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The Holocaust: Can it ever happen again?

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
I did combat with the little man on my shoulder shouting "you're just being egotistical if you make a new thread from that post!" and he lost.

I dedicate this thread therefore to my Jewish brothers and sisters and all those who died in the Holocaust. My apologies to Sunstone for lifting it from his thread.

--------------------------

Those who do not believe in moral absolutes will encounter difficulties when trying to describe Hitler.

Since I do not harbor any such debilitation, I can with confidence and moral authority denounce Hitler and everything he stood for as being purely evil, which I would do to my dying breath and with a gun pointed to my head.

In order to understand some of the common misperceptions (some of which unfortunately have reared their head on RF and HERE) I took a year out of my years of academia to take part in an advanced, in-depth study of the Holocaust. One thing I took away with me: it is nothing less than moral equivalence and indecisiveness of the general populace that allowed him to accomplish so much evil.

What I learned shocked me. I would encourage anyone who has the time or inclination to study the Holocaust in depth and to speak personally with any survivors of the concentration camps about their experiences (so few are left), or to read their books.

Also of interest are the many psychological studies conducted to determine exactly how much coercion is needed to get "the average citizen on the street" to inflict pain or damage on another person.

The unwillingness to stand up against a majority view, the willingness to accept and believe propaganda when everyone else is doing it too, the fear and "respect" of authority in all its forms from the media to the local neighborhood 'brotherhood' ... all these things made it quite easy for Hitler to dream of killing millions of people and brainwash millions more into doing it for him. The German people weren't robots, and they weren't that different from any other people anywhere.

Make no mistake. It could happen in any country, any time.

The Nazi regime had an obsessive need to document every detail of what they did. Towards the end, in panic, they tried to burn the thousands of miles of film footage and millions of pages of documents they knew would their undoing. But by then it was too late. Much of this material remains intact. I have seen hours and hours of these tapes and they sickened me, as they would any rational, moral human being.

There are exceptions. One incident recorded in the Austrian countryside: the local villagers had enthusiastically rounded up several Jewish families and had them brought to a barn. An SS officer nearby took a unit of men to the place and lined the Jews up against the side of the barn and ordered them to fire when ready. One of the young soldiers calmly asked for a moment to prepare. Then he took off his helmet, ripped off his insignia and removed his dogtags, placing them in the helmet. He handed it and his rifle to the officer. He walked to the line of Jews who were all holding hands awaiting their deaths, and joined hands with them, before the firing squad did what they went there to do.

There was individual resistance. Just not much of it was recorded, as by then Hitler had perfected the fine art of strangling and controlling all communication.

Do many of us today realize the depth of Hitler's sadomasochistic zeal to destroy and engage the German people as active participants in his campaigns of destruction... How many people know what lengths he went to to try to destroy every man, woman and child in Berlin before he killed himself... He ordered them all into the underground shelters and sewer system and then told his officers to flood it all.

Fortunately by then there were enough of them who saw his madness and refused to do it. Some were smart enough to kill themselves in the underground bunker with Hitler and Eva to avoid the trials they knew would come; others escaped to places like Argentina and Bolivia and lived long enough to see their grandchildren. Some were caught by people like Simon Wiesenthal, whom I had the honor of seeing in person. I would encourage anyone who is interested in the stories from those who were there to read anything by him or Elie Wiesel who said:

Never shall I forget that night, the first night in camp, which has turned my life into one long night, seven times cursed and seven times sealed. Never shall I forget that smoke. Never shall I forget the little faces of the children, whose bodies I saw turned into wreaths of smoke beneath a silent blue sky.
Never shall I forget those flames which consumed my faith forever.
Never shall I forget that nocturnal silence which deprived me, for all eternity, of the desire to live. Never shall I forget those moments which murdered my God and my soul and turned my dreams to dust. Never shall I forget these things, even if I am condemned to live as long as God Himself. Never.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
It is happening again, and in several places of the world.

The difference is it's not happening in a 'civilized,' Western first world country, which is why what happened in Germany scares the living daylights out of everyone.
 

FatMan

Well-Known Member
angellous_evangellous said:
It is happening again, and in several places of the world.

The difference is it's not happening in a 'civilized,' Western first world country, which is why what happened in Germany scares the living daylights out of everyone.

I second that opinion.
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
It has happened again, numerous times - and it happened before - and it's still happening.

In the Osmanli Empire, in Bosnia, in Rwanda - to equally systematic but less-often fatal barbarity in Tibet, Darfur, and other regions.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
You just have to get people scared enough to go along with it. Economic hardship combined with religious (or nationalist or racist) fervor combined with men of power with the will to carry it out is all it really takes. Which is why we see it again and again and again throughout the world both before and since.

If you don't think a severe economic downturn and a couple more terrorist attacks couldn't get a majority of Americans thinking like Dennis Prager and wanting to round up Muslims and people who "look Arab," you are mistaken. And then it's simply a question of whether there are people in power with the will to carry out the torturing and murdering them by the thousands or millions and selling it as necessary to support our security and economic well-being.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
It is happening again, and in several places of the world.

