The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

[InvestigateTruth]

Dear FearGod,

I am still waiting for the Arabic version of the Last Sermon of the Prophet. Specifically the part you had quoted above. If you or any of dear Musilm friends can post it, I really appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[FearGod]

Dear FearGod,

I am still waiting for the Arabic version of the Last Sermon of the Prophet. Specifically the part you had quoted above. If you or any of dear Musilm friends can post it, I really appreciate it. Thanks.

Dear InvestigateTruth,

Will that make any difference if in Arabic .

Part of the sermon in arabic

وفي اليوم الثامن من ذي الحجة نزل بطن الوادي من منى فخطب في ذلكم الجمع الغفير: ((أيها الناس، اسمعوا قولي فإني لا أدري لعلي لا ألقاكم بعد عامي هذا بهذا الموقف أبدًا.. إن دماءكم وأموالكم حرام عليكم، كحرمة يومكم هذا، في شهركم هذا، في بلدكم هذا، ألا كل شيء من أمر الجاهلية تحت قدمي موضوع، ودماء الجاهلية موضوعة، وإن أول دم أضع من دمائنا دم ابن ربيعة بن الحارث، وربا الجاهلية موضوع، وأول ربا أضع من ربانا ربا العباس بن عبد المطلب، فإنه موضوع كله.
فاتقوا الله في النساء فإنكم أخذتموهن بأمانة الله، واستحللتم فروجهن بكلمة الله، ولكم عليهن ألا يوطئن فرشكم أحدًا تكرهونه، فإن فعلن ذلك، فاضربوهن ضربًا غير مبرح، ولهن عليكم رزقهن وكسوتهن بالمعروف، وقد تركت فيكم ما لن تضلوا بعده إن اعتصمتم به كتاب الله.
أيها الناس، إنه لا نبي بعدي، ولا أمة بعدكم، ألا فاعبدوا ربكم وصلوا خمسكم، وصوموا شهركم، وأدوا زكاة أموالكم، طيبة بها أنفسكم، وتحجون بيت ربكم، وأطيعوا ولاة أمركم، تدخلوا جنة ربك&#1605) أخرجه ابن ماجه
Reference : http://www.islamdoor.com/K3/wadah.htm

O People! No Prophet or apostle will come after me ((is underlined in blue in arabic language))

For more information about the last sermon please click here

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Dear FearGod,

Thank you for finding this for me. I was not able to find this myself. It seems to me there are different versions of this sermon. The one you are quoting, does not say "No Prophet or Messenger after Me". It says No Prophet (Nabi) after Me. Also, the version you are providing does not say: "I am leaving you with the Book of God and my SUNNAH, if you follow them you will never go astray"


Moreover, your version does not say "No new Faith be Born", but it says, No Ummah after you. However, the Quran says, Muslims are a Middle Ummah, and God can change them.

Also,
The majority of the Arabic version I found does not have anything in it that says: "O People, NO PROPHET WILL COME AFTER ME AND "

Here they are:

"أيّها الناس إنما المؤمنون إخوة، ولا يَحِلُّ لامرىء مال أخيه إلا عن طيب نفس منه، ألا هل بلّغت؟ اللهمّ اشهد، فلا تَرْجِعُنَّ بعدي كُفَّاراً يضرب بعضكم رقابَ بعضٍ، فإني قد تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لم تضِلوا بعده: كتاب الله، ألا هل بلغت؟ اللهمّ اشهد."

http://majdah.maktoob.com/vb/majdah224704/


tripoli nights: The Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) Last Sermon

http://www.shiaweb.org/books/al-sayf_wa_al-siasa/pa3.html

 

[FearGod]

Dear FearGod,

Thank you for finding this for me. I was not able to find this myself. It seems to me there are different versions of this sermon. The one you are quoting, does not say "No Prophet or Messenger after Me". It says No Prophet (Nabi) after Me. Also, the version you are providing does not say: "I am leaving you with the Book of God and my SUNNAH, if you follow them you will never go astray"


Moreover, your version does not say "No new Faith be Born", but it says, No Ummah after you. However, the Quran says, Muslims are a Middle Ummah, and God can change them.

