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The Future For LGBT Catholics

uns4

New Member
Will it be possible for gay people to be accepted into the Catholic church in the future?

And by accepted I mean allowed to be their whole complete selves, to be allowed to marry the person of their choosing and consummate those marriages.

I feel a call to the Catholic Church but haven't been able to fully embrace it as a gay man with hopes of marrying my long term boyfriend.

I understand that Catholics believe marriage to be very sacred and for child rearing. But gay couples can have children if one of the partners is trans, and they can also foster or adopt. And also are straight couples with infertility related health issues marriages not sacred?

I just want the opinions of Catholics and other Christians.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
They are accepted in some Catholic churches although not in Roman Catholic ones. There are some RC Churches where this is viewed in a positive light, however official RC doctrine does not support it. You can find episcopal churches and anglican churches.

And by accepted I mean allowed to be their whole complete selves, to be allowed to marry the person of their choosing and consummate those marriages.
Its going to depend on the particular people. Many people currently do not like this idea at all. As with most issues, it is going to take patience; and you may not see in your time the goal that you envision. What you might see and are already partially seeing is more acceptance in some things, such as in communion; but your broader question about marriage is unlikely to change soon in every church.

If you feel this is the right path for the churches to take the thing to do is to look for the examples in which it has succeeded and to be ready with those examples for those who are interested. Secondly, no more guessing about the future of the church. What if the Wright Brothers took a survey on whether their flight control system would work? Well they'd have gotten a lot of people saying 'No'. Instead they tried and took the risk of failure, and they may well have failed. Now everyone knows its possible to get into an airplane, a huge metal tube, and fly over the ocean.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Will it be possible for gay people to be accepted into the Catholic church in the future?

And by accepted I mean allowed to be their whole complete selves, to be allowed to marry the person of their choosing and consummate those marriages.

I feel a call to the Catholic Church but haven't been able to fully embrace it as a gay man with hopes of marrying my long term boyfriend.

I understand that Catholics believe marriage to be very sacred and for child rearing. But gay couples can have children if one of the partners is trans, and they can also foster or adopt. And also are straight couples with infertility related health issues marriages not sacred?

I just want the opinions of Catholics and other Christians.

Not Christian - but was raised as one.

They have two future choices, - accept science and the fact that people are born gay, and they misunderstand so-called anti Gay verses in their texts, or disappear into history, as just another ancient religion, as modern educated young people realize the teachings are wrong.

*
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Will it be possible for gay people to be accepted into the Catholic church in the future?

And by accepted I mean allowed to be their whole complete selves, to be allowed to marry the person of their choosing and consummate those marriages.

I feel a call to the Catholic Church but haven't been able to fully embrace it as a gay man with hopes of marrying my long term boyfriend.

I understand that Catholics believe marriage to be very sacred and for child rearing. But gay couples can have children if one of the partners is trans, and they can also foster or adopt. And also are straight couples with infertility related health issues marriages not sacred?

I just want the opinions of Catholics and other Christians.

Do you really want an honest answer? Or one that gives you justification for your desired lifestyle?
Understanding that homosexuality is not a choice but a genetic dictation, makes this is a very difficult decision.

It seems as if "Christians" are divided on this issue, but what is it that really counts with you...the opinion of other "Christians"....the opinion of "the church"? or the opinion of the God they claim to worship? You must decide.

If Christians are supposed to take their instruction from God's word, then there is no taking of liberties with scripture, seeking justification for homosexual relationships. Scripture is clear and unambiguous. There can be no acceptance of "fornicators" in Christianity....gender does not matter. If you are sexually engaged in conduct that is scripturally reserved for "married" couples, then you come under condemnation from the Creator of human sexuality. Sex was designed to produce children like all other creatures on this planet. Whether a pregnancy results or not is irrelevant, it is the relationship that is God ordained. This is not negotiable. Illicit sex was punishable by death in the laws of Israel. Since Christians worship the same God, and the Bible states that he does not change, gay men and women who want to be Christians have some serious decisions to make. :( God's laws cannot be overridden by any church.

Now, "marriage" is another determining factor here. If you take man's definition of marriage and compare it to God's.....what is the clear scriptural position on that? Jesus said marriage is God's 'yoking' of a 'man and a woman' with a view to creating a family. In order for gay couples to have children, then at least a third partner is required in the "marriage". God's word does not allow for a threesome.

