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The Gospel According to Anonymous.

Do we know who wrote the Gospels?


  • Total voters
    27

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
His relationship with Kitchen who is a known creationist and a literalist.

I quoted Millard stating the bible has errors.

I hope you haven't misused your time reading Kitchens book

He has several. I've read two, and a few of his papers. I find his arguments relating to historical reliability to be quite flawed, and I don't think he's contributed much at all to biblical scholarship, although some of his work in Egyptology seems to have been quite important (I've read almost none of it, but it is cited all over the place). As for wasting my time, every single book I buy published by HarperCollins or similar publishing companies by Ehrman, Craig, Crossan, or just about any scholar is a waste of time. And as for Kitchen's bizzare defense of biblical accuracy, I find it to be just as indefensible as Crossan's bizarre dating of the gospels, his imaginary "cross gospel", and his Greek Galilean philosopher. There are extremes at both ends, and everywhere in between. I could ignore Craig, Witherington III, Kitchen, etc., just like I could Mack, Crossan, Funk, Pagels, etc. But I prefer to get a feel for the entire spectrum.

If one simply reads the popular authors, one has a very jaded, limited, biased view of the literature. It's possible to get a much superior understanding without reading the entire spectrum, but I am obsessive like that. So I waste my time reading absolute garbage just to know what is out there.


I do understand Millards positive contribution to Cuneiform and interpretation.[/quote]
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I do not think it matters who wrote the Gospels, inasmuch as what is IN them. Even if they were written by several authors rather than one, or even inauthenticated, that simply should not stop one's personal faith in Jesus Christ.

Not only do we have those Scriptures outlined in the Bible, we also have the Gnostic Gospels and other Christian non-Biblical Scriptures. The only reason why such Writings were not added into the Bible was rather due to petty squabbles on doctrinal matters more than anything.

Hi again....

Fine..... so, no need to search....... of course anybody is free to decide what is 'in' or 'out' with regard to scriptures and faiths. Cool....! No search necessary for some...........

The choices of books to be included in the bible were the result of much more than petty squabbles, and I have heard that people who objected to decisions disappeared, or were murdered.

I am not an atheist, rather a Deist-mongrel, but my feelings for Jesus have risen and risen, mainly through study and search over recent months, so please don't think my posts have been an attack on your faith, rather they were just a question.....
 
Hi again....

Fine..... so, no need to search....... of course anybody is free to decide what is 'in' or 'out' with regard to scriptures and faiths. Cool....! No search necessary for some...........

The choices of books to be included in the bible were the result of much more than petty squabbles, and I have heard that people who objected to decisions disappeared, or were murdered.

I am not an atheist, rather a Deist-mongrel, but my feelings for Jesus have risen and risen, mainly through study and search over recent months, so please don't think my posts have been an attack on your faith, rather they were just a question.....

Oh, it's fine, hun! I am somewhat a sceptic, and an agnostic theist. I was born Catholic Christian, but I now follow Christ and Christianity in an open manner. ALL Scriptures that speak of Christ in an upbuilding and dignified manner to me, is my 'Bible' and holy book.

Theologically, I adhere to Classical Christian Unitarianism. Here is my personal creed:

"I believe in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things,
And in Jesus Christ, the one Lord of the Church,
whose teachings and life form the standard of my faith and practice,
And in the holy spirit, the influence of God within me;
I believe in the divine element in conscience,
In free will and the responsibility that comes with it,
In the inspiration and sanctity of Scripture,
In the forgiveness of sins,
In God's universal love for all humankind,
And in the future advancement of the whole human family to holiness and happiness.
"

I believe in freedom of conscience, and reason. I do think that they are gifts of God, and that Christ would have probably wanted us all to utilise the gift of intellect to discern truth and beauty. It says in the Book of Proverbs that Wisdom, the emanation of God, was from the very beginning, and she bestows herself upon them who are open to God's grace and love.

But of course, this is just my view, one view among many. :)
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I quoted Millard stating the bible has errors.



