djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Sad, but true. Please name one "same sex" couple in the Bible.
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The following was unashamedly stolen from the Christian DIR forum
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
Sad, but true. Please name one "same sex" couple in the Bible.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Why do you hold God accountable for them?
You are right George. Christianity is such a diverse religion, it cannot be honesty painted with such a broad brush.
David and Johnathon
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Nice try! That's like assuming Jesus and John.
Skwim
Veteran Member
A very curious question which makes me wonder what your point is, but how about two of them.
The following people are often cited as being "same sex" couples
Ruth and Naomi described in Ruth 1.
David and Jonathan described in various parts of First and Second Samuel
Of course many Christians deny this, which is to be expected, but I believe there's sufficient reason to give them credence.
Oh yes, there's also the Centurion and his beloved servant in Matthew 8 whom scholars are sure were a homosexual couple.
BTW, just what is the point of your request? Thinking a lot about homosexuality lately?
.
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Not an assumption, clearly stated ...
“When David had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was bound to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. Saul took him that day and would not let him return to his father’s house. Then Jonathan made a covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul. Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that he was wearing, and gave it to David, and his armor, and even his sword and his bow and his belt.” (1 Samuel 18:1-4)
“You son of a perverse, rebellious woman! Do I not know that you have chosen [David] the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of your mother’s nakedness? For as long as the son of Jesse lives upon the earth, neither you nor your kingdom shall be established.” (1 Samuel 20:30)
“David rose from beside the stone heap and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. He bowed three times and they kissed each other and wept with each other; David wept the more. Then Jonathan said to David, ‘Go in peace, since both of us have sworn in the name of the Lord, saying, “The Lord shall be between me and you, and between my descendants and your descendants, forever.” ’ He got up and left; and Jonathan went into the city.” (1 Samuel 20:41-42)
“Saul and Jonathan, beloved and lovely!
In life and in death they were not divided;
they were swifter than eagles,
they were stronger than lions.
How the mighty have fallen in the midst of battle!
Jonathan lies slain upon your high places.
I am distressed for you my brother Jonathan;
Greatly beloved were you to me;
your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.”
(2 Samuel 1:23, 26-27, emphasis added)
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Are you? You made the OP!
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks...
This is going to always be a very VERY contentious issue - especially in this modern world where it seems,anything goes and is accepted as normal..Now Iam a CHRISTian - a TRUE Christian I mean - I follow CHRIST - yet I will NEVER set foot in an organised church institution nor would I ever choose the Bible to show me His truth or the truth of My Father....He told us blatantly and repeatedly to AVOID such external sources of "truth" - didnt He ?..YES - He did - EMPHATICALLY and repeatedly - you MUST come to HATE your parents He said (meaning their accepted truths and traditions) - and He said that simply because He knows it is NOT the whole truth of our predicamant here, and such erroneous sources of knowledge from WITHIN the world of man will ALWAYS lead us to this CONFUSION about our Self - our nature - and our position in the universal Creation - and really - that is what existance here is all about - uncovering that Self truth,it is the very essence and intent of all mortal life..
The RELIGIOUS christian - simply stated, is not a CHRISTian at all - for they ACTUALLY follow a MAN - a priest or vicar or pope - and they ACTUALLY adhere to so called wisdom,that was given yet again by other MEN who wrote down and literally DICTATED that which they now believe....This issue of sexuality - the bible churchian type who believe they follow Christ, is actually following opinion of MAN - and seems they have a great deal of trouble reconciling those teachings with the world they find they now inhabit....They are taught that homosexuality is wrong - and sorry to be blunt - but in that example they are entirely correct - yet they dont know how or why it is wrong, for they dont know Who or What they ACTUALLY ARE....
All they see - is the ACT in the world out there - and because they are trapped here surface mind,dictated response - they simply never look beyond to see WHY the act occurred - without this knowledge,there can never be that which they term "forgiveness" - there can never be understanding or acceptance.....And look closely here - this homosexual issue - NOT ABOUT GENETICS - not at all - nobody is born a homosexual - they LEARN it - it is wholly and purely a RESPONSE to SOCIETY - The thing is here - mortal life is confusing us - we need to seperate NATURAL ACTS OF LOVE - from acts of SEXUAL PLEASURE.....There is a HUGE huge difference...Understand clearly - to actually BE a homosexual - you must obviously ENGAGE in the male sex act with other males - it is the sexual act itself that literally DEFINES the homosexual activity...But understand here - this act - HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LOVE - we should not confuse our natural love with sexual imperative - not at all - we should NEVER allow the mortal to DEFINE WHO and what we ARE...