What about the psychological effect on children raised in homes where gender roles are blurred? I believe that to be well balanced, children need to be exposed to both genders. When gender roles become confused, then concepts become distorted. God created those gender roles to raise children in a balanced way. Father figures and mother figures are important role models....we learn what we live. I understand that in a perfect world, this might be an easy thing to deliver, but in this present world, alienated from the Creator on so many levels, children have their perceptions challenged even by heterosexual parents. But this was not the way God intended for relationships to be. They were supposed to create happy balanced families within the parameters he set for family life. Sin and imperfection led to things not being as he intended, so whilst he works through the issues that were raised in Eden, we are victims in many ways of the attitudes and conduct of the world we live in, as well as our own altered genetics.

So, what would matter most to you? Pleasing God....or pleasing your imperfect flesh. Its a powerful drive but not more powerful that the God who made us.

Sorry I can't offer you anything more. Sometimes we have to sacrifice for the one we love.....we either have to sacrifice God or our partner.....under God's law, we cannot have both, no matter how people try to justify things, it's a terrible decision either way.
 
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Apologes

Active Member
You're basically asking if the Church (perhaps RCC?) will allow priests to abandon celibacy (not sure why you focus on the LGBT which most likely won't happen and certainly not in your lifetime.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
...

Now, "marriage" is another determining factor here. If you take man's definition of marriage and compare it to God's.....what is the clear scriptural position on that? Jesus said marriage is God's 'yoking' of a 'man and a woman' with a view to creating a family. In order for gay couples to have children, then at least a third partner is required in the "marriage". God's word does not allow for a threesome?

...

The few places I see, - he is answering only SPECIFIC questions asked about married men and women.

Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

He speaks common sense - they were made male or female (except for hermaphrodites) so they could produce babies. But he does not say they have to marry as such, and produce babies.

He ADDS -

Mat 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

JESUS cannot be talking about castration/injury in these - born such - as legally those people would not have been allowed to marry in the first place!!!!

The only people whom are "eunuchs" when it comes to their WIVES, are homosexuals!! - They are going to have problems with "getting it up" when they are not attracted to women = EUNUCHS!

A state BEFORE BIRTH making them EUNUCHS - concerning marriage to women, and therefore ACCORDING TO JESUS the law does not apply to them!

"...the word generally designates some incapacity for or abstention from procreation, whether due to natural constitution or to physical mutilation. For instance, Lucian suggests two methods to determine whether someone is a eunuch: physical inspection of the body, or scrutiny of his ability to perform sexually with females (Lucian, Eunuchus 12)...." Eunuch - Wikipedia


Many people have wondered if the unmarried 33 year old Jesus was gay.

Many claim John is his beloved disciple.

*
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I just want the opinions of Catholics and other Christians.

No surprise that various personal opinions differ from the official position of the Church. My own personal opinion has been formed much by the post Vatican II 'pastoral' Council and Catholic literature that followed, emphasizing a more pastoral and inclusive attitude towards true homosexuals and begins with eliminating 'abomination' and 'perversion' from the conversation as a misinterpretation of Scripture. Once eliminated, the norms for judging homosexual relationships are the same as for heterosexuals and ought to be decided on the quality of the relationship. Homosexuality itself ought not disqualify one from a sacramental marriage.

One source I refer to is a book presented to me upon completion of a study in 'Christian morality', through our diocese no less!, which at that time still under the influence of Vat II, 'Morality and its Beyond' which has help form my own position on homosexuality.

There is a stark difference between the official attitude following two conservative popes. With the current pope, although not official, again pastoral, attitudes seem to be reversing once again.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
They have two future choices, - accept science and the fact that people are born gay,

I am not aware of any scientific consensus stating homosexuals are born homosexual, which could be critical for the church's official position as it has left the question of cause open and to be determined by science.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The few places I see, - he is answering only SPECIFIC questions asked about married men and women.

Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

He speaks common sense - they were made male or female (except for hermaphrodites) so they could produce babies. But he does not say they have to marry as such, and produce babies.

Lets see what Jesus said.....

"And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it...

That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh."
(Genesis 1:27-28; 2:24)

Jesus quoted these words when speaking of the sacred union of a man and his wife in God ordained marriage.

"In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” (Matthew 19:4-6)

How do you ignore these verses to quote the ones that do not support what you claim without reading things into the words that were never intended?

He ADDS -

Mat 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

JESUS cannot be talking about castration/injury in these - born such - as legally those people would not have been allowed to marry in the first place!!!!