He has several. I've read two, and a few of his papers. I find his arguments relating to historical reliability to be quite flawed, and I don't think he's contributed much at all to biblical scholarship, although some of his work in Egyptology seems to have been quite important (I've read almost none of it, but it is cited all over the place). As for wasting my time, every single book I buy published by HarperCollins or similar publishing companies by Ehrman, Craig, Crossan, or just about any scholar is a waste of time. And as for Kitchen's bizzare defense of biblical accuracy, I find it to be just as indefensible as Crossan's bizarre dating of the gospels, his imaginary "cross gospel", and his Greek Galilean philosopher. There are extremes at both ends, and everywhere in between. I could ignore Craig, Witherington III, Kitchen, etc., just like I could Mack, Crossan, Funk, Pagels, etc. But I prefer to get a feel for the entire spectrum.

If one simply reads the popular authors, one has a very jaded, limited, biased view of the literature. It's possible to get a much superior understanding without reading the entire spectrum, but I am obsessive like that. So I waste my time reading absolute garbage just to know what is out there.


I do understand Millards positive contribution to Cuneiform and interpretation.


I do get and study material from a wide range of scholars. I don't follow all of Crossans work. Even Witherington has quite the knowledge, to bad his arrow is apologetically aimed.

Which gets us to Millard, he stands tight with Kitchen, and though he may claim the books have some errors, his arrow is still firmly apologetically aimed. Its sad too, because he has a wealth of knowledge but his mistakes are so serious, it effects his whole credibility in many fields.

The two biggest mistakes are the literacy rates, and then the worst, is claiming Mesopotamian's did not influence the OT. He is strict on this with Kitchen.


By the way, his errors he is talking about is not within what he claims is the original author. He only claims when they made copies there were scribal errors. He still falsely maintains that the bible is a history book.
 
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Avoice

Active Member
fantôme profane;3290057 said:
So how do you know that? I know who Matthew was suppose to be, but nowhere in the "gospel according to Matthew" does it say it was written by anyone named Matthew. That appellation was applied to the book much latter, and certainly not by the author. It is not just Bart Ehrman saying this, it is the consensus among the majority of historians.

Can you give me any reason for thinking Matthew had anything to do with writing the Gospel that now bears his name?

Do you think John could write? I think the Bible even describes him as illiterate. (Can't remember the passage off hand)

A note in all this: Jews were able to read and write Hebrew it was and is a requirement for Bar Mizfa (sp? with apologies to our Jewish members.)
 

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
there was a temple prior to Herods time... the first temple was built when Solomon was king.

no one could read and write?... do you even hear what is being stated. Have you put any thought into this at all???? I dont think so.

Hi Pegg, I just wanted to congratulate you for your posts on this thread. KB
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Hi Pegg, I just wanted to congratulate you for your posts on this thread. KB


Which is the beauty of getting to the real truth of history.

This is not a popularity contest where like minded apologetically thinking people win.

On these topics historians tell the story, Pegg did a good job of providing a scholar. I'm glad she did that much work. Unfortunately, on this topic he stands with little to no support from the vast majority of scholars who oppose his work.


As it stands the gospel authors are unknown at this time. It is almost certain though that the Galilean Jews who traveled with Jesus, had no part in writing a whole book known to us.

Gmark is a known compilation of material. If you or anyone would like to discuss which parts are the oldest and possible go back to a time possible that they could have been influenced. I'd be glad to help any way I could.

Gluke copied much of Gmark, a real apostle would not have to copy a Roman foundation we see.

Gmatthew also copies Gmark, again, a real apostle would not need to have done.

Gjohn was written in multiple parts by 3 or 3 groups of unknown authors by a Johannine community. What once was thought as not containing anything worth looking at historically, may have a few parts that go back quite a ways back as well.
 
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Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Which is the beauty of getting to the real truth of history.

This is not a popularity contest where like minded apologetically thinking people win.

On these topics historians tell the story, Pegg did a good job of providing a scholar. I'm glad she did that much work. Unfortunately, on this topic he stands with little to no support from the vast majority of scholars who oppose his work. Maybe he is like Galileo?

As it stands the gospel authors are unknown at this time. It is almost certain though that the Galilean Jews who traveled with Jesus, had no part in writing a whole book known to us. Maybe there weren't any Galilean Jews, and maybe "Jesus" was a figment of someone's vivid imagination?