It is the act itself that is offensive - to the SOUL of the TRUE Christian - it has nothing to do with society - or dictates - it has nothing to do with LOVE for fellow man - as they say HATE the "sin" but love the sinner - and this is something churchian bible adhering types fail to grasp or understand - the ACT itself is the taboo here NOT the love aspect....Consider - Iam male - I have MANY many male friends,relatives,aquaintancies - I do honestly LOVE them all - but there is no need to express that love in a sexual union with them - that act cant define my love - BUT - if I identify with the act too closely - I will forget my Self and adopt that lesser perspective of Self entirely...Especially true in sexual matters - as sex itself is so mortally all consuming - addictive - prime directive FOR a MORTAL...If spirituality has some kinf of progressive heirachy like a ladder we climb as we Ascend Home - then sorry - homosexuals and sexual deviants of all kinds, stand firmly on the first step, and by their own actions they tether their Self down at that low level and prohibit their own spiritual advancement...
Sex act does NOT equate to love - so this issue already has become something other than we believed it was - homosexual relationships are NOT about love at all - they are about SEX itself - personal gratification (this is why the vast majority of homosexuals are SINGLE and go from one partner to the next ,even multiple partners - simply because it was always first and foremost about the sexual pleasure - and if along the way they meet the "one" then all well and good I guess - if / when it happens the lifestyle will change accordingly - perhaps they will become monogamous - but make no mistake - it was the drive for sexual fulfilment that drove them to the act, and it was NOT a matter of seeking Love and marriage etc etc - but purely a physical response......
Need proof ??..As offered Iam MALE - I fully love OTHER males - yet I do not feel an urge to copulate with any of them to "show my love".......Homosexuality is just that - SEXUAL - the clue is in the word itself..lol..you MUST be engaging in the act itself to BE homosexual,and that act itself has NOTHING to do with love either spiritual or mortal - but everything to do with personal physical sexual gratification....
Im just going to be brave - honest as I see it - and state it clearly - ANYONE who performs ANY unnatural sex act - has no spiritual truth of Self..They simply have not learned yet Who and What they truly are - and when they do - those lower base impulses - will not even enter into their heads anymore...LOVE is NOT sex - so lets not confuse the issue with pc blanket societal acceptance - such acts are NOT normal,never were and never should be accepted as normal - for accepting such base mortal desires means we will forego the truth of our ACTUAL and eternal predicamant - and so,we will literally trap our Self here - in the flesh - base mortal and NEVER realise our Divine potential....By such BLIND blanket acceptance FORCED upon us by those we give our power to - society as a whole - will and has indeed - trapped itself,anchored itself - returned again to the lower levels of confusion and Self ignorance...
That IS what it is all about - coming to know the Self fully and completely - we ARE a UNIFIIED BEING - all exist as part of My Father - this unity is expressed always as the emotion of LOVE and this love is our NATURAL condition...In the confusion that mortal life has generated - that society here has generated - we have literally FORGOTTEN OUR NATURE - and now adopt and accept all manner of contrary natures to fill the void that we know exists within us..We still SEEK the truth of our Self - yearn for the UNITY of BEING that is exopresse here as Love - and inthe confuison,we have equated the MORTAL PHYSICAL dirve to be the Divine eternal drive - yet we have FORGOTTEN our Self,and so,simlpy cannot reconcile the two...Mostly - some though - wake to them Self - and when they do, they begin to see Life here very differently indeed....To such an awakened Soul - the very physical act itself - the placing of the male member into THAT body cavity of all things - is seen for the utter DEGRADATION of their Soul that it ACTUALLY is....Within the act itself - we literally take the DIVINE essence of Self - and literally - dump it in a cess pool - it simply does not get any more PROFANE than that and to the awakened Soul, this act will ALWAYS bring an emotion of pure disgust, for it embodies the "anti soul" world of flesh completely - is the very thing that is trapping the Soul here,..
