The Flood & Worldwide Festivals of the Dead — the connection.

[YoursTrue]

Sure, I think God has the power to make a bird with wings of solid gold and a body of lead to fly, but I have never seen a bird with wings of solid gold and a body of lead flying, so perhaps God prefers a logically ordered universe that operates according to sound rules to inconsistent magical nonsense.

In my opinion.

What magical nonsense you talking about? Halloween?

 

[Subduction Zone]

So your answer to his question is an ad-hominem?

In my opinion

It looks like he was caught bluffing again.

 

[YoursTrue]

Aha, so God magic took care of it. The ultimate answer to all objections

Yet birds fly without any outside influence at the beginning you think? Or they fly because they evolved that way from a little bitty combination of chance elements meeting and growing, is that how you figure it?

 

[ChristineM]

21 valid geological reasons a worldwide flood has never happened, any one discounts the claim of worldwide flooding

http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Nr38Reasons.pdf

 

[Rival]

Ok, so is there a compilation of writings giving history of that people and their relationship with whatever god(s) they worshiped? I mean, surely you would or should know that I would think. Since this did enter the picture in relation to the initial question, didn't it, i should probably have said which you worship too now? I can imagine you were on quite a journey...

No, because the Kemetians worshipped their Gods from prehistory, preliterate times. Their religion was so much a part of their culture it was indistinguishable; they just accepted this is how it had always been, this is what their ancestors did and didn't question it. This went on for 3,000+ years.

It's not like Abrahamic religion where writing matters much, if at all; relationships with a God or Gods were individual. Furthermore, each nome (province) had a different theology. It would be best to think of Ancient Egyptian religion like Dharmic Faiths today - not one single faith, but many different theologies utilising the same basic premise and often same characters. The idea that they needed to write down a comprehensive explanation of traditions everyone already knew seemed like a waste of ink - plus only 1% were literate, so who would even read it? There are many hundreds of Gods in Kemet, so it would be a nightmare writing about your relationship to each.

We know about Kemetic history through various royal chronicles, stela, monuments, battle records, funerary texts, letters, poems etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_literature

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yet birds fly without any outside influence at the beginning you think? Or they fly because they evolved that way from a little bitty combination of chance elements meeting and growing, is that how you figure it?

And you are forgetting natural selection.

Why can't creationists ever remember both? They can only focus on one at a time.

 

[Rival]

I can imagine you were on quite a journey...

Not one I wanted to be on.

 

[nPeace]

List of a select number of flood legends from around the world (there are actually dozens more). Notice the origin of the flood legend and the story it is found in.

Flood Legends

Samples from six continents and the islands of the sea; hundreds of such legends are known

Australia - Kurnai

Destruction by Water

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Babylon - Berossus’ account

Destruction by Water

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Babylon - Gilgamesh epic

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Bolivia - Chiriguano

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Borneo - Sea Dayak

Destruction by Water

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Burma - Singpho

Destruction by Water

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Canada - Cree

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Canada - Montagnais

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


China - Lolo

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Cuba - original natives

Destruction by Water

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


East Africa - Masai

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Egypt - Book of the Dead

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Fiji - Walavu-levu tradition

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Humans Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


French Polynesia - Raïatéa

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Animals Spared


Greece - Lucian’s account

Destruction by Water

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Guyana - Macushi

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Iceland - Eddas

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Humans Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


India - Andaman Islands

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Humans Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


India - Bhil

Destruction by Water

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


India - Kamar

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Iran - Zend-Avesta

Destruction by Water

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Animals Spared


Italy - Ovid’s poetry

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Humans Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Malay Peninsula - Jakun

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Humans Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Mexico - Codex Chimalpopoca

Destruction by Water

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Mexico - Huichol

Destruction by Water

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


New Zealand - Maori

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Humans Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Peru - Indians of Huarochirí

Destruction by Water

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Animals Spared


Russia - Vogul

Destruction by Water

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


U.S.A. (Alaska) - Tlingit

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


U.S.A. (Arizona) - Papago

Destruction by Water

Warning Given

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


U.S.A. (Hawaii) - legend of Nu-u

Destruction by Water

Divine Cause

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


U.S.A. (North Dakota) - Mandan

Destruction by Water

Preserved in a Vessel

Vanuatu - Melanesians

Destruction by Water

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Vietnam - Bahnar

Destruction by Water

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel


Wales - Dwyfan/Dwyfach legend

Destruction by Water

Humans Spared

Animals Spared

Preserved in a Vessel

In India there is a Flood legend in which Manu is the human survivor. He befriends a small fish that grows to a large size and warns him of a devastating flood. Manu builds a boat, which the fish pulls until it is grounded on a mountain in the Himalayas.

