The Flood & Worldwide Festivals of the Dead — the connection.

[Rival]

It really is not consequential that there was no record in their history.

The idea of shared flood myths and festivals is the crux of the OP's argument tho.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yes, it is. And the fact that it was written and preserved and passed on to generation after generation shows just that.

Nope -- not a bit.

Homer's Iliad and Odessey were written, preserved and passed on to generation after generation. Same with Tolkien's LOTR, Silmarillion, and all the rest. Oh, did I forget The Aeneid, or the Bhagavad Gita? How many others did I leave out.

The truth is that the Jews -- "Israel" -- arose from out of the Canaanites, and wrote themselves a (mostly) fabulous "history" to explain why they were different (and better).

Do a little research. Learning is a good thing, and rarely painful.

 

[Left Coast]

Not personally, Shunyadragon here says he is a geologist if I remember correctly.

Interesting, @shunyadragon are you? Do you believe there was a global flood as described in Genesis?

This is the internet, of course. And who makes sure to let people like me know how he feels about my ideas, calling me uneducated. So maybe in order to understand, do you think I need to go to a university to become a geologist to prove (oops, not prove...but conjecture or conclude based on evidence apparent as thought) that there was no earthwide flood?

No, I think consulting a university geologist on the topic would probably be informative for you though.

I'm curious to see your answer, but moreso your reasoning that there was no earthwide flood. Ever.
Now can you explain in your own words with evidence that there was not an earth-wide flood? Thanks. Remember -- your own words as you understand it with backup evidence of your belief that there was no earthwide flood.

If you recall, I stated there was no evidence of a worldwide flood. Which to my knowledge, per the expertise of people who know far more than I do about Earth's geology, there isn't. It's not my job to prove a negative. This is much like the God debate. If you think something happened, it's your job to demonstrate it happened - not my job to prove it didn't.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It really is not consequential that there was no record in their history. As I was doing some research about this however, I came across this telling comment:
" The new data should evoke new thinking, which, in this case, would result in the restoration of the belief that the Earth suffered a devastating flood. That geologists have failed to review their fundamental belief in the presence of this new data is powerful testament to the constraining effect that “no flood, ever” holds over science, related disciplines, and rational thought."
The article is interesting, I hope you will read it. Not hard to digest.
Debunking Geology’s ‘No Flood, Ever’ Theory: Historical Analysis & Bathymetry Evidence on New Maps – The Worldwide Flood
So unfortunately geologists still go with the idea that there was "no flood, ever."

Because there is no scientific evidence for a worldwide flood. And there really should be. Your source was a religious one and not a scientific one. At best they do not understand the concept of evidence. If they do then they were lying.

You can claim that geologists are ignoring that mountains were made by giant dung beetles too. There is just as much scientific evidence of giant dung beetles making the mountains as there is scientific evidence for Noah and his magic boat.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

It really is not consequential that there was no record in their history. As I was doing some research about this however, I came across this telling comment:
" The new data should evoke new thinking, which, in this case, would result in the restoration of the belief that the Earth suffered a devastating flood. That geologists have failed to review their fundamental belief in the presence of this new data is powerful testament to the constraining effect that “no flood, ever” holds over science, related disciplines, and rational thought."
The article is interesting, I hope you will read it. Not hard to digest.
Debunking Geology’s ‘No Flood, Ever’ Theory: Historical Analysis & Bathymetry Evidence on New Maps – The Worldwide Flood
So unfortunately geologists still go with the idea that there was "no flood, ever."

There is no evidence that supports a global flood and volumes of evidence that debunk the idea.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No. We do not have evidence that supports the conclusion that there was a global flood. Claiming that death celebrations by disparate cultures is evidence of the flood has the same validity as claiming they are evidence for _____ (fill in the blank).

It’s not that disparate cultures have a festival of the dead..... that’s not it.
These celebrations of the dead are held worldwide on the same day of different calendars — the 17th day of the 2nd month — the Bible says the Flood occurred!!

 

[stvdv]

I don't think a massive worldwide flood that every other culture recorded would be easily forgotten. It'd be like asking folks to forget the 11th September 2001. The plain truth is, they have no such myth.