Also,
The majority of the Arabic version I found does not have anything in it that says: "O People, NO PROPHET WILL COME AFTER ME AND "

Here they are:

"أيّها الناس إنما المؤمنون إخوة، ولا يَحِلُّ لامرىء مال أخيه إلا عن طيب نفس منه، ألا هل بلّغت؟ اللهمّ اشهد، فلا تَرْجِعُنَّ بعدي كُفَّاراً يضرب بعضكم رقابَ بعضٍ، فإني قد تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لم تضِلوا بعده: كتاب الله، ألا هل بلغت؟ اللهمّ اشهد."

http://majdah.maktoob.com/vb/majdah224704/


tripoli nights: The Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) Last Sermon

http://www.shiaweb.org/books/al-sayf_wa_al-siasa/pa3.html

Dear InvestigrateTruth,

You asked were it was mentioned that "there is no prophet after me" in Arabic,then you are saying now "he said prophet but not messenger",then your nation won't change but not your faith,but in reality our faith didn't change and as well as our nation,so you may be right if the faith was changed to another faith,but that didn't happen and will never happen insha'allah.

Then you said he didn't mention the book of god,then how you did understand this وقد تركت فيكم ما لن تضلوا بعده إن اعتصمتم به كتاب الله

Now may i ask you this question.

Whom do you think was the promised messiah, Bahaullah or Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ?

Bahaullah claimed to be the promised messiah
Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad also claimed to be the promised messiah

So what do you think ?
Where is the truth ?

of course you'll say Bahaullah is the promised one,anyway that is off topic.

i opened a new thread,hope you'll share your ideas.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ssiah-bahaullah-mirza-ghulam.html#post3117620

 

[loverOfTruth]

Dear FearGod,

Thank you for finding this for me. I was not able to find this myself. It seems to me there are different versions of this sermon. The one you are quoting, does not say "No Prophet or Messenger after Me". It says No Prophet (Nabi) after Me. Also, the version you are providing does not say: "I am leaving you with the Book of God and my SUNNAH, if you follow them you will never go astray"


Moreover, your version does not say "No new Faith be Born", but it says, No Ummah after you. However, the Quran says, Muslims are a Middle Ummah, and God can change them.

Also,
The majority of the Arabic version I found does not have anything in it that says: "O People, NO PROPHET WILL COME AFTER ME AND "

Here they are:

"أيّها الناس إنما المؤمنون إخوة، ولا يَحِلُّ لامرىء مال أخيه إلا عن طيب نفس منه، ألا هل بلّغت؟ اللهمّ اشهد، فلا تَرْجِعُنَّ بعدي كُفَّاراً يضرب بعضكم رقابَ بعضٍ، فإني قد تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لم تضِلوا بعده: كتاب الله، ألا هل بلغت؟ اللهمّ اشهد."

http://majdah.maktoob.com/vb/majdah224704/


tripoli nights: The Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) Last Sermon

http://www.shiaweb.org/books/al-sayf_wa_al-siasa/pa3.html

How conveniently you ignore the Sahih Hadiths that states that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) had physical Seal of Prophethood between his two Shoulders.

And not to mention the following saying of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) :

My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets.
(Bukhari, Muslim,Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Tirmizi, Babu Khatimin-Nabiyyin, Musnad Abu Dawud Tayalisi)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How conveniently you ignore the Sahih Hadiths that states that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) had physical Seal of Prophethood between his two Shoulders.

