The global flood

[outhouse]

Did I say otherwise? I never denied the stories originated in the Mesopotamian area. I just said that that area had been conquered many times. These conquering people's would have adopted and adapted the flood story. Meaning, there were other people the Hebrews could have gotten the story from as the story was circulating widely.

Your face palms are getting a little old.

maybe you could have been a little more clear in this post

As for the flood, it could have came from many places.

and the answer is no it could not, we know where it came from.

 

[fallingblood]

maybe you could have been a little more clear in this post



and the answer is no it could not, we know where it came from.

Maybe in part but why assume that these Hebrew people, or proto-Israelites were able to keep such a long oral tradition, yet reject other stories they have that are quite old? You claim there is a historical basis for this flood story, which is an epic in the first place, yet deny any of the other stories in Genesis could have a historical basis. That seems a little illogical.

Also, it is also very possible that the Hebrews added other flood stories to this other one.

 

[Agnostic75]

Old Earth Creationists are also literalists.

Some Old Earth Creationists believe that a global flood occurred, but they are obviously not literalists.

I still stand by my claim that young earth creationism and belief in the global flood go hand in hand. The term "hand in hand" does not necessarily mean 100% of the time. In the context in which you used the term, the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines it as "in close association." I do not have any documentation other than the Wikipedia article that I mentioned, but I have never heard of anyohne who accepts on of the those claims, but not the other. There may be such people, but if there are some, I believe that there are very few of them.

 

[outhouse]

Maybe in part but why assume that these Hebrew people, or proto-Israelites were able to keep such a long oral tradition,

It was a long oral tradition kept alive with what 6 legends in the levant alone that all originated with the flood of 2900 BC. We know people migrated from mesopotaimian collapsed cultures where these stories were common knowledge.

yet reject other stories they have that are quite old?

what other stories ??? what words are you putting in my mouth this time ??

yet deny any of the other stories in Genesis could have a historical basis. That seems a little illogical.

LOL really??? claim something that has historicity

Also, it is also very possible that the Hebrews added other flood stories to this other one.

Um NO. thet created their epic fable to tell their own stories as allegory to build on their own morals and wants and needs. NOT someone elses

 

[Agnostic75]

Please provide the name of a church where a lot of people believe that God created humans pretty much as they are about 10,000 years ago, but do not believe that the earth is young, and that a global flood occurred.

If such churches exist, that is fine, but I am not aware of any. If there are any, I assume that there are very few of them.

Faith Family Church. They were such a church.

"Were such a church"? What does that mean? What city and state is the church in? It is reasonable for me to ask you for your sources.

I revise what I said to read "Please provide the name of a church where a lot of people believe that God created humans pretty much as they are about 10,000 years ago, but do not believe that the earth is young, 'and/or' that a global flood occurred."

 

[fallingblood]

Some Old Earth Creationists believe that a global flood occurred, but they are obviously not literalists.

I still stand by my claim that young earth creationism and belief in the global flood go hand in hand. The term "hand in hand" does not necessarily mean 100% of the time. In the context in which you used the term, the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines it as "in close association." I do not have any documentation other than the Wikipedia article that I mentioned, but I have never heard of anyohne who accepts on of the those claims, but not the other. There may be such people, but if there are some, I believe that there are very few of them.

YECs are about 12%, at most, of the population. People who are literalists, that is even higher. And those who believe a global flood, that is even higher. So you may not want to believe it, but then you have to prove that you're right. YEC is not a very prevalent idea among Christians. The official Catholic view, as well as the ECLA (the largest Lutheran Group) are against a YEC view. Yet, many also believe that a global flood occurred. Just that would show that you're wrong.

And why would Old Earth Creationists not be literalists?

 

[fallingblood]

It was a long oral tradition kept alive with what 6 legends in the levant alone that all originated with the flood of 2900 BC. We know people migrated from mesopotaimian collapsed cultures where these stories were common knowledge.

So it is possible to keep very old oral tradition alive.

I think we should also mention that it is possible we are also missing writings from that time. In fact, the OT talks about some writings that we simply no longer have.

what other stories ??? what words are you putting in my mouth this time ??

Abraham, the exodus, etc.

LOL really??? claim something that has historicity

Possibly Moses, and Abraham. Now, those may not have been their exact names, or they may have actually represented larger groups that were combined into one individual, yet, it is quite possible that there is an amount of historicity behind their stories. And yes, some scholars agree with this.

Um NO. thet created their epic fable to tell their own stories as allegory to build on their own morals and wants and needs. NOT someone elses

What? So they couldn't have added their personal experiences of various floods to this story as why? I'm not really following this.

We are talking about the Hebrews borrowing at least one epic and adapting it right? Because the two stories (actually at least three, as there are two in the Bible) are not exactly the same. So is it not possible that the Hebrews would have added their own experiences to these stories? I think so.