The awakened Soul - sees the homosexual engage in such acts - willfully - and so they know intuitively,these people are ignorant of Who and what they are, eternally - so there is no need for any judgement or condemnattoin - certainly no need for any hatred at all - EVER - but - the awakened Soul will wish to have no association at all with such a base mortal - and indeed Christ knew how all this would play out as those here who seek Him authentically,awake to His truth in the manner He prescribed, thus such truths are revealed directly Soul to Soul, spirit to spirit and not gained parrot fashion secondahnd,coerced and forced upon us from mans societal dictates, but intuitively known as the living eternal truth - He DID NOT give us ,as the church does - a long long list of "dos and donts" to help us iuncover this truth of Self - instead - He told us only two simple rules for dealing with the world out there...First - tell no lies He said - and second - do not partake or associate with those things that cause you to feel Self loathing - do NOT do as society does,just to be accepted BY that society...We should listen to this advise here inthis modern time..We should quit following MAN then - and get in touch with our own Soul instead..He showed us a means to access this great spirit He taught us about - a way to invoke a Divine Presence within - the Holy Ghost as it became known - I advise us all - invoke THAT Presence first - always - then decide under ITS guidance,the truths of the world out there...As always - for those with ears to hear...
This is going to always be a very VERY contentious issue - especially in this modern world where it seems,anything goes and is accepted as normal..Now Iam a CHRISTian - a TRUE Christian I mean - I follow CHRIST - yet I will NEVER set foot in an organised church institution nor would I ever choose the Bible to show me His truth or the truth of My Father....He told us blatantly and repeatedly to AVOID such external sources of "truth" - didnt He ?..YES - He did - EMPHATICALLY and repeatedly - you MUST come to HATE your parents He said (meaning their accepted truths and traditions) - and He said that simply because He knows it is NOT the whole truth of our predicamant here, and such erroneous sources of knowledge from WITHIN the world of man will ALWAYS lead us to this CONFUSION about our Self - our nature - and our position in the universal Creation - and really - that is what existance here is all about - uncovering that Self truth,it is the very essence and intent of all mortal life..
The RELIGIOUS christian - simply stated, is not a CHRISTian at all - for they ACTUALLY follow a MAN - a priest or vicar or pope - and they ACTUALLY adhere to so called wisdom,that was given yet again by other MEN who wrote down and literally DICTATED that which they now believe....This issue of sexuality - the bible churchian type who believe they follow Christ, is actually following opinion of MAN - and seems they have a great deal of trouble reconciling those teachings with the world they find they now inhabit....They are taught that homosexuality is wrong - and sorry to be blunt - but in that example they are entirely correct - yet they dont know how or why it is wrong, for they dont know Who or What they ACTUALLY ARE....
All they see - is the ACT in the world out there - and because they are trapped here surface mind,dictated response - they simply never look beyond to see WHY the act occurred - without this knowledge,there can never be that which they term "forgiveness" - there can never be understanding or acceptance.....And look closely here - this homosexual issue - NOT ABOUT GENETICS - not at all - nobody is born a homosexual - they LEARN it - it is wholly and purely a RESPONSE to SOCIETY - The thing is here - mortal life is confusing us - we need to seperate NATURAL ACTS OF LOVE - from acts of SEXUAL PLEASURE.....There is a HUGE huge difference...Understand clearly - to actually BE a homosexual - you must obviously ENGAGE in the male sex act with other males - it is the sexual act itself that literally DEFINES the homosexual activity...But understand here - this act - HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LOVE - we should not confuse our natural love with sexual imperative - not at all - we should NEVER allow the mortal to DEFINE WHO and what we ARE...
It is the act itself that is offensive - to the SOUL of the TRUE Christian - it has nothing to do with society - or dictates - it has nothing to do with LOVE for fellow man - as they say HATE the "sin" but love the sinner - and this is something churchian bible adhering types fail to grasp or understand - the ACT itself is the taboo here NOT the love aspect....Consider - Iam male - I have MANY many male friends,relatives,aquaintancies - I do honestly LOVE them all - but there is no need to express that love in a sexual union with them - that act cant define my love - BUT - if I identify with the act too closely - I will forget my Self and adopt that lesser perspective of Self entirely...Especially true in sexual matters - as sex itself is so mortally all consuming - addictive - prime directive FOR a MORTAL...If spirituality has some kinf of progressive heirachy like a ladder we climb as we Ascend Home - then sorry - homosexuals and sexual deviants of all kinds, stand firmly on the first step, and by their own actions they tether their Self down at that low level and prohibit their own spiritual advancement...