And not to mention the following saying of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) :

My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets.
(Bukhari, Muslim,Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Tirmizi, Babu Khatimin-Nabiyyin, Musnad Abu Dawud Tayalisi)

Dear LoverOf Truth,

I have not ignored anything.
I had already responded to all of these including the Hadith. If you just look at my posts and links I have placed to my other thread.
I have shown, this is related to the Adamic Cycle, as the First Creation of Human Civilization.
If God created a building, can He not continue building a City, by sending His Manifestations of God? God is creative, and His creativity does not end. There is no limit on Him. Please ponder on this.
I have supported this, with Quranic verses, should you wish to refer to my links and previous posts. If you read those, and should you wish to continue this discussion, please make a respond to those posts.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Dear LoverOf Truth,

I have not ignored anything.
I had already responded to all of these including the Hadith. If you just look at my posts and links I have placed to my other thread.
I have shown, this is related to the Adamic Cycle, as the First Creation of Human Civilization.
If God created a building, can He not continue building a City, by sending His Manifestations of God? God is creative, and His creativity does not end. There is no limit on Him. Please ponder on this.
I have supported this, with Quranic verses, should you wish to refer to my links and previous posts. If you read those, and should you wish to continue this discussion, please make a respond to those posts.

On another thread ? That's your response ?
And which part of the 'the last in the line of the Prophets' don't you get ?

Your explanation sounds like :
2 + 2 = 5 (for extremely large values of 2)

 

[Lady B]

Dear LoverOf Truth,

I have not ignored anything.
I had already responded to all of these including the Hadith. If you just look at my posts and links I have placed to my other thread.
I have shown, this is related to the Adamic Cycle, as the First Creation of Human Civilization.
If God created a building, can He not continue building a City, by sending His Manifestations of God? God is creative, and His creativity does not end. There is no limit on Him. Please ponder on this.
I have supported this, with Quranic verses, should you wish to refer to my links and previous posts. If you read those, and should you wish to continue this discussion, please make a respond to those posts.

I would like to kindly encourage you to stop constantly pointing us to other threads and posts when answering our questions. It is so unnerving at best.seemingly rude at the least. Just because you may have previously made a similar point to another question, does not mean we were answered to our satisfaction. If you feel you answered us properly in another post then by all means go and get the post, copy and paste it here, any harm in that?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

On another thread ? That's your response ?
And which part of the 'the last in the line of the Prophets' don't you get ?

Your explanation sounds like :
2 + 2 = 5 (for extremely large values of 2)

Dear loverofTruth,

Jesus said "I am the First and the Last"
He also said: "I am the Way, No One comes to Father except through Me"
How did you believe in Muhammad then? Then why Muhammad came after Him?
Use your own logic. 2+2=4. I hope you get it.

I had already repudiated many many times, that Islam is not the final revelation, in many different threads. Refer to those. Please also note the subject of thread. The Rules of Forum, does not allow going too off topic.

Peace

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I would like to kindly encourage you to stop constantly pointing us to other threads and posts when answering our questions. It is so unnerving at best.seemingly rude at the least. Just because you may have previously made a similar point to another question, does not mean we were answered to our satisfaction. If you feel you answered us properly in another post then by all means go and get the post, copy and paste it here, any harm in that?

Bible says:

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to Yahweh. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days Yahweh made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested'"(Exodus 31:15-17)."

Why don''t you follow the Bible and Put to Death anyone who does not keep the Sabath? Why didn't you keep the Rule for Ever as God said?


As you asked me, Please don't interprete for me. It is very clear what it says!

Peace!

 

[Lady B]

Bible says:

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to Yahweh. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days Yahweh made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested'"(Exodus 31:15-17)."

Why don''t you follow the Bible and Put to Death anyone who does not keep the Sabath? Why didn't you keep the Rule for Ever as God said?


As you asked me, Please don't interprete for me. It is very clear what it says!

Peace!

Now whos getting heated? How is this a response to what I asked you? You need a hug? :hug:

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Now whos getting heated? How is this a response to what I asked you? You need a hug? :hug:

Hey, Sorry, It wasn't really about heating.

I am just giving the kinda arguments that you and LoverOf truth were giving. Anyhow, thanks for hug.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Dear loverofTruth,

Jesus said "I am the First and the Last"
He also said: "I am the Way, No One comes to Father except through Me"
How did you believe in Muhammad then? Then why Muhammad came after Him?
Use your own logic. 2+2=4. I hope you get it.

