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The Gospel According to Anonymous.

Do we know who wrote the Gospels?


  • Total voters
    27

outhouse

Atheistically
Maybe you should look up the Gezer Calender.... its a piece of archeological evidence that the average Isrealite was capable of reading and writing long before the 1st century. This was a farmers tablet detailing the agricultural year.... if a farmer could read and write, why not a fisherman?

images

Pegg, how can you with a straight face bring this to the table?


Its possible Canaanite, and 3000 years old.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
In the first century, people of all sorts knew how to read and write. On this point, Alan Millard, professor of Hebrew and ancient Semitic languages, observed:


Pegg, your reaching here.

Alan is a known admitted bible literalist, he doesn't hold any credibility among modern scholars.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You need to find some better 'professors'


No Pegg.

Most people in Israel were hard working peasants with no money for papyrus or writing tablets, and they had no reason to write anything.

I'm sure a few knew numbers and such, and even a few words. But that doesn't mean they could pick up and read a book or write anything at all.

The known literacy rate was roughly 3%-10% but this depended on exactly where one lived.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
that is not the consensus view. The Watchtower has done a fair bit of research on the matter and here is a snipet from an article in a 2008 watchtower

In the first century, people of all sorts knew how to read and write. On this point, Alan Millard, professor of Hebrew and ancient Semitic languages, observed: “Writing in Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew was widespread and could be found at all levels of society.”


That's not from a 2008 watchtower article. It's from Alan Millard's 2000 book Reading and Writing in the Time of Jesus. As Chancey points out in Greco-Roman Culture and the Galilee of Jesus, Millard bases his view on
1) the idea of a Galilee where Greek was spoken widely, because it was hellenized. And it was hellenized, clearly, because Greek was spoken widely. In other words, circular reasoning.
2) Millard points to "government-issued inscriptions, whether civic, Herodian, or Roman" and then assumes that because that most people could read them.

The problem with both assumptions are well-documented. For the 2nd, as Thomas points out in his study "Writing, Reading, Public and Private 'Literacies'" (in Ancient Literacies: The Culture of Reading in Greece and Rome), these such inscriptions were often read to the general public, not by the general public. In much the same way scribes were hired to produce letters like Paul's (who at one point states that he is writing a particular portion of a letter himself, indicating that he had, like many or most, dictated the rest).

Not only that, but as JF Healey points out in "The Writing of the Wall: Late Aramaic Epigraphy" (from Writing and Ancient Near East Society), Millard takes the abundance of inscriptions in regions found outside of Galilee (such as Jerusalem), and decides that a parallel situation can be found in Galilee. However, not only are such inscriptions quite rare, but the diversity of semitic (as well as Greek & Latin) inscriptions in places like Jerusalem, Nabataea, Edessa, Hatra, and elsewhere show a great deal of diversity in the number of inscriptions.

Which leads neatly into the abundance of studies and the consensus view which has rather thoroughly trashed Millard's major argument. The archaeological excavations at Galilee which, when Millard wrote, were in their infancy, have destroyed the "myth of a gentile galilee" (the title of Chancey's first monograph on the subject). Studies by Reed, Chancey, Freyne, Savage, Root, Choi, Aviam, and others have all thoroughly examined the lack of any archaeological support (and plenty of evidence against) the idea of a Hellenized Galilee in Jesus' day. As this hellenized Galilee is key to Millard's argument, the fact that it is now an outdated view unsupported by archaeological evidence (not to mention socio-economic approaches and the combination of both) means his argument has no support.


Consequently, there were usually people present who could have written something they heard, whether for their own reference or to inform others.”

This may be true, but even if it is true the problem is whether or not they would. Orality studies are now a century old and quite advanced, combining work in classics, biblical studies, anthropology, cognitive psychology, and even literary and performance theories. Oral cultures simply do not think about texts and writing the way that highly literate cultures do. We have actual writers from ancient Greece to the Roman empire expressing a distaste for written texts rather than oral reports, teachings, etc.