Sex act does NOT equate to love - so this issue already has become something other than we believed it was - homosexual relationships are NOT about love at all - they are about SEX itself - personal gratification (this is why the vast majority of homosexuals are SINGLE and go from one partner to the next ,even multiple partners - simply because it was always first and foremost about the sexual pleasure - and if along the way they meet the "one" then all well and good I guess - if / when it happens the lifestyle will change accordingly - perhaps they will become monogamous - but make no mistake - it was the drive for sexual fulfilment that drove them to the act, and it was NOT a matter of seeking Love and marriage etc etc - but purely a physical response......
Need proof ??..As offered Iam MALE - I fully love OTHER males - yet I do not feel an urge to copulate with any of them to "show my love".......Homosexuality is just that - SEXUAL - the clue is in the word itself..lol..you MUST be engaging in the act itself to BE homosexual,and that act itself has NOTHING to do with love either spiritual or mortal - but everything to do with personal physical sexual gratification....
Im just going to be brave - honest as I see it - and state it clearly - ANYONE who performs ANY unnatural sex act - has no spiritual truth of Self..They simply have not learned yet Who and What they truly are - and when they do - those lower base impulses - will not even enter into their heads anymore...LOVE is NOT sex - so lets not confuse the issue with pc blanket societal acceptance - such acts are NOT normal,never were and never should be accepted as normal - for accepting such base mortal desires means we will forego the truth of our ACTUAL and eternal predicamant - and so,we will literally trap our Self here - in the flesh - base mortal and NEVER realise our Divine potential....By such BLIND blanket acceptance FORCED upon us by those we give our power to - society as a whole - will and has indeed - trapped itself,anchored itself - returned again to the lower levels of confusion and Self ignorance...
That IS what it is all about - coming to know the Self fully and completely - we ARE a UNIFIIED BEING - all exist as part of My Father - this unity is expressed always as the emotion of LOVE and this love is our NATURAL condition...In the confusion that mortal life has generated - that society here has generated - we have literally FORGOTTEN OUR NATURE - and now adopt and accept all manner of contrary natures to fill the void that we know exists within us..We still SEEK the truth of our Self - yearn for the UNITY of BEING that is exopresse here as Love - and inthe confuison,we have equated the MORTAL PHYSICAL dirve to be the Divine eternal drive - yet we have FORGOTTEN our Self,and so,simlpy cannot reconcile the two...Mostly - some though - wake to them Self - and when they do, they begin to see Life here very differently indeed....To such an awakened Soul - the very physical act itself - the placing of the male member into THAT body cavity of all things - is seen for the utter DEGRADATION of their Soul that it ACTUALLY is....Within the act itself - we literally take the DIVINE essence of Self - and literally - dump it in a cess pool - it simply does not get any more PROFANE than that and to the awakened Soul, this act will ALWAYS bring an emotion of pure disgust, for it embodies the "anti soul" world of flesh completely - is the very thing that is trapping the Soul here,..
The awakened Soul - sees the homosexual engage in such acts - willfully - and so they know intuitively,these people are ignorant of Who and what they are, eternally - so there is no need for any judgement or condemnattoin - certainly no need for any hatred at all - EVER - but - the awakened Soul will wish to have no association at all with such a base mortal - and indeed Christ knew how all this would play out as those here who seek Him authentically,awake to His truth in the manner He prescribed, thus such truths are revealed directly Soul to Soul, spirit to spirit and not gained parrot fashion secondahnd,coerced and forced upon us from mans societal dictates, but intuitively known as the living eternal truth - He DID NOT give us ,as the church does - a long long list of "dos and donts" to help us iuncover this truth of Self - instead - He told us only two simple rules for dealing with the world out there...First - tell no lies He said - and second - do not partake or associate with those things that cause you to feel Self loathing - do NOT do as society does,just to be accepted BY that society...We should listen to this advise here inthis modern time..We should quit following MAN then - and get in touch with our own Soul instead..He showed us a means to access this great spirit He taught us about - a way to invoke a Divine Presence within - the Holy Ghost as it became known - I advise us all - invoke THAT Presence first - always - then decide under ITS guidance,the truths of the world out there...As always - for those with ears to hear...
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Skwim
Veteran Member
You do realize, don't you, that this makes no sense whatsoever. But whatever.
Oh yes, I hope my two suggestions for "same sex" couples in the Bible has satisfied your need. And I do understand your reluctance to explain your request.
.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Why doesn't it make sense "to you"? It was "you" who searched the internet and found the "discussion" of someone voicing his opinion on Christians and the "LGBT" community. What were you looking for or thinking about when you found that? Homosexuality?