I had already repudiated many many times, that Islam is not the final revelation, in many different threads. Refer to those. Please also note the subject of thread. The Rules of Forum, does not allow going too off topic.

Peace

But even Christians don't believe that every statement in the Bible is verbatim word of God. And Qur'an is the verbatim word of God which has been preserved till this day. So there's no guarantee that what is stated in the Bible regarding that is really what God stated - so that doesn't take away anything from the fact that God states in the Holy Qur'an that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is the last Prophet.

But I'll still respond to what you stated about Revelation 22:13: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. If you are trying to use it to say that He is the last Prophet - it wouldn't have any value because Christians don't claim He was a prophet at all and certainly He wasn't the first Prophet - so the last doesn't make sense either.

And the next one about no ones comes to father except through me makes perfect sense. Every prophet would say that to their followers - like there is no Islam without Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) - we only know God through him. So nothing special about that either.

So yes, my logic stays crystal clear as 2+2 = 4 unlike yours.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But even Christians don't believe that every statement in the Bible is verbatim word of God.

When did the Bible get corrupted?

And Qur'an is the verbatim word of God which has been preserved till this day.

Yes, but there is no verse in Quran that says Islam is the Final revelation. Or there will never come another Messenger from God.

So there's no guarantee that what is stated in the Bible regarding that is really what God stated

Then how come Quran asked the People living in the time of Muhammad to refer to Injil and Torah?

- so that doesn't take away anything from the fact that God states in the Holy Qur'an that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is the last Prophet.

There is no verse in Quran that says Muhammad is the Last Prophet.
It says seal of Prophets. Seal can mean Ornament.
There are many verses in Quran that talks about future revelations and Messengers.

There are hadithes, which deals with the subject of imidiate prophets after Muhammad. Such as:


The Prophet said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place.

There will be no prophet after me

, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship." (Sahih Bukhari 4:661; Narrated Abu Huraira)​

This does not mean, no more revelations from God. It means, within the period of Islam which is 1000 yeas (according to Quran and hadith), there will be only khalifs. Indeed this is what Happend.​

However, Messengers continue to come:​

"O children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief." quran 7:35
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/7/35/default.htm​

"And if all the trees on Earth were pens, and the ocean, with seven oceans added to it, were ink, the words of God would not be exhausted: for God is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom."
Holy Qur’an, Sura Luqman Ayah 27

But I'll still respond to what you stated about Revelation 22:13: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. If you are trying to use it to say that He is the last Prophet - it wouldn't have any value because Christians don't claim He was a prophet at all and certainly He wasn't the first Prophet - so the last doesn't make sense either.

You are contradicting yourself.
Fristly, you believe Jesus is a Prophet. Then you are saying Christians say Jesus is God.
You cannot have it both. According to Quran, Jesus was a Prophet and Injil is from God. Thus, Jesus as a Prophet said "I am the First I am the Last"​

And the next one about no ones comes to father except through me makes perfect sense. Every prophet would say that to their followers - like there is no Islam without Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) - we only know God through him. So nothing special about that either.

But Christians do not agree with your interpretation. See above. You cannot use your own interpretation anytime you like, then switch to Christian interpretation to make your point. You need to make a consistant interpretaion with Quran.​

So yes, my logic stays crystal clear as 2+2 = 4 unlike yours

Not really. Try again.​

 

[loverOfTruth]

When did the Bible get corrupted?


Yes, but there is no verse in Quran that says Islam is the Final revelation. Or there will never come another Messenger from God.


Then how come Quran asked the People living in the time of Muhammad to refer to Injil and Torah?


There is no verse in Quran that says Muhammad is the Last Prophet.
It says seal of Prophets. Seal can mean Ornament.
There are many verses in Quran that talks about future revelations and Messengers.

There are hadithes, which deals with the subject of imidiate prophets after Muhammad. Such as:


The Prophet said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place.

