The Gods & Goddesses

[shankara_kalady]

Is it right to say that the Hindu deities are man-made?

As an example, take the Ayyappan from southern India. The story goes that the Vaishnavites and Shaivites were fighting over, and Ayyappan was their truce deal. As Ayyappan was born out of Mohini (avatar of Vishnu) and Shiva.

 

[Onkara]

Hi
I suggest you make your own mind up, that is the flexibility that Hinduism provides us. If you feel you cannot accept that literally, then I kindly suggest looking for a symbolic or moralistic meaning. What do the deities nature and actions represent in each occasion, for example.

It isn't really "right" to say that it is man-made as ultimately nothing is man-made, everything is divine in origin according to hinduism. Something can only be man-made if we believe creator (Brahman) is separate from creation (man). I know this takes you literally at your word, where as you may have meant it less literally, however the point is that to understand something, such as the purunas, it can help a lot to understand the grounds on which it is based and then put our intellect to work.

Taittriya Upansihad:
II-vii-1: In the beginning all this was but the Unmanifested (Brahman). From that emerged the manifested. That Brahman created Itself by Itself. Therefore It is called the self-creator.

II-viii-5: He that is here in the human person, and He that is there in the sun, are one.

III-v-1: He knew knowledge as Brahman; for from knowledge, indeed, spring all these beings; having been born, they are sustained by knowledge; they move towards and merge in knowledge.

Chandogya Upanishad
III-xiv-1: Verily, all this universe is Brahman. From Him do all things originate, into Him do they dissolve and by Him are they sustained.

 

[shankara_kalady]

I guess your talking about pantheism here? Thanks for the info.

 

[Charzhino]

Taittriya Upansihad:
II-vii-1: In the beginning all this was but the Unmanifested (Brahman). From that emerged the manifested. That Brahman created Itself by Itself. Therefore It is called the self-creator.

I thought Brahan was self-sufficient and timeless. If he created Himself, then there was a time where he didn't exist?

 

[Satsangi]

This verse is meant to say that the whole creation is Brahman. In fact, there is only Brahman; the creation is also Brahman.

Regards,

 

[Onkara]

I guess your talking about pantheism here? Thanks for the info.

Hello Shankaraji
Yes, it is useful to think of it as pantheism, but perhaps without any formality that the term might bring with it.

I thought Brahan was self-sufficient and timeless. If he created Himself, then there was a time where he didn't exist?

Hello Charzhinoji
Good point. You are correct, Brahman is self-sufficient and timeless. I take "created" to apply to material existence as we know it. I base this on the philosophical position that something cannot come from nothing, therefore there was always something, beyond time, formless and unfathomable etc.

 

[Madhuri]

I thought Brahan was self-sufficient and timeless. If he created Himself, then there was a time where he didn't exist?

As Onkara says above, it refers to the material universe. And this goes in cycles too, of creation and destruction. So once the universe is destroyed, it will be the end and a new beginning.

 

[chinu]

Is it right to say that the Hindu deities are man-made?

Dr: is the symbol for Docter,
Eng: is the symbol for Engineer,
Arc: is the symbol for Architects,
etc .......

Similarly in the old times, Deities are the symbols used for Spiritual Arts, as in the old times there was no any devloped means of languages like today, so the spiritual masters use to educate peoples by making their statues.

_/\_Chinu.

 

[Milind2469]

Yes they are.

All Gods and Godesses in Hinduism were humans when they lived on earth.
Because of their supreme karma they are close to the supreme power Bramha.
Their worship can get us all we want.
They have such power.
So they are Gods to us.
We also worship trees, cow, other animals, sun, wind, fire....etc , why surprise when we worship the great men of the past.

 

[Onkara]

Namasté Milind
On what grounds do you feel confident to say that, please? Personal experience, scriptures, logic etc?

 

[Milind2469]

Namasté Milind
On what grounds do you feel confident to say that, please? Personal experience, scriptures, logic etc?

Dear Onkara ji, Namaste.

I was considering the examples of the popular Gods.

Lord Ram, Krishna, Pandvas, Sita,.... lived like humans. They were kings. They were biologically born. They married and fathered children. They had emotions just like we have. Ram cried when Sita was taken away. etc etc. They were humans.