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Apparently you haven't read Ruth 1, nothing suggests they were a "same sex" (LGBT) couple.
Ruth 1:22 (ESV Strong's) 22 So Naomi returned, and Ruth the Moabite her daughter-in-law with her, who returned from the country of Moab. And they came to Bethlehem at the beginning of barley harvest.
Ruth 2:2 (ESV Strong's) 2 And Ruth the Moabite said to Naomi, “Let me go to the field and glean among the ears of grain after him in whose sight I shall find favor.” And she said to her, “Go, my daughter.”
Ruth 3:1 (ESV Strong's) 1 Then Naomi her mother-in-law said to her, “My daughter, should I not seek rest for you, that it may be well with you?
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
I guess David was a bisexual then. Did he have a secret love affair with Johnathan?
1 Samuel 25:42-44 (ESV Strong's) 42 And Abigail hurried and rose and mounted a donkey, and her five young women attended her. She followed the messengers of David and became his wife.
43 David also took Ahinoam of Jezreel, and both of them became his wives. 44 Saul had given Michal his daughter, David's wife, to Palti the son of Laish, who was of Gallim.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
If your computer, thanks to a glitch, loses all of your information and sends your ID info to criminals, wouldn't you think the IT department that created said computer should help out?
If the snuggling fits...
Ah, but just because two men love each other more than any wives noted to the extent that one goes completely bonkers if the boyfriend dies but cares nothing for the mounds of vaginas he has back home and just because they get naked together and just because ... anyway, of COURSE they're hetero!
And you know nothing of the science behind the matter. If it's a choice, choose to have sex with a guy and like it. No? Then I guess you didn't choose to be straight, huh?
What is a natural act of love and how does that differ from "pleasure"? And if you're not getting any pleasure ... that's really not our problem now, is it?
In other words, if you think too much about having sex with men, you might discover you're actually gay, which is what happens to most homophobes, per science.
First rule of being in the closet (or so I imagine): tell lots of stories of opposite sex conquests to distract from the fact you loved the prince instead.
McBell
Unbound
That your "argument" is contingent upon the version of the Bible you prefer, it is rather difficult to take seriously.
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks..
Kelly;
Ah my dear Lady - I think (know) that ACTUALLY you will find here if we are HONEST - that SCIENCE ITSELEF - doesnt know YET what it is talking about - do they ??....I myself though,actually Do keep up to date witht he latest and best sources and for a layman, i have a pretty good grasp of all this ( I have help )
What I mean is - the scientific definitive answer - is yet incomplete - is it not ??....They DO NOT know or understand this fully - yet - though perhaps one day..Now look and understand the LOGIC of that which they DO KNOW ALREADY though - as in for a crucial start here - our DNA is AFFECTED BY ENVIROMENTAL FACTORS - to a great but as yet largely unknown degree...Therefore in a very REAL SENSE - society itself is PRODUCING gay men by the direction and INFLUENCES society is placing upon us all....And lets not forget - these studies they do to examine DNA - the individuals are ALREADY GAY - and so,a s we are about to kearn - LOGICALLY - there is a very REAL CHANCE that their own lifestyle has ALREADY ALTERED THEIR DNA....To be accurate - we would need to test NEW BORN BABIES - then follow them into adulthood to see "how they turn out" - yes ..??..Anything else can only give us a bias inthe data - and YES - every test so far has been on ADULTS..See the implications as we learn how DNA RESPONDS to the lifestyle of the INDIVIDUAL..As you seem to like science and rely on THAT for "wisdom" - then lets allow ALL the science to be relevant - yes..?..
Science believes that to understand DNA alone and they will find out what makes a human...They are entirely wrong - there is a "missing ingrediant" - I call it the Divine spark - and without its true Wisdom,all material knowledge we thus far hold is going to turn out to be pretty useless...Even after decoding like three billion bits of code and mapping our genome completely - there was still not enough information to provide all the answers as to what ACTUALLY makes us human - what ACTUALLY makes it all work, eludes them FULLY... One of the problems is that many genes can be switched off, or ‘"silenced", by the body itself - DYNAMICALLY as and when required..This occurs through a process we call methylation,.. Since this silences a gene making it redundant and yet - without actually altering the genetic code itself, methylation is another layer of information and guiding principles that OVERLAY the genetic code itself and help it ADAPT TO ITS ENVIROMENT !!
