The Growing Pains of Cultural Development

[Nova2216]

The USA does not have systemic racism no matter how many times people claim we do. No doubt there are some racist people in America but it is NOT systemic.

What about the cities where black people are policemen and Mayors?

On another note -

I think teachers and policemen should be at the top of the pay scale and not the bottom.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Before the first society abolished slavery, no society without slavery had existed.

Before the first society allowed people to vote for their leaders without restrictions, the practice of free and egalitarian elections had never existed before.

Before the first human being started making fire, there had never existed a human-made fireplace.


I always find it interesting how, if we look back at history, it is full of things nobody had ever done before.

It's also interesting on how none of it has completely ended either.

 

[PureX]

If history is any guide, we will make it through these growing pains a more just and free society. If you embrace these values, take heart.

Those are my thoughts, anyway. What are yours?

The problem is that we are not advancing in any significant way because we are not recognizing or addressing the real problem. Which is that we have set up a culture and social systems based on greed and selfishness as virtues. And on the willful exploitation of our fellow humans for our own individual benefit as being an act of nature. Race is just an easy means of identifying the weaker (any form of minority) so they can more easily be exploited by the stronger. If we were a predominantly dark skinned population, the light skinned people would be the weaker minority, and would be singled out for easy abuse and exploitation.

Slavery was not about "hating black people". It was about greed. Specifically, it was about the acceptance of greed as a motive of social interaction, to such a degree that abject enslavement became an acceptable way of life, for many. And even though we eventually made such absolute enslavement illegal, we have never addressed our affinity for the greed motive that inspired it. And so our collective desire to abuse and exploit others for our own individual benefit remains as strong today as it was in the days of legalized slavery. And all our laws against it continue to be attacked, corrupted, usurped, and de-legitimized by the many among us that still 'believe in' the right to subjugate and exploit their fellow humans for their own gain.

Racism is not really about race at all. It's about the stronger subjugating and exploiting the weaker. And it's about a culture that sees the greed that motivates this behavior as a virtue, instead of a vice.

 

[joe1776]

Do you know of any existing civilization where that has ever happened?

At one time, centuries ago, it must have been hard to believe that someday legal slavery would be abolished in every nation of the world.

 

[icehorse]

It is easy to get caught up in the day-to-day headlines and individual cases of overcorrection, conflict, and drama.

It seems good to me as long as we don't fall into "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" syndrome.

 

[Quintessence]

To follow up on @PureX 's thoughts, which are excellent by the way, we can then ask if greed is something that can reasonably be eliminated from the human species. Considering greed is in part a survival mechanism - consolidating resources is vital for survival to no small degree - I'm very doubtful of this. Humans like any other animal will exploit things around them to whatever extent they can get away with to serve their own self-interests. Rewriting that will require rewriting biology.

I tend to avoid looking at cultural shifts from the lens of the Myth of Progress, or presuming that cultural changes are some sort of "better" or "upward" trajectory. I recognize this is a value judgement that I am placing on what is happening, not the matter-of-fact of what is happening. Change always happens - that is the only certainty.

The direction of change can be predicted somewhat given human nature, and given human nature, I'm not at all confident that cultural change will continue on its so-called "progressive" trajectory. I'm confident of precisely the opposite. "Progressive" values are a luxury born of times of relative abundance - when there is less need to fight over basic survival needs. As the collapse continues and those times of relative abundance end, the "progressive" trajectory will whip back to something that is better adapted to the circumstances: sticking to "one's own kind" (whatever one takes that to mean) and not caring all that much about outsiders and their needs. None of this to say that cooperation still won't be a thing, but I'd expect "tribalistic" behavior to rise as the collapse continues. Maybe not on the particular issues described in the OP, but some other insider-outsider group dynamic will exist for this.

 

[Left Coast]

To follow up on @PureX 's thoughts, which are excellent by the way, we can then ask if greed is something that can reasonably be eliminated from the human species. Considering greed is in part a survival mechanism - consolidating resources is vital for survival to no small degree - I'm very doubtful of this. Humans like any other animal will exploit things around them to whatever extent they can get away with to serve their own self-interests. Rewriting that will require rewriting biology.

I tend to avoid looking at cultural shifts from the lens of the Myth of Progress, or presuming that cultural changes are some sort of "better" or "upward" trajectory. I recognize this is a value judgement that I am placing on what is happening, not the matter-of-fact of what is happening. Change always happens - that is the only certainty.

The direction of change can be predicted somewhat given human nature, and given human nature, I'm not at all confident that cultural change will continue on its so-called "progressive" trajectory. I'm confident of precisely the opposite. "Progressive" values are a luxury born of times of relative abundance - when there is less need to fight over basic survival needs. As the collapse continues and those times of relative abundance end, the "progressive" trajectory will whip back to something that is better adapted to the circumstances: sticking to "one's own kind" (whatever one takes that to mean) and not caring all that much about outsiders and their needs. None of this to say that cooperation still won't be a thing, but I'd expect "tribalistic" behavior to rise as the collapse continues. Maybe not on the particular issues described in the OP, but some other insider-outsider group dynamic will exist for this.

Do you expect this collapse as a function of climate change? Or something else?

 

[Quintessence]

Do you expect this collapse as a function of climate change? Or something else?

There are others who have commented on it better than I. I keep meaning to read the entirety of Jared Diamond's book that discusses the rise and fall of civilizations but we read a chapter of it in the environmental ethics class I took back in grad school. The causes of societal collapse are many and complicated. A major driver of collapse is resource (mis)use and the major case we looked at was Easter Island. Humanity is treating planet earth like an Easter Island, which is... not good. Climate change is symptomatic more than the driver. Maybe humanity will band together and realize its collective foolishness in overexploiting the planet it lives on and breeding too much. I'm doubtful, so instead I anticipate these things'll sort themselves out in messy, breathtaking dramas. Battle lines will get drawn, alliances will be formed, and different cultures will employ different strategies.