The difference is it's not happening in a 'civilized,' Western first world country, which is why what happened in Germany scares the living daylights out of everyone.

I should add also that the recent and ongoing genocides in the third world do not threaten the economic and cultural stability of the West.

Hitler and his allies could have conquered the civilized world, destroying the democratic/capitalist culture of the West.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Genocide is occuring all over the world...
and just like The Holocaust when it was happening...most of the world doesn't care.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Moon Woman said:
There was individual resistance. Just not much of it was recorded, as by then Hitler had perfected the fine art of strangling and controlling all communication.
I just wanted to highlight this short paragraph as it makes two critical points: individuals refusing to give in to mass thinking and the importance of free flow of information.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
angellous_evangellous said:
It is happening again, and in several places of the world.

The difference is it's not happening in a 'civilized,' Western first world country, which is why what happened in Germany scares the living daylights out of everyone.

Not to be a jerk but I hadn't heard about +/- 26 million peoople being rounded up and gassed, burned, tortured, killed in recent history. Or maybe I'm trying to avoid saying the thing we really must not ever allow ourselves to say, like oh it happens all the time.

I would agree about the civilized, western, modern pov. It made it harder for people to distance themselves from the horrible possibility: COULD IT HAPPEN HERE? Could I become either a victim or perpetrator of such evil?

Some additional perspective:

Holocaust Forgotten lists 5 million non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust, Niewyk suggests that the broadest definitions of the Holocaust would have as many as 17 million victims. The 26 million number is given in Service d'Information des Crimes de Guerre: Crimes contre la Personne Humain, Camps de Concentration (Paris, 1946), 197.

Suicide: it is estimated that in Berlin alone, 1,600 Jews killed themselves between 1938 and 1945.

Taking into account all minority groups, the total death toll rises considerably; estimates generally place the total number of Holocaust victims at 9 to 11 million, though some estimates have been as high as 26 million.




Other Victims:

Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About 220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as 800,000) — between a quarter to a half of their European population. Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or "undesirable" included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million killed, mostly by Croat Ustaše), Soviet military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories including Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled, homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons Eastern Christians, and Catholic and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed. --WIKIPEDIA




I find it frankly disturbing, the continual attempts to either deny the Holocaust ever happened or to dilute or dismiss its significance in any way.

It's just people trying to distance themselves, to shelter themselves in denial. And to ignore the obvious implications and possibilities that exist within themselves and those around them.
 

FatMan

Well-Known Member
If you are truly disturbed by the Holocaust, then you should be equally disturbed by any genocide, regardless of if it is 26 million people or several thousands of them.

The genocide in Rwanda and in the former Yugoslavia is appalling, and it is used to show that things like this did not end with the holocaust.

Sadly, there are more examples than just those two.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
FatMan said:
If you are truly disturbed by the Holocaust, then you should be equally disturbed by any genocide, regardless of if it is 26 million people of several thousands of them.

The genocide in Rwanda and in the former Yugoslavia is appalling, and it is used to show that things like this did not end with the holocaust.

Sadly, there are more examples than just those two.

true...
simply because the Nazis were better and more organized in their genocide doesn't take away from the horror of other such acts around the world today...
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
jewscout said:
true...
simply because the Nazis were better and more organized in their genocide doesn't take away from the horror of other such acts around the world today...

I think Eva described the different best - we actually had a chance to defend ourselves. It isn't universally true - I mean, if you were a Muslim woman in Visegrad or a Muslim man in Srebrenica, you did not have any chance to defend yourself. Either you survived by some miracle, or you're dead and burried. But in an overall sense, in terms of the survival of the Bosniak nation, we were not fully in threat. If the attempt to half Sarajevo, in 1993, and then exterminate one half with all resources first, then the other, had been successful then it is reasonable to expect other cities that held on like Tuzla and Bihac to have fallen as well.

But there would still be 3 millions of persons in Turkey of Bosniak ethnic ancestry, 40,000 of which were actually born and raised in Bosnia. There would still be a huge Bosniak population in Austria, and so on. So we were not in a fully existential danger.

I also like a quote, I forget by whom - some western politician:

"People say the genocide in Bosnia and Herzegovina was not as bad because "only a couple hundred thousand" people were killed. But if Hitler had employed the same torturous methods against the Jews that the Serbs used against the Muslims and Roman Catholics of Bosnia, it too would've taken him centuries to kill 6 million."

So holocausts can be different in different ways, but the whole thing is the same to me.
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
jewscout said:
Genocide is occuring all over the world...
and just like The Holocaust when it was happening...most of the world doesn't care.

It's true. I'll never forget one scene in the Bosnian film Zemlja (Land). It made the audience watching laugh at first, but then feel ashamed - just as the director must've intended.

There is three Muslims sitting in a trench, bombs falling around, they're doing their hair, picking at their nails, listening to nationalist Muslim music on the radio. One of them is reading the paper and all of a sudden he says:

OH MY GOD! OH MY GOD!!!

And the other two are saying: What? What?

And he says: What a bloody mess in Rwanda!

:p
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
OUR LAST HOLOCAUST LECTURE: (I took a few notes... mostly to keep from crying so much.)