There will be no prophet after me

, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship." (Sahih Bukhari 4:661; Narrated Abu Huraira)​

This does not mean, no more revelations from God. It means, within the period of Islam which is 1000 yeas (according to Quran and hadith), there will be only khalifs. Indeed this is what Happend.​

However, Messengers continue to come:​

"O children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief." quran 7:35
al-A`raf 7:35​

"And if all the trees on Earth were pens, and the ocean, with seven oceans added to it, were ink, the words of God would not be exhausted: for God is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom."
Holy Qur’an, Sura Luqman Ayah 27

You are contradicting yourself.
Fristly, you believe Jesus is a Prophet. Then you are saying Christians say Jesus is God.
You cannot have it both. According to Quran, Jesus was a Prophet and Injil is from God. Thus, Jesus as a Prophet said "I am the First I am the Last"​

But Christians do not agree with your interpretation. See above. You cannot use your own interpretation anytime you like, then switch to Christian interpretation to make your point. You need to make a consistant interpretaion with Quran.​

Not really. Try again.​

When did Bible get corrupted ? Ask the more than 100 scholars who worked on the The New International Version (NIV) translation.
About John 7:53-8:11, here's what NIV says :
[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+7:53-8:11&version=NIV

About Luke 22:43-44, here's what NIV says :
Luke 22:44 Many early manuscripts do not have verses 43 and 44.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+22:43-44&version=NIV

About Mark 16:9-20, here's what NIV says :
[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16:9-20&version=NIV

So there's enough proof from Christian scholars about the interpolation and changes done to the original.

And I am in no way contradicting my self regarding Jesus's statement as a Prophet : "I am the First I am the Last". What I am saying is that verse makes no sense whatsoever whether Jesus is talking as God or Prophet. As God it makes no sense because God Almighty has no beginning or has no end. As a Prophet it makes no sense because no Jew, Christian or Muslim believe that Jesus was the FIRST prophet - so who knows what is meant by LAST either ? So that totally ambiguous statement has no value as an argument.

But regardless of your 2+2=5 logic, the Holy Qur'an clearly states :
"...This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion..." (Al-Qur'an 5:3)
AND
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam , never will it be accepted of him..." (Al Qur'an 3:85)


So God wouldn't say that He wouldn't accept any other new religion if He were to send more prophets and revelations - may be only in your twisted 2+2=5 logic.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

When did Bible get corrupted ? Ask the more than 100 scholars who worked on the The New International Version (NIV) translation.
About John 7:53-8:11, here's what NIV says :
[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]
John 7:53-8:11 NIV - [The earliest manuscripts and many - Bible Gateway

About Luke 22:43-44, here's what NIV says :
Luke 22:44 Many early manuscripts do not have verses 43 and 44.
Luke 22:43-44 NIV - An angel from heaven appeared to him - Bible Gateway

About Mark 16:9-20, here's what NIV says :
[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]
Mark 16:9-20 NIV - [The earliest manuscripts and some - Bible Gateway

So there's enough proof from Christian scholars about the interpolation and changes done to the original.

Dear LoverOfTruth,

I was hoping you do me a favour and refer to the details discussions I had before as I am working fulltime and have little time for detail discussions. But anyhow...
As to the question regarding when the Bible got corrupted.
If you refer to the Christian Scholar, they never agree Bible is corrupted. Some of them may admit that, there are very minor inaccuracies.
Moreover, if we want to investigate truth, we should also do our investigation, and not completely rely on what others say. Scholars are not God or gods.

The Bible is never corrupted, neither there is any verse in Quran that would say it is corrupted.
This is the interpretation of some of the Moslem religious leaders in order to justify Islam.
The Problem with this is that, if after Jesus left, His Book was also corrupted, then what did those people have to be guided with? How could God, who is caring and loving, left them for 600 years without proper guidance? Why God didn't send them a prophet earlier to tell them the Truth and give them the Book for their guidance? Why waiting for 600 years and then send Muhammad?

So, this view, is a blasphemy to the Loving and Providing God.