According to the Chinese flood legend, the thunder god gives a tooth to two children, Nuwa and Fuxi. He instructs them to plant it and to take shelter in the gourd that would grow from it. A tree promptly grows from the tooth and produces a huge gourd. When the thunder god causes torrential rainfall, the children climb into the gourd. Though the resulting flood drowns all the rest of earth’s inhabitants, Nuwa and Fuxi survive and repopulate the globe.

In North America, the Arikara, a Caddo people, say that the earth was once inhabited by a race of people so strong that they ridiculed the gods. The god Nesaru destroyed these giants by means of a flood but preserved his people, the animals, and maize in a cave. The Havasupai people say that the god Hokomata caused a deluge that destroyed mankind. However, the man Tochopa preserved his daughter Pukeheh by sealing her in a hollow log.

The Maya of Central America believed that a great rain serpent destroyed the world by torrents of water. In Mexico the Chimalpopoca version tells that a flood submerged the mountains. The god Tezcatlipoca warned the man Nata, who hollowed out a log where he and his wife, Nena, found refuge until the water subsided.

In Peru the Chincha have a legend of a five-day flood that destroyed all men except one whom a talking llama led to safety on a mountain. The Aymara of Peru and Bolivia say that the god Viracocha came out of Lake Titicaca and created the world and abnormally large, strong men. Because this first race angered him, Viracocha destroyed them with a flood.

The Tupinamba Indians of Brazil spoke of a time when a great flood drowned all their ancestors except those who survived in canoes or in the tops of tall trees.

In Samoa there is a legend of a flood in early times that destroyed everyone except Pili and his wife. They found safety on a rock, and after the flood they repopulated the earth. In the Hawaiian Islands, the god Kane became annoyed with humans and sent a flood to destroy them. Only Nuʹu escaped in a large boat that finally grounded on a mountain.

On Mindanao in the Philippines, the Ata say that the earth was once covered by water that destroyed everyone except two men and a woman

The Soyot of Siberia, Russia, say that a giant frog, which was supporting the earth, moved and caused the globe to be flooded. An old man and his family survived on a raft he had made. When the water receded, the raft grounded on a high mountain.

In the book Target Earth Alan key writes: “Why then should practically all races of men have this legend of a great deluge? Why should people who lived far from the ocean in dry highland country such as central Mexico or central Asia have a legend of a flood? . . . It is difficult to explain why the universal deluge was chosen as the method of exterminating man unless it had been an actual experience. If universal deluge had not been an actuality, then some races would have had their wicked ancestors being eliminated by awesome volcanic eruptions, great blizzards, drought, wild animals, giants or demons.”

Sources: Biblical Encyclopedia Insight on the Scriptures
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200000758#h=1:0-215:0
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1992041?q=Deluge&p=doc

Great to see you again bro.

 

[nPeace]

It's much more likely that the festivals coincide with the start of Fall.

Why do you think so Rival? What's so special about Fall in every corner of the earth?

 

[Rival]

Why do you think so Rival? What's so special about Fall in every corner of the earth?

It's related to death in how things start to appear to die and animals go into hibernation etc. The night comes on quicker. It's the obvious time for these kinds of festivals in the same way spring is the obvious time for fertility and rejuvenation festivals. It's not surprising different cultures associated the times with similar things.

 

[nPeace]

It's related to death in how things start to appear to die and animals go into hibernation etc. The night comes on quicker. It's the obvious time for these kinds of festivals in the same way spring is the obvious time for fertility and rejuvenation festivals. It's not surprising different cultures associated the times with similar things.

Why do you think people did not choose September, but waited a little over a month later? Why late October, early November?
Why not late November, early December?

 

[Rival]

Why do you think people did not choose September, but waited a little over a month later? Why late October, early November?
Why not late November, early December?

I dunno. Maybe because October is when it really kicks in and you can feel the changes. I'm not sure why this is such a big deal? Many were not even set in set months but were based around Moon cycles, in which case the festivals would be movable. I honestly don't know what you're trying to prove here. The notion of death festivals in Fall is obvious .

 

[YoursTrue]

Kemetic is just the term for Ancient Egyptian religion/religious practices. There are lots of writings left covering many genres.

Do you have any information about the time these writings were written, and what any of them covered in reference to names, dates, places, events, etc.

 

[YoursTrue]

I dunno. Maybe because October is when it really kicks in and you can feel the changes. I'm not sure why this is such a big deal? Many were not even set in set months but were based around Moon cycles, in which case the festivals would be movable. I honestly don't know what you're trying to prove here. The notion of death festivals in Fall is obvious .