What we have in our sources of Jesus teachings, parables, aphorisms, etc., make it quite clear that he taught/preached the way people did all throughout the ancient world and beyond. The use of parables, aphorisms, etc. and the forms they take are designed so that they can be both performed over and over again and so that they can be remembered and repeated. As numerous authors (Bryskog, Gerhardsson, Reisner, Horsley, Bailey, Dunn, Boomershine, etc.) have pointed out, not only was the early Christian community transmitting oral "material" which the gospel authors used, they likely began this while Jesus was still living and as a teacher/preacher in an oral society, he used styles, cues, and forms to facilitate oral transmission and memorizing, not written. It is possible that some may have taken notes, but there is no reason to suspect.

The fact that later rabbis took notes is not enough to overcome the amount of contrary evidence. Boomershine notes that perhaps the single figure as thoroughly studied after Jesus, Socrates, likewise taught extensively but never wrote. Bauckham and Byrskog both point out the importance both within and outside of early Christian literature (including the NT) emphasizes the importance of perception (hearing and seeing), whether as an eyewitness or as one getting oral reports from eyewitnesses. Even where we'd expect to find only or mainly written communication (e.g., in terms of laws and codes), we find both literate and illiterate Greeks memorizing these (see Carawan's study in the volume Orality, Literacy, Memory in the Ancient Greek and Roman World) and the "lawyers" (lögsögumaðr/lawspeakers) of the nordic world were those who committed law to memory (see e.g., "Making and Using Law in the North"). We also have examples of "scribes" who can't read.


Another example illustrates that writing boards and their use were evidently known at this time. In the book of Acts, we read that Peter was speaking to a crowd in the temple area, exhorting them: “Repent . . . get your sins blotted out.” (Acts 3:11, 19) The expression ‘get blotted out’ comes from a Greek verb that means “wipe out, erase.”

It's the other way around. The word in 3:19 (ἐξαλειφθῆναι/exaleiphthenai; the aorist infinitive passive of ἐξαλείφω/exaleipho) means centrally to "cover up" or to "wash over/away", but can mean be used to mean everything from "obliterate" to "clearing away" thoughts. Also, it was extended to the use of reusable writing materials. The word for "write" means "draw", and writing was seen as closer to "drawing" even when it was centuries old.


The Gospel accounts also show that Jesus’ followers and audiences included people who likely used writing in their everyday work. There were, for example, the tax collectors Matthew and Zacchaeus (Matthew 9:9; Luke 19:2); a synagogue officer (Mark 5:22); an army officer (Matthew 8:5); Joanna, wife of a high official under Herod Antipas (Luke 8:3); as well as scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, and members of the Sanhedrin. (Matthew 21:23, 45; 22:23; 26:59) No doubt, many—if not all—of Jesus’ apostles and disciples were able to write.

1) You are assuming not only that these accounts happened the way they are said or that these people were who they were described, but also that they had the ability to write and chose to (odd for reasons given above) and finally that the gospel authors not only had access to these reusable (as in, not designed to be permanent but to be erased) tablets, but made use of them
2) Many of these encounters, even if they happened, would be extremely odd situations for the people described to start jotting down notes. The gospels portray the scribes, pharisees, or sadducees as Jesus' rivals or even enemies. Why would they jot down on a reusable tablet what he was saying, and then end up giving these to his followers after he was executed?
3) Again, lots of people who'd one would think had to write did not, lots of those had to write couldn't read, and lots of those who could do both chose not to. Being able to write in a primarily oral culture does not mean one often does.

How can they all be illiterate AND be in occupations which required them to be literate such as a tax collector or officer of the synagugue and even members of the sanhedrin who would have been schooled in the rabbinical schools.
1) There were no rabbis, as the word didn't come to be a type of person until after the destruction of the temple, the rise of the synagogue and the finally universally recognized "oral torah".
2) There is no reason to think a tax collector would have to be literate. Scribes were often illiterate, and were hired because all they had to do was copy one text (it was basically drawing).
3) Literate people in the Greco-Roman world, from legal administrators to historians, frequently chose to memorize rather than read, communicate orally rather than write, and rely on oral accounts rather than written.
4) Even if they were all literate, again Jesus' teachings were designed for oral/aural transmission. They were deliberately constructed to heard and (for followers) memorized in some sense/form.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Pegg, your reaching here.