Again you quote scripture out of context.What are those verse referring to?

Jesus said...."whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”

10 The disciples said to him: “If that is the situation of a man with his wife, it is not advisable to marry.11 He said to them: “Not all men make room for the saying, but only those who have the gift. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs on account of the Kingdom of the heavens. Let the one who can make room for it make room for it.”


Now what is Jesus talking about? The advisability of marriage for those who want to serve God without distraction is a "gift". He speaks of three separate causes of a man's choice not to marry.
The first one indicates a genetic reason (not the man's fault, but a reason not to marry because of sexual dysfunction) The second was those who had been physically castrated, which in Bible times was not uncommon. The third was those who had sacrificed marriage in order to serve the interests of God undistracted by the responsibilities of a wife and children ( a very noble pursuit in God's estimations)
This "gift" was used by many, but it wasn't a command...it was purely voluntary, as the closing words of that scripture show.

You have the ability to twist scripture to make it say what it does not. Why do you do that?

The only people whom are "eunuchs" when it comes to their WIVES, are homosexuals!! - They are going to have problems with "getting it up" when they are not attracted to women = EUNUCHS!

:facepalm: Not so. There are some born with very low testosterone levels who have no interest in sex as they fail to mature sexually.
There are many other reasons for sexual dysfunction, which may be treatable in our day, but certainly not in Bible times. Men who could not enter marriage and produce children were better off not marrying. Satisfying a wife's needs was his responsibility too. He would fail on all counts.

A state BEFORE BIRTH making them EUNUCHS - concerning marriage to women, and therefore ACCORDING TO JESUS the law does not apply to them!

Is that what you want the Bible to say? Is God responsible for the genetic deficiencies that cause all manner of defects in humans? Or was it sin by Adam's disobedience that introduced this inherent defectiveness into humanity? (Romans 5:12)
Under the Law covenant, a eunuch was not allowed to become part of the congregation of God’s people. (Deuteronomy 23:1)
The law applied with no exceptions, regardless of the cause. Yet they still had a future hope. (Isaiah 56:4-5)

Many people have wondered if the unmarried 33 year old Jesus was gay.

Many claim John is his beloved disciple.

Sick minds can think up a lot of things. Jesus wasn't put on this earth to marry and have children. He had a specific mission which did not involve leaving behind a widow and fatherless children....a very undesirable state in Israel. As a perfect man, he was in full control of his body....not prone to lust. (which is not to be confused with love) o_O
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I am not aware of any scientific consensus stating homosexuals are born homosexual,
According to one estimate by geneticists studying this matter as reported in "Scientific American" some years ago, they believe that around 4/5 of all people who say they're gay have a genetic predisposition for it, with the other 1/5 either being environmental or unable to be determined.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Will it be possible for gay people to be accepted into the Catholic church in the future?
The church does not consider gay impulses to be sinful but acting on them are considered as such. OTOH, Pope Francis has opened the door at least a crack wider on this, so let me recommend you discuss this with your local priest as he has some power of discretion on such matters. The worst that can happen to you is to be told you should not partake in the Eucharist.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
According to one estimate by geneticists studying this matter as reported in "Scientific American" some years ago, they believe that around 4/5 of all people who say they're gay have a genetic predisposition for it, with the other 1/5 either being environmental or unable to be determined.

I guess is the old 'nature or nurture' question which will never be answered to everyone's satisfaction.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I guess is the old 'nature or nurture' question which will never be answered to everyone's satisfaction.
If my memory is correct, they did manage to isolate the gene that's responsible. Also, homosexuality is also found amongst some monkeys and apes, much to the chagrin of some parents with their kids at the zoo.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I am not aware of any scientific consensus stating homosexuals are born homosexual, which could be critical for the church's official position as it has left the question of cause open and to be determined by science.

Are you aware that first form is female? And if chemicals don't kick in at the right time to make them male form, we end up with babies all over the spectrum, - dependent on which stage they did, or did not, kick in? Thus if these do not kick in at all - the child will always be female.

"p. 988 "Human chorionic gonadotropin also exerts an interstitial
cell-stimulating effect on the testes, thus resulting in the production of
testosterone in male fetuses. This small secretion of testosterone during
gestation is the factor that causes the fetus to grow male sex organs
."

