The Hadith, The Muhaditheen, The Madhhabs & Fiqh

[Gharib]

Assalamu alaykum.

In another thread three Sahih Hadith were presented regarding the age of the Prophet and all three had differing ages.

The thread - http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/147655-apparent-contradictions-quran-hadith.html

I explained that the Ulama have looked into the matter and have concluded that the age of the Prophet at the time of his death was 63 and not 60 or 65 as the other two hadith claimed.

In turn the question of how can the other two hadith be Sahih (authentic) if what they say about the age of the Prophet is wrong?

To avoid going off topic, I decided to open this thread and answer that question here insha Allah.

The thread title however, mentions the Madhhabs and Fiqh. I intend on explaining why following a madhhab is necessary and how Fiqh deals with hadith.

 

[Gharib]

If we carefully look into the two most common hadith books namely Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim which contain only hadith of strong chain of narration, it becomes apparent that some hadith contradict each other such as the three hadith regarding the age of the Prophet.

This issue of whether the hadith contradict each other or not and how we should apply them is not what the Muhaditheen (collectors of hadith) deal with.

A Muhadith only seeks to find sayings and distinguish whether they are authentic or not.

I will give an example of a Sahih hadith which contradicts the Qur'an. Even though it contradicts the Qur'an, according to the science of hadith it is Sahih.

This is my statement (i.e hadith/saying) in show of how the science of hadith works:
"Muslims are not obligated to pray". (lets say I said this before Salah (payer) became obligatory upon us)

A thousand years from now, a Muhadith comes across this saying of mine and he begins his quest in distinguishing whether the hadith is true or false - meaning, did I really say it or not.

First he looks into my biography and finds no reason why he should reject the saying (meaning that I was not known to be a liar, nor did I have any memory issues etc) He does this same thing with all the people who have transmitted the hadith and finds that all narrators are trustworthy people etc.

Note, a hadith can have more than one chain of narration.

After doing all that work, the Muhadith comes to the conclusion that the statement "Muslims are not obligated to pray" really did come from me and there is no valid reason nor any small doubts that it came from me or that the narrators after me who passed it down to the next generation were untrustworthy people or had any memory issues etc.

Now the Muhadith classes this hadith as Sahih with a strong chain of narration (I know, I'm a good Muslim lol).
But after all that the question still remains the same, how can it be Sahih if it contradicts the Qur'an?

As I mentioned before, the science of hadith only deals with what classification a hadith takes, they even go on to comment them (i.e explain it's historical background and the reasons why it was said and to whom it was said etc).

The matter of obeying the hadith moves into the science of Fiqh, which deals with the issue of 'does the hadith contradict the Qur'an, does it contradict other Sahih hadith, how can we apply it if it doesn't contradict anything, etc.'

So what the Fukaha do now after the hadith has been classed Sahih (authentic) is they see that it obviously contradicts the Qur'an, it contradicts other Sahih hadith and they say that we cannot follow this hadith, moreover they say that this hadith due to being Sahih, was said before Salah had become mandatory upon the Muslims (i.e they explain it from a historical point of view)

So in conclusion, the hadith is Sahih but we cannot apply it (obey it) because it contradicts the Qur'an and other Sahih hadith and was said at a point in history when Salah had not yet become obligatory upon Muslims.

I hope this is clear, if anyone has any questions on this please feel free to ask.

 

[Assad91]

Akhi, this is why I always ask the quranist, where they got their education in islamic sciences. People these days, don't know any arabic, yet feel qualified to make rulings on hadith and fiqh.

 

[Union]

Akhi, this is why I always ask the quranist, where they got their education in islamic sciences. People these days, don't know any arabic, yet feel qualified to make rulings on hadith and fiqh.

For your own information Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim were Persian and not Arab . How did they know Arabic ??

 

[Gharib]

@ Union

I see now that you don't wish to have a proper discussion but instead just seek to speak ill of the Ahlus-sunnah. You are only looking at this through a biased lens and only seek to find faults rather than to correct yourself when corrected.

Sorry but I don't have time for you.

 

[Union]

@ Union

I see now that you don't wish to have a proper discussion but instead just seek to speak ill of the Ahlus-sunnah. You are only looking at this through a biased lens and only seek to find faults rather than to correct yourself when corrected.

Sorry but I don't have time for you.

Your time is not for an open-mind rational person . A Muslim whose heart is full with light of the divine Qur'an , it is not so easy to fool them...


[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you VERIFY it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

 

[Gharib]

Your time is not for an open-mind rational person . A Muslim whose heart is full with light of the divine Qur'an , it is not so easy to fool them...


