YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Who are you using for references to your assertion other than your opinion? Proof? Evidence? Science?
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The Flood & Worldwide Festivals of the Dead — the connection.
- Thread starter Hockeycowboy
- Start date
I would not consider that “straightforward”, at the expense of all the other festivals occurring on the same date of their respective calendars!
But where is the flood, here? Kemet is wellknown for its attention to death, so this is not really meaningful in this context.
Firstly, your post doesn't demonstrate that all these various cultures celebrated on precisely the same day. You're citing a historian from a hundred years ago who provides no citations for his claims. And even the claims he does make don't say that all these cultures celebrated such things on precisely the same day. Of course we know that Catholicism has had global reach, so it shouldn't exactly be shocking that cultures influenced by Catholicism would share such a holiday.
Secondly, it shouldn't surprise us that around Autumn, many cultures worldwide would celebrate death...that is the time of year when things in nature begin dying as the weather cools.
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Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
You don't think people would have considered a massive flood killing all life on the planet worth recording?
Fair enough. That makes any conjecture about the global origins of Deluge myths even more dubious.
And I guess you haven't submitted any of that to any academic geological journals as evidence of a global flood...have you?
The opinions of geologists generally. They are experts on such things. Again, do you know many of them? Have you consulted any mainstream academic or scientific sources of information on the question?
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
The Day of the Dead being held on 1st and 2nd November (All Saints and All Souls respectively) is certainly not a coincidence, and very likely has its origins in Catholic traditions imported from Europe, even if the festival itself may (or may not) have pagan origins.
@Hockeycowboy
I assume your source is referring to this:
Wadi Festival/The Beautiful Feast of the Valley: Similar in many ways to the Qingming Festival in China and the Day of the Dead in Mexico and elsewhere, the Beautiful Feast of the Valley honored the souls of the deceased and allowed for the living and dead to celebrate together while, at the same time, honoring Amun. The statues of Amun, Mut, and Khonsu (the Theban Triad) were taken from their temples to visit the mortuary temples and necropolis across the river. People visited with their departed loved ones at their tombs and brought bouquets of flowers and food and drink offerings. Egyptologist Lynn Meskell describes the focus of the celebration:
The Beautiful Festival of the Wadi was a key example of a festival of the dead, which took place between the harvest and the Nile flood. In it, the divine boat of Amun traveled from the Karnak temple to the necropolis of Western Thebes. A large procession followed and the living and dead were thought to commune near the graves which became houses of the joy of the heart on that occasion. (cited in Nardo, 99-100)
Images of the deceased were carried in the procession so their souls might join in the festivities and were left in the tombs when the festival was completed. As Meskell notes, "in this way a link was forged between celebrating the gods and the dead in a single all-encompassing event" which brought the past into the present and, through the eternal gods, on into the future. The Beautiful Feast of the Valley was among the most popular in Egypt's history and was celebrated from at least the Middle Kingdom on.
This is the major point here: The Beautiful Festival of the Wadi was a key example of a festival of the dead, which took place between the harvest and the Nile flood. It's a major point because Kemet appreciated the fertility cycles, sun cycles etc. A major cycle was the annual Nile flood that brought fertility to the land - and between the harvest and the flood, the land would have been considered infertile -- dead. This would be an appropriate time to honour the dead in other ways.
I assume your source is referring to this:
Wadi Festival/The Beautiful Feast of the Valley: Similar in many ways to the Qingming Festival in China and the Day of the Dead in Mexico and elsewhere, the Beautiful Feast of the Valley honored the souls of the deceased and allowed for the living and dead to celebrate together while, at the same time, honoring Amun. The statues of Amun, Mut, and Khonsu (the Theban Triad) were taken from their temples to visit the mortuary temples and necropolis across the river. People visited with their departed loved ones at their tombs and brought bouquets of flowers and food and drink offerings. Egyptologist Lynn Meskell describes the focus of the celebration:
The Beautiful Festival of the Wadi was a key example of a festival of the dead, which took place between the harvest and the Nile flood. In it, the divine boat of Amun traveled from the Karnak temple to the necropolis of Western Thebes. A large procession followed and the living and dead were thought to commune near the graves which became houses of the joy of the heart on that occasion. (cited in Nardo, 99-100)
Images of the deceased were carried in the procession so their souls might join in the festivities and were left in the tombs when the festival was completed. As Meskell notes, "in this way a link was forged between celebrating the gods and the dead in a single all-encompassing event" which brought the past into the present and, through the eternal gods, on into the future. The Beautiful Feast of the Valley was among the most popular in Egypt's history and was celebrated from at least the Middle Kingdom on.
This is the major point here: The Beautiful Festival of the Wadi was a key example of a festival of the dead, which took place between the harvest and the Nile flood. It's a major point because Kemet appreciated the fertility cycles, sun cycles etc. A major cycle was the annual Nile flood that brought fertility to the land - and between the harvest and the flood, the land would have been considered infertile -- dead. This would be an appropriate time to honour the dead in other ways.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
ok that's your response. I find the Bible to be far more trustworthy and accurate in its record of history than àny other book I know about. Including its culture over thousands of years.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Aha! You said flood!
Sorry. Everyone should know that the flooding of the Nile annually is seen as a needed event. They knew that at the time of the Egyptian empire and it as you pointed out was a positive event in their mythology. It is not like the mythical flood of Noah at all.
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
We very definitely know of at least one "great flood" (well, technically, a series of tsunamis), it was even located in the Mediterranean!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption
It didn't cover any continents, but it did probably cause the collapse of at least one major civilization in the area.
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@Hockeycowboy You do put yourself up to these things and I appreciate it 
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
The Bible is not a historical record and was never meant to be.
Deep Dark, Deep Space, Deep Forest. All just as applicable variations of "in the deep".
Or as @Rival stated. A reference to the Underworld.
There is no proof of a worldwide flood. It was more then likely a contained flood to the fertile crescent area, that was spread around.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
At least you know there were reports of huge flooding.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Who says with evidence that there was no worldwide flood? You? By the way, what evidence supporting your conclusion do you have?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
And we know the extent and how violent those floods were. None of them qualify as the mythical flood of Noah.
And since we are dealing with mythology here. This video explains why mythology refutes and does not support the Noah's Ark myth:
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10545-medina
I never denied this. I positively asserted I believe there was a huge flood. My point is that neither Kemet nor, as far as I know, any other African beliefs share the mass flood myth - and Kemet is one of the longest running civilisations that goes back into prehistory and we haven't any notion of a mass flood in their myths, so I was just pointing out that this is a crack in the theory as given.