Gmark is a known compilation of material. If you or anyone would like to discuss which parts are the oldest and possible go back to a time possible that they could have been influenced. I'd be glad to help any way I could.

Gluke copied much of Gmark, a real apostle would not have to copy a Roman foundation we see.

Gmatthew also copies Gmark, again, a real apostle would not need to have done.

Gjohn was written in multiple parts by 3 or 3 groups of unknown authors by a Johannine community. What once was thought as not containing anything worth looking at historically, may have a few parts that go back quite a ways back as well.

Hi outhouse, so what you really want to propose or what you want us to believe is that the Scriptures are so full of BS that only an idiot would even begin to acknowledge them as valid and that there is hardly any historical Truth in them? Is that what you want to help me realize? KB P.S. How's it going over at SIDB?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Hi outhouse, so what you really want to propose or what you want us to believe is that the Scriptures are so full of BS that only an idiot would even begin to acknowledge them as valid and that there is hardly any historical Truth in them?

Not at all. Why avoid the historical truth?

I love the beauty and history behind the scripture. But facts are facts. They were written decades after Jesus death by another culture that Jesus didn't really belong to. They were written from oral traditions in a, for the most part, illiterate culture who relied on oral tradition.

This does not detract from the value or beauty of scripture, its just understanding the real history. These books were not written to be read as literal history. They were songs, poems, metaphor and allegory, mythology and yes some real history.

What do you say about the contradictions? do you think this was god inspired and inerrant?




P.S. How's it going over at SIDB?

what is that?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Which gets us to Millard, he stands tight with Kitchen, and though he may claim the books have some errors, his arrow is still firmly apologetically aimed.
You've said as much:
Alan is a known admitted bible literalist, he doesn't hold any credibility among modern scholars.

Now, in addition to academic works published in reputable journals or by academic/specialty publishing companies (dozens of papers and studies since the 60s, including books translated into multiple languages), he's cited by "modern scholars".

If that weren't enough to show that "modern scholars" find him credible, we have the 2005 volume Writing and ancient Near Eastern society: papers in honour of Alan R. Millard.

If you go to google books, and put in the search term (quotes included) "studies in honor" or "papers in honor" or "Festschrift" (that's a link to the definition) or "Festschrift für", you'll find a numerous academic volumes filled with studies by scholars.

The studies in these volumes are not about the person the volumes are in honor of. Rather, they are written by people working in the field (or related fields) that the honoree specializes in and contain original research. It is a gesture of recognition, one which recognizes a scholar who has produced an extensive amount of valuable scholarship and other academic achievements. As Millard's was published in 2005, I'd say that means "modern scholars" would disagree with you.



I do get and study material from a wide range of scholars.

You don't, but this is not your fault nor is there much you can do about it. The way academia works involves a lot of societies, associations, etc. Some, like SBL, have almost 9,000 members (scholars). Some are limited to one university. But these are the groups that publish almost all the journals and other specialty literature. The rest are published by smallish specialty publishers (Mouton de Gruyter, John Benjamins, etc.) which produce only one kind of scholarly material (for the two examples I gave, it would be linguistics). Others, like Springer, are much larger and produce enormous amounts of academic literature, from journals to monographs to conference proceedings.

What they all have in common is first that they are hard to get access to. Through my university access, I can get papers from databases like JSTOR, Wiley or Sage online, Academic Search Premier, Project Muse, AAAS (they publish, among other things, the journal Science), etc, all for free because the university pays thousands of dollars each year for these subscriptions. Now, it is possible to get hard copies to, but unless you have easy access to a big university library, you are unlikely to find many very easily.

Then there's the books, volumes, monographs, etc. Not only can you only find them in either university libraries or from online bookstores like Amazon, they can be extremely expensive. I have two hobbies, studying and training (tactical/combatives training), and two type of luxury items I tend to spend money on: books and knives (I collect). Were I into gaming, or if I went out clubbing a lot, or any number of things people spend money apart from things like food, I wouldn't be able to study like I do because I couldn't afford it. And as journal articles can be upwards of $50, and I have thousands, were it not for the fact that the university is footing the bill I couldn't afford my studying hobby.