[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you VERIFY it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

That's a very handy translation to prove a point. The thing is, that verse is given a false interpretation/translation.

Sahih International Translation:
[17:36] And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed, the hearing, the sight and the heart - about all those [one] will be questioned.

The Arabic text doesn't mention anything about 'unless you verify it for yourself'. Lets not call that intentional dishonesty, lets just say it was accidental OK.

 

[Union]

That's a very handy translation to prove a point. The thing is, that verse is given a false interpretation/translation.

Sahih International Translation:
[17:36] And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed, the hearing, the sight and the heart - about all those [one] will be questioned.

The Arabic text doesn't mention anything about 'unless you verify it for yourself'. Lets not call that intentional dishonesty, lets just say it was accidental OK.

Thanks for pointing it out . It is not in original Arabic . Thanks again . I copied the verse from Dr. RK's translation .

 

[Gharib]

Thanks for pointing it out . It is not in original Arabic . Thanks again . I copied the verse from Dr. RK's translation .

You should be more careful with the teachings of Rashad Khalifa

 

[Gharib]

Akhi, this is why I always ask the quranist, where they got their education in islamic sciences. People these days, don't know any arabic, yet feel qualified to make rulings on hadith and fiqh.

I have a quote from a scholar in response to this. I feel sad posting it, but it is true unfortunately:

"If you find yourself in a time when speech is accepted as knowledge and knowledge is accepted as deeds, then you are in the worst time and with the worst people"

- Abu Hazim Al Ashja'i

Abû Hâzim Salmân Al-Ashja’î (died circa 100H) was one of the eminent Tâbi’în. He was a fully reliable transmitter of hadîth and a companion of Abû Hurayrah – Allâh be pleased with him.

Source: Abû Hâzim Salmân Al-Ashja'î - Sayings of the Salaf

He said it 1300 years ago only to come true today. Subhan Allah

 

[dynavert2012]

i studied little about the science of Hadith but the first justification came to me now that yes all of the three hadith are authentic
the confusion came always from the definition of the word authentic
the accurate definition of that word is that the body of the hadith is really said by the narrator as per you examples that Anas ibn malik really said that the prophet age was 60 while ibn abas said it was 63 while ammar said it was 65, surly only one of those three companions is the correct while the remaining two are false
but Bukhari or muslim just telling you what the three companions said about the age of the prophet
so the authenticity means that those companions said these three ages each one has his own calculations you got it?

 

[Union]

i studied little about the science of Hadith but the first justification came to me now that yes all of the three hadith are authentic
the confusion came always from the definition of the word authentic
the accurate definition of that word is that the body of the hadith is really said by the narrator as per you examples that Anas ibn malik really said that the prophet age was 60 while ibn abas said it was 63 while ammar said it was 65, surly only one of those three companions is the correct while the remaining two are false
but Bukhari or muslim just telling you what the three companions said about the age of the prophet
so the authenticity means that those companions said these three ages each one has his own calculations you got it?

So you are saying there is no value of Matn in the science of Hadith ? If Mr. X seems to be reliable to me , I have to accept anything he says , whether right or wrong ?? If a reliable narrator says ' Muhammad is not a prophet at all ' , the Imam should classify it Sahih and should record in his Sahih collection ?

And they had not used any different calculations. If you have any explanation , please bring it here .

 

[Gharib]

So you are saying there is no value of Matn in the science of Hadith ? If Mr. X seems to be reliable to me , I have to accept anything he says , whether right or wrong ?? If a reliable narrator says ' Muhammad is not a prophet at all ' , the Imam should classify it Sahih and should record in his Sahih collection ?

And they had not used any different calculations. If you have any explanation , please bring it here .

Matn (text) and Sanad (chain of narration) are the 2 biggest conditions in the science of hadith.

To prove that a hadith is Sahih, as dynavert has said is to be able to verify that the hadith was said by a particular person, that the text is consistent (ie. makes sense and not just random words) and that the chain of narration is consistent. The quote that you gave before explains this.

There have been recorded hadith of the people of Makkah who did not accept Islam at first having said many things about the Prophet which were not true, such as him being a liar, a magician, a false Prophet etc, the Qur'an itself mentions these too.

What is said in the hadith about the Prophet may be false, but the hadith are considered to be authentic (sahih).

 

[Union]

Matn (text) and Sanad (chain of narration) are the 2 biggest conditions in the science of hadith.

To prove that a hadith is Sahih, as dynavert has said is to be able to verify that the hadith was said by a particular person, that the text is consistent (ie. makes sense and not just random words) and that the chain of narration is consistent. The quote that you gave before explains this.