Methylation of DNA is a natural way that a lifeform regulates itself, its own body structure - but external factors can affect this dramatically... We know already of lots of examples of this - when a honey bee larva is fed on royal jelly its methylation levels fall, causing it to develop ovaries, grow larger and live longer, i.e. become a queen.. However, it is not just food that is important; mice change their DNA methylation patterns depending on how much attention their mothers paid them as a pup...This is nowhere near as balck and white as you would like it to be - based on ALL THE DATA - it actually looks like NOT a "gay gene" at all - but a sex gene that gets switched on or off - BY MISTAKE- dependant upont he CHILDS ENVIROMENT and the PREDOMINANT INFLUENCES of its young life....Testing the genes of ALREADY gay men - ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS based on ALL that we know...They are BORN STRAIGHT - and society is to blame for the changes - that IS what ALL the scientific evidence thus far suggests....
You REALLY need me to explain what love is..?...OK - I start by telling you that which it aint - it aint SEX - natural acts of love - are the expression of the common bond we all share as a living Sentient Soul that is eternally a part of a greater Spirit...Natural love - is the cherishing of all life - but again - that doesnt mean you need to copulate with all life to express that love - do you see..?...Homosexual relations - are about SEX - as always - the clue isin the word itself - or re read the explanation above for clarity...I LOVE my brother,son,male friends and everybody else actually - but again - this is not a sexual impulse at all - the fact that homosexuals IDNETIFY FULLY with the sexual element itself,is the crucial difference..OH and btw - all love gives me pleasure - I give it freely always express my true nature without restraint - and yes indeed,life is very pleasurable for me - thanks for the concern though,unfounded..
Am glad you said that - means you see the validity in my post here then yes..?...THINKING about being gay, may indeed - alter our very genetic makeup itself - if society continues to embrace homosexual behaiviour as normal, then this WILL be reflected - eventually - in the dna of males directly and we should LOGICALLY EXPECT THIS TO HAPPEN - SOCIETY is ALTERING our genetic RESPONSES and we have ample evidence all ofver nature that veifies it..
I can tell you of course - the MIND controls EVERYTHING, as this is how CREATION happens - be that Universal Creation direct at Source - or be that individual Creation as Soul inhabits material form - all the same process - Karma - mind and Self perception controls EVERYTHING - and this "mind influence" is the very thing that science fails to understand at all
Kelly;
Ah my dear Lady - I think (know) that ACTUALLY you will find here if we are HONEST - that SCIENCE ITSELEF - doesnt know YET what it is talking about - do they ??....I myself though,actually Do keep up to date witht he latest and best sources and for a layman, i have a pretty good grasp of all this ( I have help
)What I mean is - the scientific definitive answer - is yet incomplete - is it not ??....They DO NOT know or understand this fully - yet - though perhaps one day..Now look and understand the LOGIC of that which they DO KNOW ALREADY though - as in for a crucial start here - our DNA is AFFECTED BY ENVIROMENTAL FACTORS - to a great but as yet largely unknown degree...Therefore in a very REAL SENSE - society itself is PRODUCING gay men by the direction and INFLUENCES society is placing upon us all....And lets not forget - these studies they do to examine DNA - the individuals are ALREADY GAY - and so,a s we are about to kearn - LOGICALLY - there is a very REAL CHANCE that their own lifestyle has ALREADY ALTERED THEIR DNA....To be accurate - we would need to test NEW BORN BABIES - then follow them into adulthood to see "how they turn out" - yes ..??..Anything else can only give us a bias inthe data - and YES - every test so far has been on ADULTS..See the implications as we learn how DNA RESPONDS to the lifestyle of the INDIVIDUAL..As you seem to like science and rely on THAT for "wisdom" - then lets allow ALL the science to be relevant - yes..?..
Science believes that to understand DNA alone and they will find out what makes a human...They are entirely wrong - there is a "missing ingrediant" - I call it the Divine spark - and without its true Wisdom,all material knowledge we thus far hold is going to turn out to be pretty useless...Even after decoding like three billion bits of code and mapping our genome completely - there was still not enough information to provide all the answers as to what ACTUALLY makes us human - what ACTUALLY makes it all work, eludes them FULLY... One of the problems is that many genes can be switched off, or ‘"silenced", by the body itself - DYNAMICALLY as and when required..This occurs through a process we call methylation,.. Since this silences a gene making it redundant and yet - without actually altering the genetic code itself, methylation is another layer of information and guiding principles that OVERLAY the genetic code itself and help it ADAPT TO ITS ENVIROMENT !!