Now, how many of the thousands and thousands of scholars who are writing papers in various journals and volumes and so forth publish anything which is for the general public? A tiny amount.

Also, a lot of the research is written in German, French, and Italian, and expects readers to be familiar not only with at least the amount of research a grad student would have, but also frequently assumes knowledge of various ancient languages.

So although thankfully more and more studies from journals and conferences are available for free online, the fact that one can access them doesn't necessarily mean one can understand them.

Its sad too, because he has a wealth of knowledge but his mistakes are so serious, it effects his whole credibility in many fields.

And you say this based on your access to journals and series (monographs or volumes which are like journals in that they have volumes, but they either have many more papers than a journal or are monographs) like Zeitschrift fiir die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft, Journal of Semitic Studies, Ugarit-Forschungen, Revue de l"Histoire des Religions, etc.?

The two biggest mistakes are the literacy rates, and then the worst, is claiming Mesopotamian's did not influence the OT. He is strict on this with Kitchen.

About the second: have you read his studies on this? Granted, "Another Babylonian Chronicle Text." (Iraq 26) is a bit dated, "The etymology of Eden" (Vetus Testamentum 34) isn't, and as Eisenbrauns (an academic publishing company) decided that Lambert & Millard's Atra-ḫasīs: The Babylonian Story of the Flood, published by Oxford University Press in 1969, was worth reprinting in 1999, then that's important for evaluating his argument too.

As for the first, that's not a big mistake. It's a pretty common view today. In Theißen & Merz's Der historische Jesus: Ein Lehrbuch the authors write "Ob Jesus zum Lesen- und Schreibenlernen eine Elementarschule besucht hat, muß offenbleiben. Zwar entstand unter hellenistischem Einfluß in Palästina ein leistungsfähiges Schulwesen, dessen Aufbau die Rabbinen zum Abschluß brachten."
("Whether Jesus went to an elementary school to learn read and write must remain open. Certainly, under the Hellenistic influence in Palistine, an efficient school system originated, a development which the Rabbis finalized."). Likewise, we find in Reisner's Jesus as Preacher and Teacher (in Jesus and the Oral Gospel Tradition) that "synagogues provided even in small Galilaean villages such as Nazareth a kind of popular education system". In fact, it was Reisner who was most influential here in his monograph Jesus als Lehrer: eine Untersuchung zum Ursprung der Evangelien-Überlieferung.

Freyne (Jesus: A Jewish Galilean) is a problem for you here in two ways, as he says "we have no way of knowing the social status of Jesus' family", because (as far as Freyne is concerned), the fact that his father was called a tekton doesn't indicate the kind of poverty and low-class you have argued. Secondly, he writes this to contradict the argument made by Hezser, whose book on the subject concluded that (among other things) a "Galilean craftsman would not have the necessary levels of education in order to read". Freyne argues that equating "craftsman" with "peasant" not consistent with the evidence. And, even if it were, Freyne argues that the affinity between John the Baptist and Jesus and between both of them and the Essenes indicates that they studied.

Levine, in The Ancient Synagogue: The First Thousand Years (2nd ed.) argues that the lack of actual structures for pre-70 CE synagogue schools, "there is reason to believe that synagogue premises served in such a capacity in many, if not most, places in this era." As far as Jesus' activities in the synagogue in Luke, "a number of details are noteworthy", such as the "stages of the synagogue liturgy" Luke notes: "Jesus stood up to read from the Prophets, was handed the book of Isaiah, read several verses, returned the book to the synagogue official, sat down, and proceeded to address the congregation".

Finally, Levine not only cites Josephus' claims of "widespread literacy" (no doubt exaggerated), but also that the well attested, systematic, educational system we find in the later post-70 Jewish synagogue setting "was probably not created overnight", and thus it is by no means impossible for a limited schooling in reading (and perhaps writing) to have existed before the later rabbinic school system was completed.

FInally, the more "hellenized" places like Sepphoris were, the more llkely it is that the spread of educational centers into the household synagogues of small villages happened.