 

[fallingblood]

"Were such a church"? What does that mean? What city and state is the church in? It is reasonable for me to ask you for your sources.

I revise what I said to read "Please provide the name of a church where a lot of people believe that God created humans pretty much as they are about 10,000 years ago, but do not believe that the earth is young, 'and/or' that a global flood occurred."

I'm not going to try to look up the church. Why? Because I have no idea if they are there anymore (I've since moved). I can't find a website (many churches don't), and I just don't care. Really all you would have to do is look at an ELCA church, or Catholic church and know that you're wrong.

Maybe it is time you look for some actual information.

 

[outhouse]

I think we should also mention that it is possible we are also missing writings from that time. In fact, the OT talks about some writings that we simply no longer have.

Im sure we are missing writings.

Abraham, the exodus, etc.

and both of those are easily explained away as never happening.

Abraham a contruction of what the 5th and 6th century

the exodus only has a slight historical core at best in as much as people did migrate from egypt to Israel. That story never happened as stated.

 

[outhouse]

Possibly Moses, and Abraham. Now, those may not have been their exact names, or they may have actually represented larger groups that were combined into one individual, yet, it is quite possible that there is an amount of historicity behind their stories. And yes, some scholars agree with this.

Moses the law giver has no historicity at all. the only thing we could have that ressembles this is a egyptian that led egyptians or a nomadic tribe and a leader of unknown people to Israel. Honestly though they created history they did not live and we know they created this at a later date. one could discount 99% of the biblical story and no scholar would argue.

Abraham

talking about a possible mesopotamian origin of a man is all that ressembles the created story here. he has zero historicity as to where moses is very close to zero

 

[outhouse]

What? So they couldn't have added their personal experiences of various floods to this story as why? I'm not really following this.

Nope there were no epic floods in the 250 years of when these fables were written and the creation of these people.


All of these early fables are other peoples fables as they had no history of their own. they in fact did create their own hsitory to be able to tell their story and give themselves a IDENTITY all their own.

 

[Agnostic75]

I'm not going to try to look up the church. Why? Because I have no idea if they are there anymore (I've since moved). I can't find a website (many churches don't), and I just don't care. Really all you would have to do is look at an ELCA church, or Catholic church and know that you're wrong.

Maybe it is time you look for some actual information.

If you are right, that is fine. If I am wrong, everyone is wrong some of the time. I will try to find out more about this issue.

 

[Agnostic75]

YECs are about 12%, at most, of the population.

Evidence please.

Do you personally know, or know of, some young earth creationists who do not believe that a global flood occurred, or some people who believe that a global flood occurred who do not believe that the earth is young?

 

[Agnostic75]

I'm not going to try to look up the church. Why? Because I have no idea if they are there anymore (I've since moved). I can't find a website (many churches don't), and I just don't care. Really all you would have to do is look at an ELCA church, or Catholic church and know that you're wrong.

Maybe it is time you look for some actual information.

You have asked me for evidence that backs up my claims. I am asking you for evidence that backs up your claims. If you are right, that is fine. All that I am asking for is evidence that backs up your claim.

 

[Agnostic75]

And why would Old Earth Creationists not be literalists?

Do you know of some Old Earth Creationists who accept the story of Adam and Eve, and the global flood story?

 

[Agnostic75]

Edit: Deletion of unnecessary post.

 

[fallingblood]

Nope there were no epic floods in the 250 years of when these fables were written and the creation of these people.


All of these early fables are other peoples fables as they had no history of their own. they in fact did create their own hsitory to be able to tell their story and give themselves a IDENTITY all their own.

Prove it. You have taken an absolutist position here. And it definetly isn't the only opinion scholars take.

 

[fallingblood]

You have asked me for evidence that backs up my claims. I am asking you for evidence that backs up your claims. If you are right, that is fine. All that I am asking for is evidence that backs up your claim.

I gave you the information. Now, I'm done.

 

[Agnostic75]

YECs are about 12%, at most, of the population.

Evidence please.

Do you personally know, or know of, some young earth creationists who do not believe that a global flood occurred, or some people who believe that a global flood occurred who do not believe that the earth is young?

In the U.S., biblical literalists are still a large group. An article that you posted says that "about one-third of Americans today believe the Bible is absolutely accurate and that it should be taken literally word for word." That is over 70 million Americans.

 

[outhouse]

Prove it. You have taken an absolutist position here. And it definetly isn't the only opinion scholars take.

I already have quit back peddling

Most scholars agree noahs legend comes from mesopotamian sources. END of story here.


There is a attested flood of 2900BC and 3 different stories that originated from this culture before the hebrews created their version.

They are not old enough as a culture to have a flood history of their own.