And I am in no way contradicting my self regarding Jesus's statement as a Prophet : "I am the First I am the Last". What I am saying is that verse makes no sense whatsoever whether Jesus is talking as God or Prophet. As God it makes no sense because God Almighty has no beginning or has no end. As a Prophet it makes no sense because no Jew, Christian or Muslim believe that Jesus was the FIRST prophet - so who knows what is meant by LAST either ? So that totally ambiguous statement has no value as an argument.

Dear LoverofTruth,

Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it is not part of Book of God.
"I am the first and last" is also in Quran:

“He is the First and the Last, the Outermost and the Innermost and He has full knowledge of all things,” - The Qur’an, 57:3.

As you said, God has no beginning and no end.
This statement is refering to unity of Messengers. Their first is their last, and their last is their first. They are the same reality which appears in every Age.
This is why Muhammad said, "I was before Adam", and Jesus said: "I was before Abraham"
Likewise Muhammad said: "I am all the Prophets" He also said: "I am the last"
If all of them say "I am the first, I am the last" is true.
(refer to Hadithes I placed in this thread when discussed with fearGod)

But regardless of your 2+2=5 logic, the Holy Qur'an clearly states :
"...This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion..." (Al-Qur'an 5:3)
AND
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam , never will it be accepted of him..." (Al Qur'an 3:85)

The completion of Religion does not mean that, revelation of God has ended. The following verses of Quran, confirms this:


For example, we see that God's favor was completed during the Age of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph:

And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of sayings and make His favor complete to you and to the children of Jacob, as He made it complete before to your fathers, Abraham and Isaac; surely your Lord is knowing, wise.
- Qur'an 12:6


We also see that God completed His favor through Moses:


Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
- Qur'an 6:154

So, in my view, the favour of God, which surely includes His Guidance was already completed to those people of the past.

But as Quran says, every Age has it's own Book.


If those religions of the past were not completed for those people, the Question arise that how could God, left them with an uncompleted guidance. We see this would contradict with Quran.

Regarding, "Islam" by this is meant, submission to God. Islam is not Muhammadism. The Islam, which is sumission to God, includes past, present and future. Islam is not just a name of the revelation that came to Muhammad.

For example Noah is a Moslem (see Quran 10:72)

Moses and His followers are called Muslims:

"And you do not resent us except because we believed in the signs of our Lord when they came to us. Our Lord, pour upon us patience and let us die as Muslims " 7:126​

Likewise desciples of Jesus were called Moslems in Quran.​

‘Believe in Me and on My Sent One!’ they said, ‘We believe; and bear witness we are Muslims’.” (Ma’idah – 5:111)​

So, Islam is not Muhammadism. By "Islam" is meant "Submission to God"
Past, Present, and Future revelations.

So God wouldn't say that He wouldn't accept any other new religion if He were to send more prophets and revelations - may be only in your twisted 2+2=5 logic.

Dear Loverof Truth, please try again.

 

[sojourner]

But even Christians don't believe that every statement in the Bible is verbatim word of God. And Qur'an is the verbatim word of God which has been preserved till this day. So there's no guarantee that what is stated in the Bible regarding that is really what God stated - so that doesn't take away anything from the fact that God states in the Holy Qur'an that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is the last Prophet.

...as if your statement that the "Quran is the verbatim word of God" is fact -- or anything other than blind faith.

So yes, my logic stays crystal clear as 2+2 = 4 unlike yours.

"Belief>fact" = logic.

Yeeeah. Right. And you say the sky is falling??

 

[sojourner]

When did Bible get corrupted ? Ask the more than 100 scholars who worked on the The New International Version (NIV) translation.
About John 7:53-8:11, here's what NIV says :
[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...11&version=NIV

About Luke 22:43-44, here's what NIV says :
Luke 22:44 Many early manuscripts do not have verses 43 and 44.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...44&version=NIV

About Mark 16:9-20, here's what NIV says :
[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...20&version=NIV

So there's enough proof from Christian scholars about the interpolation and changes done to the original.

**Psssst! Hey Gang! Your first clue that this is all bowl spit comes from the fact that he thinks there was an "original."