Methylation of DNA is a natural way that a lifeform regulates itself, its own body structure - but external factors can affect this dramatically... We know already of lots of examples of this - when a honey bee larva is fed on royal jelly its methylation levels fall, causing it to develop ovaries, grow larger and live longer, i.e. become a queen.. However, it is not just food that is important; mice change their DNA methylation patterns depending on how much attention their mothers paid them as a pup...This is nowhere near as balck and white as you would like it to be - based on ALL THE DATA - it actually looks like NOT a "gay gene" at all - but a sex gene that gets switched on or off - BY MISTAKE- dependant upont he CHILDS ENVIROMENT and the PREDOMINANT INFLUENCES of its young life....Testing the genes of ALREADY gay men - ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS based on ALL that we know...They are BORN STRAIGHT - and society is to blame for the changes - that IS what ALL the scientific evidence thus far suggests....
You REALLY need me to explain what love is..?...OK - I start by telling you that which it aint - it aint SEX - natural acts of love - are the expression of the common bond we all share as a living Sentient Soul that is eternally a part of a greater Spirit...Natural love - is the cherishing of all life - but again - that doesnt mean you need to copulate with all life to express that love - do you see..?...Homosexual relations - are about SEX - as always - the clue isin the word itself - or re read the explanation above for clarity...I LOVE my brother,son,male friends and everybody else actually - but again - this is not a sexual impulse at all - the fact that homosexuals IDNETIFY FULLY with the sexual element itself,is the crucial difference..OH and btw - all love gives me pleasure - I give it freely always express my true nature without restraint - and yes indeed,life is very pleasurable for me - thanks for the concern though,unfounded..
Am glad you said that - means you see the validity in my post here then yes..?...THINKING about being gay, may indeed - alter our very genetic makeup itself - if society continues to embrace homosexual behaiviour as normal, then this WILL be reflected - eventually - in the dna of males directly and we should LOGICALLY EXPECT THIS TO HAPPEN - SOCIETY is ALTERING our genetic RESPONSES and we have ample evidence all ofver nature that veifies it..
I can tell you of course - the MIND controls EVERYTHING, as this is how CREATION happens - be that Universal Creation direct at Source - or be that individual Creation as Soul inhabits material form - all the same process - Karma - mind and Self perception controls EVERYTHING - and this "mind influence" is the very thing that science fails to understand at all
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Skwim
Veteran Member
In as much as you choose to continue this how about first answering my question before going any further.
Question 1. Just what is the point of your request?
As I said, "Of course many Christians deny this, which is to be expected," so your objection comes as no surprise. My only question is,
Question 2. Why is this so important?
In any case, here's one take on it.
"'Same-Sex’ Relationships in the Bible
The stories of two prominent same-sex couples in the Scriptures provide gay men and lesbians
with Biblical models of committed love in stressful circumstances
Ruth and Naomi
The Book of Ruth is a romantic novel but not about romance between Ruth and Boaz. Naomi is
actually the central character, and Ruth is the "redeemer/hero." Boaz' relationship with Ruth, far
from being romantic, is a matter of family duty and property.
This story contains the most moving promise of relational fidelity between two persons in all of the
bible: "And Ruth said, 'Entreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for
whether thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people,
and thy God my God"
.
(Ruth 1:16)
Although used in heterosexual marriage ceremonies for years, this is a vow between two women!
When their husbands die in battle, Ruth makes thisvow to Naomi, her mother-in-law. Ruth
marries Boaz, a close relative, and redeems Naomi's place in her own family, also bearing a child
for Naomi. Did Ruth and Naomi have a lesbian relationship? There's no way to know, but it is
clear the two women had a lifelong, passionate, committed relationship celebrated in Scripture.
source
The stories of two prominent same-sex couples in the Scriptures provide gay men and lesbians
with Biblical models of committed love in stressful circumstances
Ruth and Naomi
The Book of Ruth is a romantic novel but not about romance between Ruth and Boaz. Naomi is
actually the central character, and Ruth is the "redeemer/hero." Boaz' relationship with Ruth, far
from being romantic, is a matter of family duty and property.
This story contains the most moving promise of relational fidelity between two persons in all of the
bible: "And Ruth said, 'Entreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for
whether thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people,
and thy God my God"
.
(Ruth 1:16)
Although used in heterosexual marriage ceremonies for years, this is a vow between two women!