Let's say it is, I'll go along with your reasoning there for the sake of conversation, although of course, leaves change at different seasons maybe (?) in different parts of the world...so ... anyway ...why are there so many ghouls, goblins, witches, scary things, skulls, graves, and the like. Do you think it's because people like the idea of death so covering it with lots of love and beautiful things? If we believe the account, not too many survived, but Noah and his immediate family in the ark surely must have related what happened. So you think maybe it reflects a real pretty event and they're happy about it? Or -- why celebrate it?

 

[YoursTrue]

There are Jewish prayers for the souls of the dead, tho.

Are you (were you?) Jewish? What's heka?

 

[YoursTrue]

There are Jewish prayers for the souls of the dead, tho.

The thing is, one of the Articles of Faith a Jewish man is supposed to recite every day has in it the definite hope of a resurrection. You probably know that, right?

 

[nPeace]

I dunno. Maybe because October is when it really kicks in and you can feel the changes. I'm not sure why this is such a big deal? Many were not even set in set months but were based around Moon cycles, in which case the festivals would be movable. I honestly don't know what you're trying to prove here. The notion of death festivals in Fall is obvious .

I'm sure people have their reasons for accepting one hypothesis over another, but the reason "this is such a big deal" is that those who are discussing it are interested in the topic, and hence, all the available data should be looked at. Isn't that true?
The data @Hockeycowboy and @Eyes to See presented is strong evidence. So it ought to be considered, and determine if the alternatives in any way weakens it.
I don't see how it could, based on the fact that 1) the date is significant. It not random. Fall isn't just a short duration of a month, or two, and 2) Fall does not affect lands in the same way, depending on where one is located. In fact Fall does not occur around the same time worldwide.

South Africa Weather - South Africa, Africa Forecast - Tripadvisor
Autumn or fall in South Africa is April to May. It is generally warm and dry with days getting shorter and the temperature cooling as it gets closer to winter.

Winter in South Africa is June to August. It is generally dry and cool, with snow falling in the mountainous regions. The Cape is however wet as it gets most of its rain in winter being a Mediterranean climate.

September to October is springtime and the weather can be good, although rain is common.

You were the one who mentioned death during Fall, shorter days, hibernation... Remember? Why did you mention those, if it's not "such a big deal"?

 

[YoursTrue]

@ChristineM , @nPeace, @Bree, @Vee...
T...
...Now Mr. Faber has exhaustively shown in his three folio volumes that the mythologies of all the ancient nations are interwoven with the events of the Deluge and are explained by it, thereby proving that they are all based on a common principle, and must have been derived from a common source.

...The force of this argument is illustrated by the fact of the observance of a great festival of the dead in commemoration of the event, not only by nations more or less in communication with each other, but by others widely separated, both by the ocean and by centuries of time. This festival is, moreover, held by all on or about the very day on which, according to the Mosaic account, the Deluge took place, viz., “The 17th day of the second month” — the month nearly corresponding with our November. [See Genesis 7:11]

The Jewish civil year commenced at the autumnal equinox, or about September 20, and the 17th day of the second month would therefore correspond with the fifth day of our month of November; but as the festival was originally, as in Egypt, preceded by three days’ mourning, it appears to have been put back three days in countries where one day’s festival only was observed, and to have been more generally kept on November 2nd.

Very, very interesting. Thanks for bringing this out.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

They did but they died out fairly quickly after the Second Temple was destroyed.

I didn’t know that! Interesting.

The point is, if false teaching & schisms existed back then, then even more would arise in later times.

Such distortions of a religion’s origins happened & continues to an even greater degree in Christianity (currently, over 33,000 sects!) This fact actually supports my POV of spiritual truth, and that there is something intent on corrupting it.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, shockingly.

Do you know many geologists?

Here's something again --
Scientific Proof Is A Myth (forbes.com)
You might actually want to read it.
In part, "But as validating as that is — and as powerful as it is to falsify alternatives — it's completely impossible to prove anything in science." Completely impossible. Com-plete-ly impossible. Completely. I am so glad I followed these discussions on RF -- as I have often said, when I was in school, college biology classes, I thought everything they taught was TRUE. T-r-u-e. I was a scholarship student. I thought they were telling me the absolute truth. Without doubt. As you guys and gals have taught me here -- "it's completely impossible to prove anything in science." (Forbes.)
I honestly did not know that when I was taking biology in school. Again, I thought everything they taught me was true. No teacher ever said maybe it's not true. Or -- things can change -- because it's all based on theoretical posits and analysis. And these are not written in stone. (So to speak...hehe. Brings me back to dating procedures, oh well.) Nope. not one conjecture as I have been reading in the textbooks (college textbooks on evolution) is proven. It may seem rational, but -- it is not proven. And can change. So thanks again.