 

[loverOfTruth]

Dear LoverOfTruth,

I was hoping you do me a favour and refer to the details discussions I had before as I am working fulltime and have little time for detail discussions. But anyhow...
As to the question regarding when the Bible got corrupted.
If you refer to the Christian Scholar, they never agree Bible is corrupted. Some of them may admit that, there are very minor inaccuracies.
Moreover, if we want to investigate truth, we should also do our investigation, and not completely rely on what others say. Scholars are not God or gods.

The Bible is never corrupted, neither there is any verse in Quran that would say it is corrupted.
This is the interpretation of some of the Moslem religious leaders in order to justify Islam.
The Problem with this is that, if after Jesus left, His Book was also corrupted, then what did those people have to be guided with? How could God, who is caring and loving, left them for 600 years without proper guidance? Why God didn't send them a prophet earlier to tell them the Truth and give them the Book for their guidance? Why waiting for 600 years and then send Muhammad?

So, this view, is a blasphemy to the Loving and Providing God.



Dear LoverofTruth,

Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it is not part of Book of God.
"I am the first and last" is also in Quran:

“He is the First and the Last, the Outermost and the Innermost and He has full knowledge of all things,” - The Qur’an, 57:3.

As you said, God has no beginning and no end.
This statement is refering to unity of Messengers. Their first is their last, and their last is their first. They are the same reality which appears in every Age.
This is why Muhammad said, "I was before Adam", and Jesus said: "I was before Abraham"
Likewise Muhammad said: "I am all the Prophets" He also said: "I am the last"
If all of them say "I am the first, I am the last" is true.
(refer to Hadithes I placed in this thread when discussed with fearGod)



The completion of Religion does not mean that, revelation of God has ended. The following verses of Quran, confirms this:


For example, we see that God's favor was completed during the Age of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph:

And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of sayings and make His favor complete to you and to the children of Jacob, as He made it complete before to your fathers, Abraham and Isaac; surely your Lord is knowing, wise.
- Qur'an 12:6


We also see that God completed His favor through Moses:


Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
- Qur'an 6:154

So, in my view, the favour of God, which surely includes His Guidance was already completed to those people of the past.

But as Quran says, every Age has it's own Book.


If those religions of the past were not completed for those people, the Question arise that how could God, left them with an uncompleted guidance. We see this would contradict with Quran.

Regarding, "Islam" by this is meant, submission to God. Islam is not Muhammadism. The Islam, which is sumission to God, includes past, present and future. Islam is not just a name of the revelation that came to Muhammad.

For example Noah is a Moslem (see Quran 10:72)

Moses and His followers are called Muslims:

"And you do not resent us except because we believed in the signs of our Lord when they came to us. Our Lord, pour upon us patience and let us die as Muslims " 7:126​

Likewise desciples of Jesus were called Moslems in Quran.​

‘Believe in Me and on My Sent One!’ they said, ‘We believe; and bear witness we are Muslims’.” (Ma’idah – 5:111)​

So, Islam is not Muhammadism. By "Islam" is meant "Submission to God"
Past, Present, and Future revelations.



Dear Loverof Truth, please try again.

Let's read that verse again : ""If anyone desires a religion other than Islam , never will it be accepted of him..." (Al Qur'an 3:85)

Arabic states : 'Islami Deenan'

A 'religion' that is called 'Islam' - I don't know of any other religion named 'Submission to God' either. Better luck next time with your 2+2 =5 (for extremely higher value of 2) logic.

Sorry nothing other than Islam will be accepted as a RELIGION - no Bahai mentioned.

 

[sojourner]

Let's read that verse again : ""If anyone desires a religion other than Islam , never will it be accepted of him..." (Al Qur'an 3:85)

Arabic states : 'Islami Deenan'

A 'religion' that is called 'Islam' - I don't know of any other religion named 'Submission to God' either. Better luck next time with your 2+2 =5 (for extremely higher value of 2) logic.

Sorry nothing other than Islam will be accepted as a RELIGION - no Bahai mentioned.

as if the name actually proves anything. All religions feature submission to Deity as part of their paradigm.