The free will of man

[savagewind]

I have heard someone describe their free will choice of belief as "God would not allow me to believe as I do if it would cause any harm". To me that sounds like the person believes God is in charge of their free will. But then I think it is no longer the person's free will but God monitoring every belief the person has to believe.

OK

On the other hand it is believed that EVIL is caused by God's decision that free will should NOT become monitored in each person.

If free will exists to do evil, why is it taken away to do good? Or...to BE good?

You are free to believe what you want. I am free to believe what I want. But some people seem to believe they are NOT free to believe what might hurt them. So they will believe what they think is true with the feeling it won't hurt them because God would not allow that.

 

[Onkara]

I have heard someone describe their free will choice of belief as "God would not allow me to believe as I do if it would cause any harm". To me that sounds like the person believes God is in charge of their free will. But then I think it is no longer the person's free will but God monitoring every belief the person has to believe.

OK

Hi Savagewind
The above (and the last paragraph) sounds more like the Holy spirit. Would you see it that way too?

On the other hand it is believed that EVIL is caused by God's decision that free will should NOT become monitored in each person.

If free will exists to do evil, why is it taken away to do good? Or...to BE good?

You are free to believe what you want. I am free to believe what I want. But some people seem to believe they are NOT free to believe what might hurt them. So they will believe what they think is true with the feeling it won't hurt them because God would not allow that.

My view is that freewill doesn't end, we simply align our will with God's will. We can always fall away from Him, loose faith or become disenechanted and return to our self-will (or freewill).

 

[savagewind]

The question is; Does God (or The Holy Spirit) eliminate all lies from a person's conscience that will cause harm to the self or to others just because the person wants it that way?

Do you see like I see that God does not remove bad thoughts from a person that will lead to harm? But many believe that God does that for them. Why the discrepancy?

 

[Onkara]

The question is; Does God (or The Holy Spirit) eliminate all lies from a person's conscience that will cause harm to the self or to others just because the person wants it that way?

Do you see like I see that God does not remove bad thoughts from a person that will lead to harm? But many believe that God does that for them. Why the discrepancy?

Hi
Like you.
I do not believe the Holy Spirit removes the ability to lie (or lies) from a person. Rather the Holy Spirit is a guide (that is my impression so far).

The discrepancy is probably ignorance or lack of understanding of the teaching of the New Testament. It could even be because they do not have the Holy Spirit.

 

[savagewind]

Hi
Like you.
I do not believe the Holy Spirit removes the ability to lie (or lies) from a person. Rather the Holy Spirit is a guide (that is my impression so far).

The discrepancy is probably ignorance or lack of understanding of the teaching of the New Testament. It could even be because they do not have the Holy Spirit.

OK That sounds like the end of it to me. But I am not happy with that end.

 

[savagewind]

The belief that God will lead a person to righteousness whenever faith is put in God's ability to do so, but regardless of what the person believes, is not glorifying God, is it? And it is not putting faith in The Word, but in God's Power.

 

[Onkara]

The belief that God will lead a person to righteousness whenever faith is put in God's ability to do so, but regardless of what the person believes, is not glorifying God, is it? And it is not putting faith in The Word, but in God's Power.

I think it depends on the person, God's will cannot be manipulated to fit around a person's beliefs. You are right.

For exmaple, I cannot continue to believe that committing sins will happen until God stops me because my faith is in God's ability to stop me.

It would be like handing over responsibility for my actions through my faith in God to stop me. It is a lie and as you say it is not glorifying God. (I think that is your point and I am agreeing with it).

You are right too, it would be ignoring The Word or manipulating it to suit one's desire. Like saying "It's OK, if everything is God will then God has willed me to sin". That is wrong understanding of The Word.

 

[savagewind]

Thank you Onkara for your perspective. We are agreeing. My friends from the crowd I am from do not agree. They are not even allowed to think about it.

 

[savagewind]

Does the reader other than Onkara understand the problem?

It is much more a philosophical problem than a religious one.