"NOTE: basic internal sex is female; male development depends on hormone
> production (testosterone, DHT, and MDI" (Textbook of Medical Physiology,
by Guyton, 1986, ISBN 0-7216-1260-1, p. 956
*
"The default gender in the womb is female, which is perhaps hardly surprising given that the womb is an environment awash with female hormones. A genetically male fetus will therefore develop the female form of sexual organs until ‘maleness’ is switched on by the SRY gene on the Y chromosome, and the fetal testis starts to develop and then produce testosterone. Incidentally a functioning ovary is not needed to appear to be female, whereas a functioning testis is essential for a man."

"You can look at gender in several different ways. Being XX or XY makes you female or male, of course, but there’s actually more to it than that. For instance, you could be genetically female, genitally female (i.e. you have a normal vagina), but if the hormones produced by your sex organs (gonads) have been more male than usual, these would influence your brain type and thus your sex-typical behavior.
Hormones Factors in Fetus Gender and Child Future Development | Health Doctrine

That part I highlighted and underlined in blue - is where the chemicals may or may not kick in correctly - causing a full spectrum of homosexuality and transgender people.

"Many people believe that sexual orientation (homosexuality vs. heterosexuality) is determined by education and social constraints. There are, however, a large number of studies indicating that prenatal factors have an important influence on this critical feature of human sexuality. Sexual orientation is a sexually differentiated trait (over 90% of men are attracted to women and vice versa). In animals and men, many sexually differentiated characteristics are organized during early life by sex steroids, and one can wonder whether the same mechanism also affects human sexual orientation. Two types of evidence support this notion. First, multiple sexually differentiated behavioral, physiological, or even morphological traits are significantly different in homosexual and heterosexual populations. Because some of these traits are known to be organized by prenatal steroids, including testosterone, these differences suggest that homosexual subjects were, on average, exposed to atypical endocrine conditions during development. Second, clinical conditions associated with significant endocrine changes during embryonic life often result in an increased incidence of homosexuality. It seems therefore that the prenatal endocrine environment has a significant influence on human sexual orientation but a large fraction of the variance in this behavioral characteristic remains unexplained to date. Genetic differences affecting behavior either in a direct manner or by changing embryonic hormone secretion or action may also be involved. How these biological prenatal factors interact with postnatal social factors to determine life-long sexual orientation remains to be determined." Minireview: Hormones and Human Sexual Orientation
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
but a large fraction of the variance in this behavioral characteristic remains unexplained to date.

My point was that if there were such a scientific consensus it would drastically reduce the position taken by anti-homosexual religious activists who insist that one is a homosexual solely by choice and therefore the 'condition' may be reversed, corrected. That is not the position of the Catholic church as stated in the Catechism;

2358. "The number of men and women who have deep-seated HOMOSEXUAL tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their HOMOSEXUAL condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. "

I think Pope Francis has gone further in leaving it to ones conscience. For those heterosexuals who insist it is a matter of choice I ask them to remember the moment when they made a conscious choice to become a heterosexual.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
My point was that if there were such a scientific consensus it would drastically reduce the position taken by anti-homosexual religious activists who insist that one is a homosexual solely by choice and therefore the 'condition' may be reversed, corrected. That is not the position of the Catholic church as stated in the Catechism;

2358. "The number of men and women who have deep-seated HOMOSEXUAL tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their HOMOSEXUAL condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. "

I think Pope Francis has gone further in leaving it to ones conscience. For those heterosexuals who insist it is a matter of choice I ask them to remember the moment when they made a conscious choice to become a heterosexual.

They do indeed teach such, but science is proving them wrong.

As I said, - the church will either change, or slowly lose their young educated members, which speeds-up their death march, - which is already in progress.

This will likely - eventually - happen through a doctrinal switch, stating that the so-called, against homosexuals verses, are actually about specific "Sacred Sex" acts done in worship of Gods. Thus being about Idolatry, - and not actually condemning homosexuals, and their loving sex acts.

This will allow the church to hold it's head up, and allow them to not have to state that they were just plain wrong about homosexuality being a choice, and not the way a person is born.

Also, I personally believe, - since we have a steady percentage of homosexuals over time, - that there has to be an evolutionary reason for the continuation.

It has been noted by some, that homosexual births go up in times of great stress. This would be an evolutionary advantage after war, or famine, to slow the birth rate, allowing the tribe to recover, rebuild, and regrow enough food to support the tribe.

In other words able bodies, without the heterosexual addition - within a short time - of even more mouths to feed.

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