When their husbands die in battle, Ruth makes thisvow to Naomi, her mother-in-law. Ruth
marries Boaz, a close relative, and redeems Naomi's place in her own family, also bearing a child
for Naomi. Did Ruth and Naomi have a lesbian relationship? There's no way to know, but it is
clear the two women had a lifelong, passionate, committed relationship celebrated in Scripture.
source
The relevant verses in Ruth 1 are.
15 Naomi said, “Look, your sister-in-law has gone back to her own people and her own gods. You should do the same.”
16 But Ruth said, “Don’t force me to leave you! Don’t force me to go back to my own people. Let me go with you. Wherever you go, I will go. Wherever you sleep, I will sleep. Your people will be my people. Your God will be my God. 17 Where you die, I will die, and that is where I will be buried. I ask the Lord to punish me if I don’t keep this promise: Only death will separate us.”
16 But Ruth said, “Don’t force me to leave you! Don’t force me to go back to my own people. Let me go with you. Wherever you go, I will go. Wherever you sleep, I will sleep. Your people will be my people. Your God will be my God. 17 Where you die, I will die, and that is where I will be buried. I ask the Lord to punish me if I don’t keep this promise: Only death will separate us.”
I expect reasonable answers to questions 1 and 2 before continuing. Don't have them: don't bother to reply. (I'll assume a lack of answers to be an admission ignorance: you don't know why you do some of the stuff you do.)
.
.
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
What about Jesus and the naked boy that was seen fleeing from Jesus' house in Mark 14:51-52?
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
What about those "relevant" verses lead anyone to believe in a "GAY" relationship?
Are you trying to tell me what I can and can't do? I have to do it "YOUR" way or no way! LMAO!!
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks..
Demonslayer; yer keep it in context though - we see its not necassarily relevant here - after all - there is no mention of Yeshua being WITH that man at all - it only says the man FOLLOWED AFTER - but understand, followed after Yeahua who was being led away by the Ceturions at sword point...We have no prior knowldge of this guy at all..
Now I tell you truth - besides the 12 - there were a MULTITUDE that would follow EVERYWHERE and hang on His every word...Keep it in context here and we soon see the probable truth of it...First - Yeshua sends TWO disciples to find a "stranger" who will lead thenm to this house where the later drama will unfold...It is NOT Yeshuas house at all - and second - we learn for sure there ARE more than the close 12 - because it goes on to say that LATER in the evening Yeshua AND the TWELVE go also to this house that the FIRST TWO disciples had found and PREPARED accordingly for them...Clearly - as said - this group is more than 12 strong - even though those close 12 are the only ones mentioned by names - many MANY followed Him EVERYWHERE....
This man here - is most probably one of these fringe followers - he saw what happened to Yeshua - tried to follow for his own reasons - got caught by the guards and fled..So - hes wearing basic clothing - perhaps he was asleep in the garden as all this commotion woke him..?...Nothing to suggest he was with Yeshua before hand - and as His actions on THAT night of all nights, are fully recorded here, there is not even a hint of anything homosexual about it at all..
Demonslayer; yer keep it in context though - we see its not necassarily relevant here - after all - there is no mention of Yeshua being WITH that man at all - it only says the man FOLLOWED AFTER - but understand, followed after Yeahua who was being led away by the Ceturions at sword point...We have no prior knowldge of this guy at all..
Now I tell you truth - besides the 12 - there were a MULTITUDE that would follow EVERYWHERE and hang on His every word...Keep it in context here and we soon see the probable truth of it...First - Yeshua sends TWO disciples to find a "stranger" who will lead thenm to this house where the later drama will unfold...It is NOT Yeshuas house at all - and second - we learn for sure there ARE more than the close 12 - because it goes on to say that LATER in the evening Yeshua AND the TWELVE go also to this house that the FIRST TWO disciples had found and PREPARED accordingly for them...Clearly - as said - this group is more than 12 strong - even though those close 12 are the only ones mentioned by names - many MANY followed Him EVERYWHERE....
This man here - is most probably one of these fringe followers - he saw what happened to Yeshua - tried to follow for his own reasons - got caught by the guards and fled..So - hes wearing basic clothing - perhaps he was asleep in the garden as all this commotion woke him..?...Nothing to suggest he was with Yeshua before hand - and as His actions on THAT night of all nights, are fully recorded here, there is not even a hint of anything homosexual about it at all..
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