There are people who believe it does not matter much how they understand the Way Truth and Life of salvation as long as they believe in it. In other words God will lead them to the place of salvation because they believe God will do that not because they understand it. It seems understanding comes later. I don't know. Whatever they believe that might be opposed to the Way Truth and Life is rendered benign by God because of their trusting The Person of God. The reason God does that is because God wants the person to be saved.

That is true, God wants salvation for all. I believe that.

But some people have thoughts that can and do become powerful for causing harm, even death.

People believe God will remove the power of falsehoods from the believer but not from the unbeliever. I wonder why?

 

[savagewind]

The reason why it is a problem for me is intent. It is not the intent of a believer to cause harm but it is believed Yahweh will not allow a believer to accept anything is true that is not true.

On the other hand it is a wicked person's intent to do harm. But Yahweh will allow a wicked person his wicked thoughts that lead to harm.

Can anyone explain that to me with the goal of adding glory to Yahweh please?

I don't think it is possible.

 

[savagewind]

Put another way the belief I am talking about goes like this "The God I believe in won't allow me to believe a lie because I have put my trust in my god".

By making it impossible to believe anything in opposition to God's goodness is taking away the person's free will to do that. It is my opinion that belief is against the free will of man. "I am not free to believe anything that can cause harm". And if that was true all believers would agree. No?

The belief that a person with faith in God cannot be misled is a very dangerous belief imo.

 

[savagewind]

I have a friend who is the same religion I was. I noticed that all my friends seemed to be giving up their souls to men who are in charge of the religion. I said to my friend Jamie, it is not good to put your trust in men as Psalms 146:3 warns us. She said Jehovah would not allow her to trust them, if they would mislead her. Because she is trusting in Jehovah and she is following their lead, they must be right. If they are not righteous she would not follow them. How does she know they are righteous? She believes they are. If they were not righteous she would not believe them.

Comments?

 

[savagewind]

I am sorry I cannot put this in philosophical debates. The Philosophy Section is for published works. I am not.

 

[Sleeppy]

There is no free will. Just being.. and the illusion of free will.

 

[savagewind]

Interesting.

In this instance it is about what a person is free to believe or not believe. I will believe what I know to be true. How do some people know what is true? By virtue of their putting themselves under God's care. They believe Yahweh will not permit them to believe something harmful. In other words, they are replacing their will with God's will. If what is true for them does not work righteousness, whose fault is it?

 

[Onkara]

Thank you Onkara for your perspective. We are agreeing. My friends from the crowd I am from do not agree. They are not even allowed to think about it.

Hi Savagewind
My impression is that the cause of doubt or misunderstanding is that your friends might think that they are 'flesh'; that they are of the body and so they are destined to sin and be sinners even after accepting Christ as their Saviour. This is why they may still believe they they will sin and it is up to God to stop them.

My personal understanding is that the Bible teaches that we are of Flesh but we are not Flesh - we are the soul. The soul is pure and not necessarily destined to sin. If someone knows they are soul, then they do not need to rely only on God to stop them from sinning, as they will be aware that it is the flesh which sins, not them. (I would need to back this up with scripture to be 100% sure).

 

[savagewind]

It seems to me that 'sin' has come to mean weakness in the flesh. The brain is flesh. Flesh thinks. So thinking can be considered 'flesh'. Sometimes sinning is strength of flesh then, isn't it? Thought of brain flesh takes over the person to lead him. That is fleshly, not spiritual. I have observed that some people do believe it was up to God to stop the wrong thought from taking hold. That would be giving up their will to God.

We should keep our will. I think God does not want it. We should freely affiliate our will with God's will though and learn to control our own selves intelligently.

Not magically.

 

[Onkara]

That's interesting Savagewind, I haven't considered will in that way nor the flesh to describe the brain, but that is true.

What would you use to learn to control your will yourself intelligently?

 

[savagewind]

That's interesting Savagewind, I haven't considered will in that way nor the flesh to describe the brain, but that is true.

What would you use to learn to control your will yourself intelligently?

Love and prayer. But if the person is fortunate to have what was written according to love and prayer, that too. 2 Timothy 4:13 When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments

 

[Onkara]

And what about your desires, do you restrict those to God's law?