Alan is a known admitted bible literalist, he doesn't hold any credibility among modern scholars.
He absolutely holds credibility. He's an expert with a long history of academic publications, postitions, and has been cited by scholars across multiple fields. The fact that he is wrong here makes him no less credible than Crossan, as
1) Millard based much of his argument on the view of a Hellenized Galilee, the way that Crossan and so many others did
&
2) Crossan requires a much greater level of interaction between educated Greeks and Romans and the peasants of Galilee than does Millard, as Crossan has a Jewish peasant learning from a Greek philosopher who taught him the cynic philosophy which Crossan posits is at the core of Jesus' identity and ministry. Even peasant Jews had more education when it comes to literacy than those from other cultures, as the Jewish population relied on a set of written texts which formed a core part of their identity. Jesus may or may not have been able to read somewhat, but that doesn't really matter as 1) if he could, it probably wasn't well, and 2) he was clearly making use of oral/aural techniques to teach/preach.

However, Crossan's Jesus not only would have to speak Greek (how else is he going to learn from a Greek teacher or teachers the Greek Cynic philosophy?), but is basically a string of contradictions. He's a hellenized Jew who is seen as a threat to the hellenized authorities, He's a preacher of peace, love, and harmony who is seen as a political threat, and he wandered around Jewish villagers preaching Greek philosophy and managed to gain some following, which lasted after he was executed (for being the threatening hellenized, egalitarian philosopher he somehow was) by people who'd ignore a guy like him yet for reasons Crossan can't explain, in this case made sure that a concerted effort between Jewish and Roman authorities resulted in a public, humiliating, excruciating, execution.

Millard is wrong here. But he was writing during a time when his thesis was less implausible, and there were others who went much further (again, Crossan, Mack, Funk, even Horsley to some extent). And nobody is right all the time.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
He absolutely holds credibility. He's an expert with a long history of academic publications, postitions, and has been cited by scholars across multiple fields. .

He only holds credibility on certain topics.

But, If you read his wiki link, you will see he is admittedly biased. I did read this before I posted.

Alan Millard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the importance he ascribes to this topic stems largely from his belief as an Evangelical Christian in the essential historicity of the Bible - a point of view he shares with his colleague at Liverpool, the Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen.

And look at his "shared" colleague Kitchen.

Kenneth Kitchen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

His publications in this area have consistently defended the historical books of the Old Testament as an accurate record of events, i.e., as history, against the academic consensus that they are primarily theological in nature.


No YEC is credible when it comes to historical content of biblical scripture.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
). Studies by Reed, Chancey, Freyne, Savage, Root, Choi, Aviam, and others have all thoroughly examined the lack of any archaeological support (and plenty of evidence against) the idea of a Hellenized Galilee in Jesus' day. As this hellenized Galilee is key to Millard's argument, the fact that it is now an outdated view unsupported by archaeological evidence (not to mention socio-economic approaches and the combination of both) means his argument has no support.

I think your adding a hair more then Reed or Chancey really states. I think this is a interpretation error.

They do not claim a absence of Hellenization, just low numbers of Hellenistic Gentiles.

They say nothing about Hellenistic Judaism, they only claim that Sepphoris was predominately Jewish. This does not say anything about the level of Hellenization in Judaism.

Not only that we know Antipas had placed his people in power for the government there, and Antipas was a Hellenist.

Not only that when the temple fell, Sepphoris did not join the fight against the Roman oppressors, nor was it destroyed, like all the other traditional Jewish places.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
No Pegg.

Most people in Israel were hard working peasants with no money for papyrus or writing tablets, and they had no reason to write anything.

I'm sure a few knew numbers and such, and even a few words. But that doesn't mean they could pick up and read a book or write anything at all.

The known literacy rate was roughly 3%-10% but this depended on exactly where one lived.

and yet they built the most elaborate temple for worship the world had ever seen....decorated in gold... yep, real desert dwellers :facepalm:
 

outhouse

Atheistically
and yet they built the most elaborate temple for worship the world had ever seen....decorated in gold... yep, real desert dwellers :facepalm:


A Hellenistic pagan, Herod had the temple built.

No one said they were desert dwellers. We are talking about a very illiterate culture no matter how you slice it.