By the way, his errors he is talking about is not within what he claims is the original author. He only claims when they made copies there were scribal errors. He still falsely maintains that the bible is a history book.

What have you read by him? What convinced you that he is the only YEC advocate & bible inerrantist to argue that the bible we have has at least a fair amount of errors. It makes no difference if it was accurate history from a religious standpoint if that history is clouded by scribal errors, nor have I ever encountered anyone who believed that the bible was the inerrant, literal world of god and that the world was created a few thousand years ago and yet recognized how scribal errors have distorted the bible.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Excellent reply, and informative.

But you missed this part [against the academic consensus ] If wiki is wrong, your one person who could change it.

Kenneth Kitchen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

His publications in this area have consistently defended the historical books of the Old Testament as an accurate record of events, i.e., as history, against the academic consensus that they are primarily theological in nature.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Remember these two fella's are severe biblical maximalist, which as you know has been on its way out for quite a while.

Thats my gripe with these two
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Excellent reply, and informative.

But you missed this part [against the academic consensus ] If wiki is wrong, your one person who could change it.

Kenneth Kitchen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

His publications in this area have consistently defended the historical books of the Old Testament as an accurate record of events, i.e., as history, against the academic consensus that they are primarily theological in nature.

I didn't miss that part. Let me try to be brief (something I am almost utterly incapable of) and clear about a few central points:

1) I don't agree with Millard on many things, both academic and religious (I'm agnostic, not a believer).
2) One of those things is his argument about literacy, but mainly because view of hellenistic influence is outdated. I also think that while it is possible Jesus and/or some of his followers were capable of reading and even a little writing, it doesn't matter. Jesus was an oral "performer" (teacher/preacher/prophert/etc. all were roles Jesus' filled through oral/aural transmission & performance).
3) Kitchen is an Egyptologist. Like Millard, he's done some extremely important work. Like Millard, when he get's into biblical accuracy, I find the arguments very dubious, highly speculative, and their conclusions to be mostly wrong.

4) Their are many, many, many scholars in biblical studies and related fields who would agree with Millard and Kitchen. Almost without exception (I've never found and exception), they are a certain type of evangelical scholar.

5) Almost without Exception, they are not YEC advocates or biblical literalists. They are conservative Christian scholars who are on one side of a continuum running from the actual YEC biblical literalists to mythicists.

6) There is an easy (albeit simplified) method to determine that this distinction exists. Millard, Kitchen, and other like them (e.g., C. John Collins, who had Millard as a doctoral dissertation advisor) are talked about on evangelical sites (like they are on atheist sites, only in the opposite way).

One such site is BioLogos, a site run by a team of people ranging from PhDs in physics and biology to christian pastors and scholars. They have a page (on their "About Us" link) detailing their beliefs: What We Believe. One statement they make is "We believe that God created the universe, the earth, and all life over billions of years".


CONCLUSION:

One should not reject the views of any scholar purely based on their beliefs, even if they are YEC advocates (and Millard, Kitchen, etc., are not, although they are probably some kind of ID proponents). I don't imagine many YEC advocates produce much useful scholarship in any fields, and that includes biblical studies, but hypothetically speaking.

However, take J. P. Meier's comprehensive historical Jesus four-volume set: A Marginal Jew. Meier is a Catholic priest. However, is volumes do not reflect his personal views. Instead, as he puts it, they attempt to reflect what the conclusion of what Christian, Jewish, and non-believers who were biblical/NT scholars would agree on if they were all locked in a room and had to reach an agreement. He does very well.

Millard, Kitchen, and others, are not like this. But that doesn't taint all their work or even make their controversial scholarship worthless (their books published for mainstream audiences are often worthless).

For example, N.T. wright wrote a 3-volume set on the historical Jesus, which for the most part is uncontroversial (i.e., it is not like W. L. Craig's "historical" work or Robert Eisenman's "scholarship" on the Qumran finds). However, in the last volume he goes from making the argument that we have no good historical explanation to explain why Jesus' followers thought Jesus was the resurrected son of god to the conclusion that therefore Jesus did in fact rise from the dead.

