The Good, the Bad and God

[Link]

Yes, there are ambiguous verses which are to test the Muslims.

Your questions can be applied. Was it fair for Shiites to be oppressed, God make it ambiguous after all and gave the impression that tyrants should be obeyed and not the family of Mohammad according to you.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You should read hadiths about the sorcery, the fact is the sorcerers cast a sorcery regarding Abu Bakr and Umar right after Prophet (s) died, or even near his death, they started spreading false lies to the Prophet (s) a long with casting sorcery.

There is still till this day, a dark spell pertaining to not only these verses, but other verses. By language, it's actually very clear.

According to you, because Ulil-Amr (a) were taken to be tyrants like Yazeed or the stooges in form of scholars that said to obey tyrants (scholars of sunnis), the term Ulil-Amr and it's context, is ambiguous in Quran.

Yes, Muslims became totally blind to the Quran, the companions who understood it were a minority now surrounded by a majority that opposed them and even fought them in the start and oppressed them and tortured them for believing.

The fact was, the Jibt (sorcery) was believed in, the Taghut that which was really worshipped, and God and his chosen were defeated.

So now, don't tell me majority. Majority are in hell, they are not authority.

So, if the majority of Muslims went tin wrong direction and misunderstood Quran from beginning of Islam, then what is your understanding is of the verse 2:143?

"Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you...."

What does it mean the Muslims are a middle Ummah? In what sense? How different they are, in comparison with other Ummahs, such as Christian's, or Jews?

 

[Link]

So, if the majority of Muslims went tin wrong direction and misunderstood Quran from beginning of Islam, then what is your understanding is of the verse 2:143?

"Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you...."

What does it mean the Muslims are a middle Ummah? In what sense? How different they are, in comparison with other Ummahs, such as Christian's, or Jews?

You speak about hadiths - when trying to prove your Bahaism, but ignore them with respect to everything else.

Why don't you read hadiths about this subject.

 

[Link]

How different they are, in comparison with other Ummahs, such as Christian's, or Jews?

How are they different, they are more cursed, Chrisitians and Jews have a distorted holy text, while Quran remains intact, and Muslims ignore it's clear signs and injunctions.

Once again, appealing to an interpretation which the family of Mohammad (s) have refuted and shown by Quran to be false.

Ummatan doesn't mean nation here.

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

Actually, this once again prove my point that Islam isn't meant to be an universal religion. If what you are saying is true and only the Ahlul Bayt A.S. can give proper interpretation of the Holy Qur'an, then it is useless for us now since they are no longer with us and we can't understand it properly in their absence [let alone implement it properly]. Perhaps Qur'an was only meant to be followed by the follower of Ahlul Bayt and those who can understand it properly [when they are presented to clear up misconceptions.

 

[Link]

Actually, this once again prove my point that Islam isn't meant to be an universal religion. If what you are saying is true and only the Ahlul Bayt A.S. can give proper interpretation of the Holy Qur'an, then it is useless for us now since they are no longer with us and we can't understand it properly in their absence [let alone implement it properly]. Perhaps Qur'an was only meant to be followed by the follower of Ahlul Bayt when they are presented to clear up misconceptions.

This is somewhat true. This is why Imam Ali (a) talked about a time (and this a conditional Prophecy, it means at that rate we are going astray and people betraying ahlulbayt) when there will be no true religion or group and that Quran will among the people but not really among them and Quran and it's people will be hidden, without any place or land nor as a group will they be officially known.

This is a Prophecy that is conditional like almost all Prophecies of Quran are conditional. Of course, knowing the conditions happened, we see the Prophecy has become true.

 

[Link]

This is why Islam is a false religion and Quran not so guiding and not so important. What is more important is human rights and justice in this day and age.

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

This is why Islam is a false religion and Quran not so guiding and not so important. What is more important is human rights and justice in this day and age.

Now we are on the same page. Well said, sir!

 

[Link]

Now we are on the same page. Well said, sir!

I've been saying this for a while. Islam as is is but idolatry.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Your questions can be applied. Was it fair for Shiites to be oppressed, God make it ambiguous after all and gave the impression that tyrants should be obeyed and not the family of Mohammad according to you.

Yes, but when the believers are oppressed, this is a test of belief for the believers. When they remain steadfast in the cause of Allah, they will be rewarded. Although they would have a free will, to join the oppressors. But, where does it say, the slaves would be rewarded? And how would the slave have a free will to be saved from oppressor?

 

[metis]

I've been saying this for a while. Islam as is is but idolatry.

That's simply untrue as Islam forbids idolatry in any form.

 

[Link]

Yes, but when the beluevers are oppressed, this is a test of belief for the believers. When they remain steadfast in the cause of Allah, they will be fewarded. Although they would have a free will, to join the oppressors. But, where does it say, the slaves would be rewarded? And how would the slave have a free will to be saved from oppressor?

No, God tells believers to pray to him not to be a fitna for those who disbelieve. I disagree with you.

I read Ulil-Amr in Quran and it's clear to me. I know by language rules that it's about divinely appointed leaders and specifically the family of Mohammad as they were compared to the family of Abraham in flow to 4:59 (see 4:54).

There is no doubt in my mind, God is clear there. You are trying to make it as if God was unclear when he wasn't.

It's the sorcery that makes people forget to contextualize it and breaks the flow. With the flow and context, it's clear.

Do you ever feel sleepy and tired when reading Quran? That's part of the curse. Getting bored, trying to get the end... that's part of the curse.

Makes you want to read it heedlessly, lest, everything in it starts to click and the flow seen.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You speak about hadiths - when trying to prove your Bahaism, but ignore them with respect to everything else.