Why do you think no one wrote about Jesus why he was alive?????????????????? Because they could not.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
A Hellenistic pagan, Herod had the temple built.

No one said they were desert dwellers. We are talking about a very illiterate culture no matter how you slice it.

Why do you think no one wrote about Jesus why he was alive?????????????????? Because they could not.

there was a temple prior to Herods time... the first temple was built when Solomon was king.

no one could read and write?... do you even hear what is being stated. Have you put any thought into this at all???? I dont think so.
 
I really do not care who wrote the Gospels. I see the Bible and all Christian literatures as largely allegorical, and derive inspiration from them in this manner. :)
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
He only holds credibility on certain topics.

But, If you read his wiki link, you will see he is admittedly biased. I did read this before I posted.
I have no doubt you did. But you have clearly misinterpreted it, because you have lept from "essential historicity" to

No YEC is credible when it comes to historical content of biblical scripture.

Where do you get Young Earth Creationism out of "essential history"? Sure, his views are not the mainstream views when it comes to how trustworthy the biblical texts are, but neither are they so out there that he hasn't been continually published in academic sources of all types on numerous topics for decades. Nor does he believe that the bible is inerrant. In his article praising the accuracy of biblical scribes ("In Praise of Scribes"), his conclusion contains the caveat "Everyone who writes and copies is aware of the likelihood of mistakes in their own work. Ancient scribes were equally prone to failure. The conventional "introductions" to the Old Testament and handbooks of textual criticism instruct their readers in the categories of scribal error that appear in ancient manuscripts and may be detected in the Old Testament. There is no doubt that errors were committed by copyists and have passed into the printed text."

The closest he has come to suggesting that the genesis account is correct is a comparison of flood stories and the possibility that if there was a flood, then it would probably be documented. Not that we have the evidence to say such a flood actually happened.

Everyone is biased (except me of course). Some more than others. But religion is hardly the only bias, and as biblical scholars go, Millard has not gone out proclaiming that the bible is inerrant (instead, he has gone on record saying it isn't), nor has he produced lots of articles, books, and other media for the general public like a good many "scholars" who really are YEC advocates, do believe the bible is the inerrant word of god, etc.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think your adding a hair more then Reed or Chancey really states. I think this is a interpretation error.

Yes, but as you haven't read either other than some selections, which is more likely: 1) having read both of Chancey's monographs and several of his papers, and various works by Reed, and having read how both authors and their works are described and referenced in hundreds of other works of scholarship, that I have misinterpreted what they think

or
2) That you, who mistook Chancey's introduction to one of his monographs as an article, have misinterpreted what they think?

Your main source for Reed has been an article written for the general public "Excavating Jesus". Here, Reed states "The excavations at Sepphoris and Tiberias have shown that in the earliest strata from the time of Antipas, all evidence points to an aniconic Jewish population, and a cautious Antipas who heeded the religious sensibilities of his Jewish subjects."

Your response?
Exactly, and the aniconic is a key phrase, is it not?

It is, but because Jewish faith prohibited "graven images" or "icons", while pagans all across the Roman empire used them. "aniconic" means "without icons" or "not Hellenistic but Jewish" as the Jews were the only people in the entire Roman empire who had that restriction against icons.

They do not claim a absence of Hellenization, just low numbers of Hellenistic Gentiles.

First, you spent post after post talking about Hellenistic Judaism, and when it came down to it, your source was wikipedia:
where we find "Hellenistic Judaism was a movement which existed in the Jewish diaspora that sought to establish a Hebraic-Jewish religious tradition within the European culture and language of Hellenism after the eastern conquests of Alexander the Great."
Now, how is Galilee the "Jewish Diaspora?

Second, aniconic is about as un-hellenistic as you can get. Again, from the vikings to the Romans to the Egyptians, everybody used iconography, with one exception: those who followed "traditional" Jewish practice and belief. In "Hellenized" Jewish regions, we find icons. We find lots of indications of hellenistic influence.

In Galilee, even in the cities all we have is a bit of architectural design which is Roman. Herod Antipas was even careful minting coins (which, FYI, Reed also states in your link).