That's not history. History is about what most likely happened given the evidence. So even if Wright's argument were correct, and every historical explanation for the origins of christianity fails, one cannot then conclude that the correct explanation involves a miracle. However improbable a historical explanation about the origins of Christianity may be, it is at most as improbable as a miracle, because a miracle is by definition so improbable that it can't be explained by science.

However, all three volumes contain extremely valuable information and a great deal of at least decent scholarship.

Everyone has biases, and believing Christian scholars have biases that have nothing to do with their faith. The mythicist movement is a testament to the power of ideology regardless of relgious belief. Most mythicists reach their conclusion after reading a few websites and if challenged will actually refuse to research the subject apart from viewing more websites and perhaps a book by Doherty.

In our discussion at various times, I have searched through your posts trying to find a point you made or an argument that was important or I wanted to refute in some way but couldn't remember when or where. A while ago, in the process of searching I came across posts like this:
jesus was a myth

You not only did the research, but changed your view (something that is hard for most, myself included). And when I first started posting here, you accused me of be a theologically motivated creationist:

Spoken like a true creationist

Once again, you changed your view. This is something that I respect, and it is why even though I often disagree with you I don't disregard your posts (although, as I usually visit the forums after midnight and after drinking, often my responses are harsher than called for).

The scholarship you are saying can be disregarded completely are written by people who have devoted their lives to studying the topics these works concern. Unlike you, many of them have continued to see the evidence as supporting a view they had to begin with, resullting in extreme positions. Instead of changing their views based on evidence, they try to turn the evidence into their views.

This doesn't make such works worthless. Even wrong arguments can have good points or make one see things in another light they otherwise wouldn't have, and even scholarship with incorrect conclusions can contain a great deal of accurate information.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
I understand their work isnt worthless, in specific places. I have already stated that.

Its sad, one has to know what one is doing before even looking at work from either one of these two who will take liberties, due to bias.

Thus, it feeds uneducated Christian's with false inofrmation, as in this case with literacy in the Levant. That and the Maximalist misingormation both promote.

YEC was possibly over the top, but I do see Kitchen quoted at "Answers in Genesis"
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Kitchen, Kenneth A. and J.D. Douglas, eds. (1982), The New Bible Dictionary (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale), second edition.

I believe here Kitchen promotes YEC
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I understand their work isnt worthless, in specific places. I have already stated that.

I know, but I'm not sure how you are determining what is or isn't worthless. It seems as if you believe that when Kitchen or Millard write about biblical accuracy, rather than egyptology or some other topic, then we needn't bother reading whatever it is they write.

For example, Kitchen's On the Reliability of the Old Testament. Here's a book by Kitchen on historical accuracy in the bible, and it is clearly extreme. You may have noticed that Kitchen's wiki page you've linked to contains external links to two reviews of the book. One is even labled "more critical". Nor are these the only reviews in the literature, so we can ignore the "less critical" one and see what other reviews (as well as the linked to "more critical" review) have to say.

First, a note on reviews. Unlike those in magazines or newspapers, the reviews I'm talking about generally appear as a section in every issue of any given journal in some field. They're there so that people in the field can get a look at what recent scholarship has been published that they may not know about. Also, as the reviewers are specialists, these reviews give people in the field an idea about quality of the work gives an idea about the state of the field

Also, as these reviews are usually in sections dedicated for such reviews, they have a certain fairly standard (although not fixed) form: intro, description, commentary, conclusion. They will also often use less abusive or insulting language when being critical. A personal favorite is when insanely illogical arguments are described as "imaginative" and "interesting" before torn to shreds.

Lemaire's review of Kitchen's book, published in the Journal of Near Eastern Studies, begins: "Écrit avec conviction et verve, dans un style vif et alerte, ne reculant pas devant de nombreux jeux de mots, ce gros volume est la synthèse d’un spécialiste du Proche-Orient ancien qui a consacré sa vie à l’étude des textes anciens, spécialement ceux de l’Égypte."
("written with verve and conviction, in a style both intense and lively, nor withdrawing from any chance at wordplay, this comprehensive volume is the synthesis of a specialist in Near Eastern studies who has devoted his life to the study of ancient texts, especially Egypt."