Why don't you read hadiths about this subject.

I have read. It means, Muslims are not the last and final Ummah. They are a middle Uimmah. So, just as there were Jews and Christians before Muslims, there will be new people after Muslims... So Islam is not the last one!

 

[Link]

That's simply untrue as Islam forbids idolatry in any form.

So does Judaism and Christianity, yet Quran says a great portion of them if not majority worshiped their scholars, not by really officially worshiping them, but because they followed them with respect to allowing what God forbid and forbid what God allowed. Basically, they knew better that their teachings were not suited to be attributed to God but followed them anyways. This means, you are claiming to follow them to follow God, but really, they are using God as in excuse to Worship these people.

 

[Link]

I have read. It means, Muslims are not the last and final Ummah. They are a middle Uimmah. So, just as there were Jews and Christians before Muslims, there will be new people after Muslims... So Islam is not the last one!

It refers to being a middle course/way to God, and it refers to the family of Mohammad as being witnesses to humanity per hadiths of Shiite sources.

 

[metis]

So does Judaism and Christianity, yet Quran says a great portion of them if not majority worshiped their scholars, not by really officially worshiping them, but because they followed them with respect to allowing what God forbid and forbid what God allowed. Basically, they knew better that their teachings were not suited to be attributed to God but followed them anyways. This means, you are claiming to follow them to follow God, but really, they are using God as in excuse to Worship these people.

But, as you say in your lead, this is found in all religions with some, namely to blindly believe the leaders rather then reading, studying, and then drawing their own conclusions. That's not what "idolatry" is, but what it constitutes is a form of self-imposed ignorance.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It refers to being a middle course/way to God, and it refers to the family of Mohammad as being witnesses to humanity per hadiths of Shiite sources.

What do you mean by middle course, or middle way to Allah. It says Allah appointed Muslims as the middle people. It doesnt say, middle way. If
Allah wants to say middle way, why He says middle people?

 

[Link]

But, as you say in your lead, this is found in all religions with some, namely to blindly believe the leaders rather then reading, studying, and then drawing their own conclusions. That's not what "idolatry" is, but what it constitutes is a form of self-imposed ignorance.

If you valued God above all else, you wouldn't disobey him and attribute him falsehood to follow anyone. This is the main thesis of the Torah Gospels, and books between, and the Quran.

It shows the way forward and God says, I will appointed you leaders, so don't follow leaders aside from these. This is the main message of the Torah for example, when it talks about Seth and Samuel and contrasts it with those who claim to be Samuels (they named themselves with name of God) and it's because of those who claim it, to represent God and his teachings, that all corruption occurred in which Noah (a) wasn't followed despite his efforts and as a result caused God to drown the people.

 

[InChrist]

The bible attributes a formidable number of atrocities to God. As a small sample –

Genesis 22:9 – God orders a human sacrifice and Abraham takes him seriously (though it’s called off).

God’s rules for buying, owning, disciplining, bonking, selling &c slaves are set out in Exodus 20-21, 22:1-3, 23:12, 26-27, 32, Leviticus 19:20-22, 25:39-55, Deuteronomy 5:14, 15:12-18, 21:10-14, 23:15-16, 24:7. including, famously, how to sell your daughter.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 Massacres and religious intolerance – “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders massacre.

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders mass rape.

Joshua 1 – God orders the invasion of Canaan so his people can seize the territory.

Joshua 6:17, 6:21 – God orders, and Joshua performs, the massacre of the population of Jericho.

Judges 11 – God makes a deal with Jephthah, miliary victory in exchange for the human sacrifice of Jephthah’s daughter. This is done, and Jephthah is elevated to Judge (ruler) of Israel.

2 Samuel 21 – God refuses to call off the famine until seven sons of Saul have been killed by impalement to expiate Saul’s bloodguilt.

2 Kings 2:23 – God murders children for being rude to Elisha about his bald head.

Hosea 13:16 – God condones the ripping open of pregnant women as part of massacring one’s enemies.

Jonah 1:7-15 – God demands the sacrifice of Jonah (though it’s converted to whalery).

NT – God refuses to forgive sin until Jesus is made a sacrifice to him.

John 8:44 Religious intolerance– Jesus says to the Jews, “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”
​

In Plato’s dialog Euthyphro, Socrates asks Euthyphro to explain τὸ ὅσιον to hosion – that which is pious, proper, permissible, good – to him. This is commonly simplified in English to ‘good’ and the relevant question of Socrates is expressed as –

"Is good loved by the gods because it is good? Or is it good because it is loved by the gods?"​

Some Christians maintain both that the bible is inerrant and that God is entirely good, which is to say, a thing is good because God approves of it, and conversely bad because God disapproves of it.

In that case, all the instances above must be examples of good, because they’re infallibly attributed to the Christian God.

I find every one of the examples (and many more like them not listed) to be morally repulsive, truly vile.

Is God right, or am I?

Looks like you’ve been reading up on one of the many anti-God websites where they love to pull verses out of context and show how “evil God is”.

Obviously, if the God which the Bible reveals as all-wise, all-knowing and
the Source of love and justice, then you are missing something because if your limited understanding of the reasons God brings judgement and/or allows humans the freedom to make choices which often bring destructive consequences to themselves and others.

My view is that God is right. He alone has all the information, not you.

 

[Link]

What do you mean by middle course, or middle way to Allah. It says Allah appointed Muslims as the middle people. It doesnt say, middle way. If
Allah wants to say middle way, why He says middle people?

Is Abraham a people? Quran says Abraham was an umma per Quran, you don't know Arabic enough to comment to be honest brother. And you don't know hadiths enough to speak on behalf of Ahlulbayt.