They say nothing about Hellenistic Judaism

The only thing you've said about it is to link to a wiki article which defines it as something happening in regions like Alexandria or Rome or Persiak, not Galilee. Apart from a wiki link that clearly can't refer to Galilee, what sources do you have on this "Hellenistic Judaism"?

they only claim that Sepphoris was predominately Jewish. This does not say anything about the level of Hellenization in Judaism.

Not only that we know Antipas had placed his people in power for the government there, and Antipas was a Hellenist.

Not only that when the temple fell, Sepphoris did not join the fight against the Roman oppressors, nor was it destroyed, like all the other traditional Jewish places.
Wrong. Josephus (our source here), is quite explicity. Sepphoris (and the other cities) saved Galilee by letting in Caesennius Gallus who, seeing that the villages and cities were quite, only attacked a single mountain where "brigands/lestrikon" had gathered, and then "seeing no further signs of revolt in Galilee, returned with his troops to Caesara." It was Cestius who went to Jerusalem (where the temple was), and he never went to Galilee. The siege of Jerusalem was a seperate incursion led by a different general with a different army in a different place. In Galilee, apart from that one hill, the entire region was spared because there were no signs of revolt. In Jerusalem, where the temple was, there was a seige.

That's the extent of our knowledge of what Galilee's activities were in Josephus' account in Wars. In his Life, however, he tells a different story, in which he claims to have fortified all of these places, ready for war. Because get who was in charge of defending Galilee? The only source we have for what happened. In one version, he is the ready general preparing the entire region for battle. In the other, the region is spared thanks to Sepphoris and the lack of rebel activity.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Where do you get Young Earth Creationism out of "essential history"? .


His relationship with Kitchen who is a known creationist and a literalist.

I hope you haven't misused your time reading Kitchens book


I do understand Millards positive contribution to Cuneiform and interpretation.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I really do not care who wrote the Gospels. I see the Bible and all Christian literatures as largely allegorical, and derive inspiration from them in this manner. :)

Hi.....

I notice that your shown religion is 'Studying and Searching'. Correct?

But in this thread, on these matters, you will neither study, search nor care who wrote the Gospels? Well....... you wrote it. :shrug:
 
Hi.....

I notice that your shown religion is 'Studying and Searching'. Correct?

But in this thread, on these matters, you will neither study, search nor care who wrote the Gospels? Well....... you wrote it. :shrug:

I do not think it matters who wrote the Gospels, inasmuch as what is IN them. Even if they were written by several authors rather than one, or even inauthenticated, that simply should not stop one's personal faith in Jesus Christ.

Not only do we have those Scriptures outlined in the Bible, we also have the Gnostic Gospels and other Christian non-Biblical Scriptures. The only reason why such Writings were not added into the Bible was rather due to petty squabbles on doctrinal matters more than anything.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I do not think it matters who wrote the Gospels, inasmuch as what is IN them. Even if they were written by several authors rather than one, or even inauthenticated, that simply should not stop one's personal faith in Jesus Christ.

Not only do we have those Scriptures outlined in the Bible, we also have the Gnostic Gospels and other Christian non-Biblical Scriptures. The only reason why such Writings were not added into the Bible was rather due to petty squabbles on doctrinal matters more than anything.


I agree with much of this.

The surviving gospels are a fraction of what once was.

No matter what the real history is, it should not detract from the beauty or ones faith.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
and yet they built the most elaborate temple for worship the world had ever seen....decorated in gold... yep, real desert dwellers :facepalm:
It seems that you are equating "illiterate" with being unintelligent and incapable. Again I think you are working with a modern mindset. If you were to meet someone today who is illiterate you would find someone who is barely able to function in society and possibly (but not necessarily) has mental deficiencies. But that is not the case in the ancient world. A person may have been illiterate but still be intelligent, capable, and highly skilled. In the ancient world a person could be a skilled craftsman, a tax collector, a religious official, or a political leader without being able to read.

And no one is claiming that no one knew how to read, only that it was rare (3% maybe a little higher, maybe a little lower)
 

Shermana

Heretic
So why was Caius wrong when he attributed Revelation to Cerinthus? Why were the Alogi wrong when they attributed Gospel of "John" to Cerinthus? Why are such testimonies so invalid?
 
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