This is pretty typical, in that we get some praise for the scholar and a description of the work which manages to compliment it without actually really saying anything about its content. Lemaire then goes on to describe the themes and purposes of the book, as well as its conclusions, and then gets to the heart of the review.

He is not alone noting that Kitchen's tone is polemical, beginning his actual "review" part of the review with "Mis à part le ton polémique de certains passages..." ("Apart from the polemical tone of certain passages...").

And a great deal of his take on the book is captured in how his criticism begins: "Est-ce à dire que les conclusions présentées dans ce livre sont toutes convaincantes? Probablement pas: l’auteur souligne lui-même souvent que l’interprétation proposée de tel ou tel texte est possible...ou simplement vraisemblable ou probable. Ces nuances sont importantes."
("Is this to say that the conclusions presented in this book are all convincing? Probably not: the author himself frequently notes that any interpretation of this or that ext is a possible proposal...or simply likely or probable. Such nuances are important.")

Lemaire goes into greater detail about particular places in which the methods used or the conclusions reaches (or the methods used to make the evidence conform to the conclusion) is often speculative and sometimes highly suspicious.

However, if we look at his conclusion, we get a two-for-one, as he quotes W. W. Hallo's review from the cover page: "Even those unwilling to follow him all the way down to the earliest strata will be able to use his lucid expositions and generous documentation to arrive at a balanced view of their own on some of the most burning issues of current biblical scholarship".

Chavalas' review in Hebrew Studies is not nearly as friendly, as it opens by noting the polemical tone in Kitchen's work: "Kenneth Kitchen appears to fancy himself in this work as a heroic scholarly warrior. He "attacks" the minimalists whom he sees as having done much to undermine the interpretation of the Old Testament as having historical value. He does this by his ad hominem advances, which are legion in this work. For Kitchen, historical reliability is defined as that which is authentic and has significant historical content and value. He is a well-known scholar who has been a prolific writer in both Egyptology and in biblical studies." After noting the relationship Kitchen's book has with a similar one on the NT by F. F. Bruce, Chavalas continues:
"As stated, one will be immediately aware of the polemic nature of Kitchen's work, as he uses a barrage of adjectives to describe the minimalists and their positions (lunacy, immense ignorance, agenda-driven drivel, factually disadvantaged, dumb-cluck socio-anthropologists, ignoranti, and fantasizing sociologists). He is utterly unsympathetic to what he calls "sloppy thinking" and to those whom he believes base their theories on unproved assumptions."

However, that is the main critique. Chavalas spends almost no time pointing out problems with the conclusions, apart from comments interspersed in his description of the work. He concludes: "This work will no doubt fuel many a discussion (and many arguments) about the historical nature of the biblical narratives. In part, it is a summation of Kitchen's work over the past few generations, and whether one agrees with his polemics or not, all can gratefully acknowledge his erudite research. However, his insulting tone will not encourage scholars to be dispassionate about evaluating his arguments. I am disappointed that such an honored and reputable scholar has resorted to such language."

You can read for yourself from the wiki link the review by Isbell, so I need quote only from the conclusion:

"Despite the criticisms I have made here, I do not think Kitchen’s work is either poor, wrong in many cases, or unnecessary. He is a better Egyptologist than biblical scholar, and he is actually cute sometimes, if one can avoid the stinger that always lurks inside his attempts at humor...The value of Kitchen’s work is his dogged insistence upon a reading of relevant texts and an assessment of relevant archaeological recoveries as the appropriate context in which to read OT narratives. And it is precisely here that minimalists must be challenged to respond. They have called for dependence upon extra-biblical evidence, and Kitchen marshals an impressive amount of just such evidence for their assessment. Should his minimalist opponents fail to answer the specific evidence Kitchen has brought forward, we shall be forced to conclude that they cannot."