Then why do we consider them Gods? Esp. in case of Ram, he is considered as Ideal man, ideal king , ideal son etc. Such a person with immeasurable good karma has achieved the status of God, no doubt. There have been many saints, sadhus who worshipped these Gods (Ram, Krishna)..and these Gods have met them in various forms which I would be unable to explain.

This is just as it is explained in books. I do not have any different personal experience.

Apart from this there are other Gods in Puranas. They are supposed to be humans who lived in Krit yuga. Shankar was supposed to be physically iving in Himalaya (as against being omnipresent), Gajanan was supposed to be leading a group.. Gananayak. (as against leading all the living beings), Some of them fought with other races such as Rakshasas just like humans fight war (as against being devoid of any emotions).....so on and so forth.

All these examples tell us that they were humans although much more superior in powers and abilities and due to their Tapa, sadhana, super powers etc, they have become super humans, we worship them and they sometimes shower us with their blessings if we pray to them with pure heart.

 

[Onkara]

Thank you, Milind ji
It is helpful to better understand your perspective on this important topic.
If we consider these exceptional beings as humans, as you describe, it opens some new ways to approach the puranas and even Sanatana Dharma, wouldn't you say?

Today's society shouts out for scientific "proof". The world is no longer unexplored and in the same way the moon has been "confirmed" as uninhabited by alien life, it is hard for some people to accept that gods walked the world and spoke to mortals.

I wonder if there will ever be a satisfactory answer to the question of "Avatars". Your answer provides some hope

 

[atanu]

I thought Brahan was self-sufficient and timeless. If he created Himself, then there was a time where he didn't exist?

Brahman is also the generic name that underlies a category of things as the common factor. The Deity of speech is called Brahman of all words. Similarly, the Deity of Seeing (the Seer) is called Brahman of all forms.

The self sufficient immutable Brahman is beyond all categories and yet is the common thread beneath all categories -- manifest and unmanifest. To distinguish that, some term it parabrhama or param atman or purusha or mahesvara. Whether unmanifest or the manifest, the Seer is the common thread.

...

 

[Satsangi]

Yes they are.

All Gods and Godesses in Hinduism were humans when they lived on earth.
Because of their supreme karma they are close to the supreme power Bramha.
Their worship can get us all we want.

I beg to differ Milindji. God is God- in human or fish or Narsinh or Kurma form or Brahman form - ALL are one and the same. In BG, Lord Krishna says "Janma Karma cha divya me so veti tattvata ha..." In that Shloka He says that the one who understands My birth, My leelas as divine (not human); that person does not come back for rebirths- he is liberated. God is Ajanma inspite of taking birth, He does not "die"- He leaves the body at His free will, His acts are leelas and are sung by Bhaktas as they are in itself effortlessly liberating to the Jiva. Human's acts are just acts (or misbehaviors!).

Hence, I believe that from a Devotee's view point, all the acts of an Avatar are Divine, the Avatars are the God Supreme (the Brahman or ParaBrahman) and NOT just a human with "better Karmas, Tapas".

Regards,

 

[Milind2469]

I beg to differ Milindji. God is God- in human or fish or Narsinh or Kurma form or Brahman form - ALL are one and the same. In BG, Lord Krishna says "Janma Karma cha divya me so veti tattvata ha..." In that Shloka He says that the one who understands My birth, My leelas as divine (not human); that person does not come back for rebirths- he is liberated. God is Ajanma inspite of taking birth, He does not "die"- He leaves the body at His free will, His acts are leelas and are sung by Bhaktas as they are in itself effortlessly liberating to the Jiva. Human's acts are just acts (or misbehaviors!).

Hence, I believe that from a Devotee's view point, all the acts of an Avatar are Divine, the Avatars are the God Supreme (the Brahman or ParaBrahman) and NOT just a human with "better Karmas, Tapas".

Regards,

I agree with you dear Satsangi ji, in principle.

In fact, I had taken the question in a different context.

The question is whether the deities or the Gods that we worship, or the entities that the worshipped idols in temples represent ,had taken birth on earth in human form, or not.

So naturally the answer is yes.