We have conspiracy theories now, so probably also back then (still people with imagination and creative minds)

Sometimes now, so probably also back then, the same event is called conspiracy by some and fact by others

Easily truth is represented as myth and v.v.

Hence, to get to the truth you need to find a better way then just rely on books.

All wisdom lies within, and by meditation alone a human has the ability to know the Truth. Rely on others, Scriptures, history books is good for a start, to get inspiration, but not to get to the Truth

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The idea of shared flood myths and festivals is the crux of the OP's argument tho.

....”on the 17th day of the second month”? Genesis 7:11

That’s the crux.

 

[Rival]

....”on the 17th day of the second month”? Genesis 7:11

That’s the crux.

Didn't you see my post about the relevant festival? It doesn't even give this date and your source is wrong about the festival.

 

[Rival]

Ohhhh, I think I get it now. I didn't read this whole bit before; I must have skimmed.

If I recall rightly, in the famous myth of the Contendings of Horu and Set, Set killed Wesir (Osiris) by tricking Him into a coffin which He then sealed and put afloat in the Nile. It took a year for His wife, Iset (Isis) to find Him.

Edit: Yes, here, [WIki],

Plutarch recounts one version of the Osiris myth in which Set (Osiris' brother), along with the Queen of Ethiopia, conspired with 72 accomplices to plot the assassination of Osiris.[27] Set fooled Osiris into getting into a box, which Set then shut, sealed with lead, and threw into the Nile. Osiris' wife, Isis, searched for his remains until she finally found him embedded in a tamarisk tree trunk, which was holding up the roof of a palace in Byblos on the Phoenician coast. She managed to remove the coffin and retrieve her husband's body.

This conflation with Noach betrays a lack of understanding of Kemetic mythology.

@Hockeycowboy

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I feel as though @Hockeycowboy is being piled on, here. Surely there must be others who can concur with his position? @nPeace @Deeje

I appreciate that, Rival.

I’m used to it, though.

(Is @Deeje back on RF?)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Didn't you see my post about the relevant festival? It doesn't even give this date and your source is wrong about the festival.

Ancient Egypt did not have the same calendar as it does today. (I mean, there was no “August” or “July” in ancient Egypt.)

That’s why a lot of this evidence is not easily deciphered

 

[Subduction Zone]

It’s not that disparate cultures have a festival of the dead..... that’s not it.
These celebrations of the dead are held worldwide on the same day of different calendars — the 17th day of the 2nd month — the Bible says the Flood occurred!!

One weak, and I mean very weak, coincidence. Not only that the Jewish calendar has the months date from an ecclesiastical basis and a civil basis. They appear to mainly use the former and for that calendar you are a half a year off. Worse yet it is very weak as far as coincidences go. Do you know what else happens at that time of year? Autumn is in full swing in the Northern Hemisphere. We are changing from things growing to dying. Do you think that might be a more reasonable explanation for those dates rather than a mythical flood?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If he edited the tags in afterwards you won't have been notified. It's not a very good system.

Yes, that must be it: I added the tags in an edit! Thanks for that info, Rival.


Here, let me do this now, then..
@ChristineM , @Bree , @Vee , @Deeje (If she can get it.)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

One weak, and I mean very weak, coincidence. Not only that the Jewish calendar has the months date from an ecclesiastical basis and a civil basis. They appear to mainly use the former and for that calendar you are a half a year off. Worse yet it is very weak as far as coincidences go. Do you know what else happens at that time of year? Autumn is in full swing in the Northern Hemisphere. We are changing from things growing to dying. Do you think that might be a more reasonable explanation for those dates rather than a mythical flood?

Lol!!
In fact, ROFL!!

It is strong evidence! For many things, not the least of which is the Bible’s accuracy about this event!

Imagine, ancient and current cultures far removed from even any knowledge of the Bible, yet on the very same day the Bible says the Flood occurred & killed the majority, they hold celebrations for the dead!! “The 17th day of the second month”.


What’s your next move? Yelling “conspiracy“?

Actually, I saw some merit in your statement,
“We are changing from things growing to dying. Do you think that might be a more reasonable explanation for those dates rather than a mythical flood?”