Other reviews are more positive. I'll ignore any from theological journals, and as you can read for yourself the other review the wiki page links to, I'll end with A. J. Levine's in CHOICE: Current Reviews For Academic Libraries. She describes Kitchen's conclusion as a "positivistic but nevertheless often plausible case for the Bible's historical credibility". And (as her review and the journal it is in is designed to help universities choose what works of scholarship to order for libraries, research, etc.), her conclusion is straightforward (emphasis in original):
"Often tantalizing, occasionally tedious and sardonic, this work should be read by everyone interested in the history and historiography of Israel. Summing Up: Highly recommended."

Thus, it feeds uneducated Christian's with false inofrmation, as in this case with literacy in the Levant. That and the Maximalist misingormation both promote.
I've restricted my selection of reviews to those which are either primarily hostile and to one intended to help universities decide what constitutes scholarship worth paying for. Every single one at the very least notes the massive amount of material, expertise, and analytical depth. As far as the "maximalist misinformation" is concerned, read the whole "more critical" review linked to in the wiki page, and note above what the author says about the implications for minimalists.

YEC was possibly over the top, but I do see Kitchen quoted at "Answers in Genesis"
I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to seperate the way any scholar in any field is used by non-specialists from their actual work. Often, scholars are quite suprised to find that they are being quoted by creationists, ID proponents, etc, whether they are physicists, biologists, or biblical scholars. In this case, it is certainly true that Kitchen over-reaches and his conclusions are again on one end of the extreme continuum. But a work like his book reviewed above is still valuable, as expert reviewers in various journals note.

As for the "damage done", Ehrman has done far more with just one of his many books than Kitchen with perhaps everything he's written combined. Jesus, Interrupted, God's Problem, etc., are easier to read, far more popular, and although they are a different kind of work than On the Reliability of the Old Testament, one difference is integrity. At least Kitchen is producing work which he really believes.

Ehrman, however, has lines in e.g, Misquoting Jesus where he's copied his actual scholarship but left out the context to deliberately make the claim sound astounding when really it isn't.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Resources | Christians in Science

Is a web site, where both are founders. While creationist, they seem to "now" be promoting ID and some links were theistic evolution.

They did provide links to a YEC "slant" which I wasnt keen on.
In another thread here, a number of arguments which were intended to be "proofs" that god exists came (indirectly) from the work of various physicists. In some cases, I doubt these physicists actually realize that their work is being misinterpreted and used in this way, or even that it could be. In other cases, they know are probably either amused or annnoyed.

As I've pointed out to many a mythicist who quotes Ehrman and informs me that he's THE expert on the historical Jesus, Ehrman is not a mythicist. In the late 90s, he came out with two books which were published by Oxford University Press and one was Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium. However, as he only started getting well-known after The Da Vinci Code came out and was followed by a huge increase in popular interest about the truth of the bible, the "banned" books", Mary Magdalene, etc., people know him after he apparently decided it was far more profitable to sacrfice integrity and go for sensationalism as well as follow trends (his first reaction to Dan Brown's book was a critical look at it's inaccuracies, but apparently that wasn't enough and so he came out with another book on featuring Mary Magdalene and the "truth" about Peter and Paul).

I regained some respect for Ehrman when it seems the disconnect between what his fans thought and what he did was too great, so he wrote Did Jesus Exist? And he got some scathing reviews from his fans on forums, on blogs, etc. They'd been relying on him to support mythicism for years and he came out with a sensationalist book against the idea that mythicism has any credibility.

Here again, though, we have someone who's work was used by people to make arguments that he'd never agree with.

Also, about ID and similar views. I may be biased, as I'm agnostic not athiest, and I do I find the vast majority of the websites, books, video clips, etc., "proving" that evolution is flawed or that God exists or whatever to be garbage. I also have yet to find any YEC proponent who has written any argument I can respect at all. On the other hand, a lot of agnostic scientists are writing books (both popular and academic) advocating that the core of the scientific program (reductionism) is flawed, that consciousness cannot be explained by current physics or even perhaps by any physics, that causation (another backbone of science) is either inaccurate/flawed or that our standard theories in physics are incompatible with it, and so on.

As Shakespeare's Hamlet said:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

I try to keep that in mind whenever I become too dismissive or don't question my own views enough. I may fail often, but I try.
 
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