain since a false negative would be shown with a population that somehow went through a genetic bottleneck displaying all sorts of genetic variation. I don't know of any cases of that or how it could even be possible. And of course if one followed the work of the writer you would see that in a later paper he would do what many scientists do when they recognize a limitation in a tool. He proposed ways to correct for it. In other words, population bottlenecks are still a huge problem for believers of the Flood myth.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I know there were way more than two.
But you’re free to ignore them.. free Will and all.


Do you realize the extent of erosion we would see, if that were true?! From the extreme weathering they endure, they’d be rounded stumps after 10 m.y. The rocks are old, millions no doubt, I’ll grant you that. But the features we observe, are crisp and well-defined!
The Himalayas scream youthful features, as do the Rockies, Andes, and varies others (Not all, of course.) There was no need for 5-mile-high water, prior to the Flood.

That’s a straw man they want you to use, my friend.

What are "youthful features" in regards to mountains? What is youth to a mountain? Is it only a matter of looking at a profile to determine the age of a mountain?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

What are "youthful features" in regards to mountains? What is youth to a mountain? Is it only a matter of looking at a profile to determine the age of a mountain?

I think I clearly stated it.
Amount of erosion....or lack of.
Also the range’s make up
Everest has much soft rock, like marble & limestone: 3.5 - 4 on Moh’s scale. Weathering would show faster results on Everest, than say a range with more granite.
And yet, we see little erosion, not millions of years..

This thread is about a different set of evidence. Not gonna get sidetracked anymore.

Good night.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Hindus have two such periods (Shrāddha Pakshas - fortnights of remembrance of ancestors), one in April, the other in October (which conluded a few days ago). Perhaps we had two floods.