There have been recorded hadith of the people of Makkah who did not accept Islam at first having said many things about the Prophet which were not true, such as him being a liar, a magician, a false Prophet etc, the Qur'an itself mentions these too.

What is said in the hadith about the Prophet may be false, but the hadith are considered to be authentic (sahih).

Hmm! a Sahih Hadith can be fasle ! Is it your personal opinion or you have support/verdict from pioneers about this ? Ibn salah , Al-Shafi , Asqalin , Nawawi , Azmi , anybody ?

 

[Rational_Mind]

Hmm! a Sahih Hadith can be fasle ! Is it your personal opinion or you have support/verdict from pioneers about this ? Ibn salah , Al-Shafi , Asqalin , Nawawi , Azmi , anybody ?

The Muhadditheen, every single one, said it. They said if you find anything here to be false latter throw it away. Nobody was cocky or arrogant like the Mullah today who likes to misuse or linger on weak and faulty Hadith to hold political positions. Unfortunately the Sunni Shia Clerics have gotten busy in Oil and Gas and hurt each other while being played by the West and Israel. Hadith is ease for layman to go through, all they need to do is make sure they confirm with the Quran that what is said makes sense.

You have stated that Quran-alone accept the Hadith. But from practice this is not true, because it appears that most of your posts, and almost all your threads, are directed to destroy any value in Hadith altogether.

For example, when it comes to the Veil, the one described in the Quran, it appears that you have conveniently left alone the Hadith which are sufficiently in line with the Quran. Rather you favour your own interpretation. Which leads me to believe that to some degree Quran-alone are under the impression that Hadith couldn't possibly contain the interpretation of Holy Prophet (saw) on the Quran, and even if they do, they are not reliable...

 

[Assad91]

Hmm! a Sahih Hadith can be fasle ! Is it your personal opinion or you have support/verdict from pioneers about this ? Ibn salah , Al-Shafi , Asqalin , Nawawi , Azmi , anybody ?

I don't understand how hard it is to understand that authentic simply means it was said, period. It's application is a whole different field.

 

[Gharib]

The Muhadditheen, every single one, said it. They said if you find anything here to be false latter throw it away. Nobody was cocky or arrogant like the Mullah today who likes to misuse or linger on weak and faulty Hadith to hold political positions. Unfortunately the Sunni Shia Clerics have gotten busy in Oil and Gas and hurt each other while being played by the West and Israel. Hadith is ease for layman to go through, all they need to do is make sure they confirm with the Quran that what is said makes sense.

You have stated that Quran-alone accept the Hadith. But from practice this is not true, because it appears that most of your posts, and almost all your threads, are directed to destroy any value in Hadith altogether.

For example, when it comes to the Veil, the one described in the Quran, it appears that you have conveniently left alone the Hadith which are sufficiently in line with the Quran. Rather you favour your own interpretation. Which leads me to believe that to some degree Quran-alone are under the impression that Hadith couldn't possibly contain the interpretation of Holy Prophet (saw) on the Quran, and even if they do, they are not reliable...

I can see some intentional dishonesty or unintentional ignorance from your post especially the first paragraph.

Ahamdis are always perfect and better than everyone else aren't they. To me it looks like it's a branch of salafism where everyone else but them is either taking part in worshiping graves, committing shirk or taking part in bidah.

 

[Gharib]

I don't understand how hard it is to understand that authentic simply means it was said, period. It's application is a whole different field.

The Qur'an doesn't say it.

 

[dynavert2012]

Hmm! a Sahih Hadith can be fasle ! Is it your personal opinion or you have support/verdict from pioneers about this ? Ibn salah , Al-Shafi , Asqalin , Nawawi , Azmi , anybody ?

why it's always hard to the quranists to understand hadith? even here in Egypt when of them appears in a talk show i feel like that it's the same words of you

what Gharib said isn't his own opinion it's all sunni scholars even we apply this rule in the quran itself and you apply it in the quran itself

for example the quran mentioned the insults of the mushrekeen to prophet Mohamed as a liar, the quran is authentic? Yes, so is prophet mohamed a liar? NO, so is the body "matn of the quran are false? you answer this

it's the same same, bukhari said it's authentically that ammar said that the prophet died at 65 yes it's authentic that he said that but he was false as the mushrekeen were false when they said about the prophet that he's liar

you got it?

 

[Union]

@ Dynavert2012 . I like when you always say at the end 'You got it ?' But Firstly I asked you to bring their different calculations of determining the age of Prophet , you didn't . Then asked to bring statements from the Muhaddeethin that a Sahih Hadith can be false/untrue , again you didn't . After building castle in the air , how you can you expect me 'to get it ' . You got it ?