An elderly man walked into the room and sat down. He was tall, with a full head of snowy white hair. Though slightly bent, he carried himself with great dignity.

Quietly and without tears, he told us of life in Nazi Germany as a young Jewish boy, of suffering beyond comprehension in the Ravensbruk camp. Beatings, starvation, torture, all of it. He told of losing everything he had ever known and finding himself alone afterwards, all of his loved ones dead.

When he finished, the familiar silence of grief filled the room.

I will answer your questions now, he said.

What would you have us learn from this, someone asked.

There is only one reason I decided to live, he said. For days like this, to be here talking to people like you so that you would never forget. And then he almost shouted: Please, NEVER forget!

And he said: I would tell you this, you can only improve your own little corner of the world. It is your choice, to make it better, or to make it worse.

Make it better, he said. Then he stood, bowed to our instructor and left.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Not on topic, but sadly related... I was remembering Wounded Knee this morning. I've done some Native North American studies, (but I still feel as though I know only the tip of the iceberg of the subject). One thing we spent much time on, partly because it is well documented, was the systematic attempted extermination of the native people by our own government.

Yes it could happen again. It could even happen here; it has before.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Maize said:
Not on topic, but sadly related... I was remembering Wounded Knee this morning. I've done some Native North American studies, (but I still feel as though I know only the tip of the iceberg of the subject). One thing we spent much time on, partly because it is well documented, was the systematic attempted extermination of the native people by our own government.

Yes it could happen again. It could even happen here; it has before.

I think it's on topic. There are so many tragic stories of atrocities committed in the name of "god" or country or race or money. And Wounded Knee is one of the many. This is from Black Elk Speaks, an interview published in 1932 with an aging Lakota medicine man, Black Elk, about the massacre at Wounded Knee:[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

So we broke camp next day and went down from the O-ona-gazhee to Pine Ridge, and many, many Lakotas were already there. Also, there were many, many soldiers. They stood in two lines with their guns held in front of them as we went through to where we camped.
And so it was all over.
I did not know then how much was ended. When I look back now from this high hill of my old age, I can still see the butchered women and children lying heaped and scattered all along the crooked gulch as plain as when I saw them with eyes still young. And I can see that something else died there in the bloody mud, and was buried in the blizzard. A people's dream died there. It was a beautiful dream.
And I, to whom so great a vision was given in my youth,--you see me now a pitiful old man who has done nothing, for the nation's hoop is broken and scattered. There is no center any longer, and the sacred tree is dead.
 

kiwimac

Brother Napalm of God's Love
I see that Gypsies did not make the list of those killed in the camps. Many tens of thousands were.

kiwimac
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
From recovered Nazi correspondence:

Letter from chief of institution for feeble-minded in Stetten to Reich Minister of justice Dr. Frank, September 6, 1940 ( Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I, p. 854).
Dear Reich Minister,
The measure being taken at present with mental patients of all kinds have caused a complete lack of confidence in justice among large groups of people. Without the consent of relatives and guardians, such patients are being transferred to different institutions. After a short time they are notified that the person concerned has died of some disease...
If the state really wants to carry out the extermination of these or at least of some mental patients, shouldn't a law be promulgated, which can be justified before the people - a law that would give everyone the assurance of careful examination as to whether he is due to die or entitled to live and which would also give the relatives a chance to be heard, in a similar way, as provided by the law for the prevention of Hereditarily affected Progeny?

Letter from Dr. Wurm, of the Wuerttemberg Evangelical Provincial Church, to Reich Minister of interior Dr. Frick, September 5, 1940 ( Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1946, Supp. A, p. 1223).
Dear Reich Minister,
On July 19th I sent you a letter about the systematic extermination of lunatics, feeble-minded and epileptic persons. Since then this practice has reached tremendous proportions: recently the inmates of old-age homes have also been included. The basis for this practice seems to be that in an efficient nation there should be no room for weak and frail people. It is evident from the many reports which we are receiving that the people's feelings are being badly hurt by the measures ordered and that the feeling of legal insecurity is spreading which is regrettable from the point of view of national and state interest.
 

Mavrikmind

Active Member
When I became old enough to realize what was going on in the world, I actually felt ashamed to be a human. Maybe because I'm very strong willed, I find it very hard to believe that an entire nation of people, were brainwashed into believing that the horrific ways the goverment killed people was ok. I cannot fathom how one could believe that.
I've heard that most didn't know what was going on. I say Bulls---, it was staring them in the face. I know it stares me in the face when I think about my Native American brothers, my African brothers, My Bosnian Brothers and all my Brothers and Sisters all over the world staring down the barrel of a rifle. Knowing that they will never see another sunset.
I feel that every time I think about them. So I just don't think that the citizens of Germany didn't know. I think they knew but were too scared to stop it.
I know something else too. I believe it could happen again and I could be a victim or a Perpetrator. I say this, I would be a victim. For one reason only, I would fight untill I was caught or killed. No doupt about it.
I have one question. What can one person do to stop this? Are there groups fighting against all this horror, that a person could join? I just don't know hwere to look.
 
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