I think the ground squirrels will win. There's one of those adorable little balls of fluff munching the seeds that fell out of my bird feeder this morning. I don't usually see them in the neighborhood since it's the wrong habitat type. Go, little guy, go! Inherit the earth!

 

[PureX]

To follow up on @PureX 's thoughts, which are excellent by the way, we can then ask if greed is something that can reasonably be eliminated from the human species. Considering greed is in part a survival mechanism - consolidating resources is vital for survival to no small degree - I'm very doubtful of this. Humans like any other animal will exploit things around them to whatever extent they can get away with to serve their own self-interests. Rewriting that will require rewriting biology.

Selfishness may be an instinct that has always been within us, but for a significant chunk of human history, it was not perceived or expressed as a positive or acceptable motive for behavior. We humans have lived in small highly cooperative clans where selfishness could not be tolerated for longer than we have lived in any other social context. And we did so successfully. So I do not accept the idea that selfishness is an instinct that cannot be denied or set aside. It was set aside for the better part of our time on Earth.

I tend to avoid looking at cultural shifts from the lens of the Myth of Progress, or presuming that cultural changes are some sort of "better" or "upward" trajectory. I recognize this is a value judgement that I am placing on what is happening, not the matter-of-fact of what is happening.

Change always happens - that is the only certainty.

Progress, in this instance, refers to an increasing effectiveness resulting from the changes that are taking place as we traverse the course of our own evolution. An evolution that includes an expansion in the depth and breadth of consciousness. Continued existence, by itself, is neither valued nor allowed once consciousness enters the realm of possibility.

The direction of change can be predicted somewhat given human nature, and given human nature, I'm not at all confident that cultural change will continue on its so-called "progressive" trajectory. I'm confident of precisely the opposite. "Progressive" values are a luxury born of times of relative abundance - when there is less need to fight over basic survival needs. As the collapse continues and those times of relative abundance end, the "progressive" trajectory will whip back to something that is better adapted to the circumstances: sticking to "one's own kind" (whatever one takes that to mean) and not caring all that much about outsiders and their needs. None of this to say that cooperation still won't be a thing, but I'd expect "tribalistic" behavior to rise as the collapse continues. Maybe not on the particular issues described in the OP, but some other insider-outsider group dynamic will exist for this.

But I have observed that just the opposite is, in fact, the case. That as humanity finds itself with ever greater abundance, we become all the more selfish, and hording, as a result. The more we have, the more we want more of it. While the less we have, the more willing we become to share.

The point being that none of this is as inevitable or unstoppable as you seem to be implying.

 

[Left Coast]

The USA does not have systemic racism no matter how many times people claim we do. No doubt there are some racist people in America but it is NOT systemic.

And the many statistics and studies showing that systemic racism is in fact real won't go away no matter how many times you declare it isn't. This has been addressed extensively elsewhere on the forum.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

It's interesting and weird that the thread has shifted toward a conversation about the controversies of general human growth, and this is something that maybe couldn't be farther from the nexus of the contemporary conflict, in a way. No one, from what I can see, is rallying to the tune of an anti-growth narrative. Such an idea is so far outside the conversation, that it's probably considered to be almost apolitcal. Instead, the contention seems to be that groups have blocked each other from growth; from what I suppose might be defined as 'equity.' The problem is though, that all expansion from any side is going to put too much weight on the ship, in the end.

 

[Nova2216]

And the many statistics and studies showing that systemic racism is in fact real won't go away no matter how many times you declare it isn't. This has been addressed extensively elsewhere on the forum.

It matters greatly who did the studies and who they studied.

 

[Left Coast]

It matters greatly who did the studies and who they studied.

Thanks for that truism.

 

[Left Coast]

There are others who have commented on it better than I. I keep meaning to read the entirety of Jared Diamond's book that discusses the rise and fall of civilizations but we read a chapter of it in the environmental ethics class I took back in grad school. The causes of societal collapse are many and complicated. A major driver of collapse is resource (mis)use and the major case we looked at was Easter Island. Humanity is treating planet earth like an Easter Island, which is... not good. Climate change is symptomatic more than the driver. Maybe humanity will band together and realize its collective foolishness in overexploiting the planet it lives on and breeding too much. I'm doubtful, so instead I anticipate these things'll sort themselves out in messy, breathtaking dramas. Battle lines will get drawn, alliances will be formed, and different cultures will employ different strategies.

I think the ground squirrels will win. There's one of those adorable little balls of fluff munching the seeds that fell out of my bird feeder this morning. I don't usually see them in the neighborhood since it's the wrong habitat type. Go, little guy, go! Inherit the earth!

I think you're right that greedy misuse of the planet's resources is a major driver of climate change and conflict. I think our collective consciousness is also changing in this regard, as more of us embrace renewable and efficient energy sources, plant-based diet, and responsible family planning. I think the question will be if we make the necessary changes fast enough before the crisis comes to head.

 

[Tambourine]

It's also interesting on how none of it has completely ended either.

If we can't get a perfect society at the first try, only a better one, then should we abandon all attempts at bettering people's lives?

 

[SomeRandom]

It's also interesting on how none of it has completely ended either.

And never will. Probably. But that does not mean we should just give up.
Tell someone 30 years ago that Same Sex Marriage would be totally legal in a number of Western countries and they’d likely balk at such a suggestion.
Tell someone 50 years ago that there would be a time where interracial couples would be seen as normal by most of society and you’d likely run into the same incredulous attitude. Every step we have made as a society was once thought of as impossible. In that sense we have already achieved the impossible multiple times. Why stop now?