But then that explanation would be more viable if the date of these feasts fell in mid-winter, with the Sun’s shortest day, usually Dec. 24.
But it doesn’t. So that understanding “holds no water” — pardon the pun.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Lol!!
In fact, ROFL!!

It is strong evidence! For many things, not the least of which is the Bible’s accuracy about this event!

Imagine, ancient and current cultures far removed from even any knowledge of the Bible, yet on the very same day the Bible says the Flood occurred & killed the majority, they hold celebrations for the dead!! “The 17th day of the second month”.


What’s your next move? Yelling “conspiracy“?

Actually, I saw some merit in your statement,
“We are changing from things growing to dying. Do you think that might be a more reasonable explanation for those dates rather than a mythical flood?”

But then that would be more viable if the date of these feasts fell in mid-winter, with the Sun’s shortest day, usually Dec. 24.
But it doesn’t. So that understanding “holds no water” — pardon the pun.

No, since there is a natural explanation for the events that we do see then it is very weak evidence. A natural explanation beats an explanation when the claim is essentially "magic!"

And please note, it is not on the same day each month. I cannot be. There are different calendars involved. You found a few that seemed to match that date and ignored all of those that did not. That also makes it very weak evidence.

And of course the actual scientific evidence is infinitely stronger and knocks the claim out of the park. As you yourself have demonstrated many times there is no scientific evidence for the Flood of Noah.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You're citing a historian from a hundred years ago who provides no citations for his claims.

Huh?!
There are quite a few citations! Your bias is blinding you.

Historical facts are historical facts, whether reported by Niall Ferguson or Josephus. (“100 years” makes no difference,)

Regarding autumn : these festivals honor dead humans, not death of nature. “On the 17th day of the second month” of their respective calendars.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Huh?!
There are quite a few citations! Your bias is blinding you.

Historical facts are historical facts, whether reported by Niall Ferguson or Josephus.

Regarding autumn : these festivals honor dead humans, not death of nature. “On the 17th day of the second month” of their respective calendars.

He changed the date and then used a special pleading argument. for Catholic and other examples. Once again, autumn explains it much better and does not require magic.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No, since there is a natural explanation for the events that we do see then it is very weak evidence. A natural explanation beats an explanation when the claim is essentially "magic!"

And please note, it is not on the same day each month. I cannot be. There are different calendars involved. You found a few that seemed to match that date and ignored all of those that did not. That also makes it very weak evidence.

And of course the actual scientific evidence is infinitely stronger and knocks the claim out of the park. As you yourself have demonstrated many times there is no scientific evidence for the Flood of Noah.

How sad it is...confronted with factual evidence revealing a commonality — on the very same date, in all parts of the world — but still, your bias won’t let you at least reason on it.
Your statement, “And please note, it is not on the same day each month. I cannot be. There are different calendars involved. ”
But it is, on their respective calendars as these anthropologists and historians stated...ancient calendars no longer are followed, for obvious reasons. Ancient Rome’s celebration was on May 11th, the 17th day of their second month at the time.
(Which actually further debunks your ‘things die in autumn’ argument.)

Combined with all the other evidences I’ve posted, the cumulative weight can not be reasonably dismissed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How sad it is...confronted with factual evidence revealing a commonality — on the very same date, in all parts of the world — but still, your bias won’t let you at least reason on it.
Your statement, “And please note, it is not on the same day each month. I cannot be. There are different calendars involved. ”
But it is, on their respective calendars as these anthropologists and historians stated...ancient calendars no longer are followed, for obvious reasons. Ancient Rome’s celebration was on May 11th, the 17th day of their second month at the time.
(Which actually further debunks your ‘things die in autumn’ argument.)

Combined with all the other evidences I’ve posted, the cumulative weight can not be reasonably dismissed.

No. They are not all on the same date. That is the claim. It does not appear to be supported. There are some, repeat, some celebrations around that date. You can never claim the same date for Mayans or other such groups because the two different calendar will not give the same date in each year.

Now if every year the date was adjusted to the Jewish calendar you might have something. But a fall festival in autumn is no different from a vernal festival in spring. You are merely amazed because there is not one stitch of reliable evidence for your flood.