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The Holy Fire - Myth or Miracle?

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe Scienctiest to investigate all that? Who is stopping them? Or invitation is needed ?
They would probably need permission to access all areas whilst the miracle is in progress, as well as someone on hand from the archaeology department of one of Jerusalem's university department in case any stones or pieces of the alter require temporary removal to investigate what is inside or underneath them I'd imagine.

If you can write to the leaders of the Orthodox Christianity asking if they are willing to give a team of skeptics all areas access during the alleged miracle I would be willing to write to skeptic magazine to ask if they are prepared to travel?
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
I, like most people, tend to assume my experiences are good evidence.But the truth is they are not. There are so many different ways our minds can interpret what we sense that is misleading. This is one of the reasons why anecdotes are not evidence.For example, there are Catholics who claim to have seen the Virgin Mary. Do you think for one minute I think that's the actual case?
I did not refer to my expirience however.
Just to note it.
But i think it has something.

Yes. God sent the earthquake -- supernatural explanation. The earthquake was due to Plate Tectonics -- natural explanation.
Yes i understand what you mean.
But let's say for the sake of the argument that is being lighten up.

I have seen a man holding the candles under his beard for a time and the normal thing is for the beard to burn.
Why does it not burn is the question?

If a perfectly natural explanation does the trick, it just makes no sense to go for a supernatural cause.
Well that is the thing.

How does it not burn and is painless for a period of time and then starts being oposite of what i stated.

Because the guy that goes into the room is the one claiming that a miracle happened, and expects us to just trust him.
Correct , but the effect after with the candles tells something more or?

I mean , it isn't the same to me when i see that the fire is painless and then it is not.

No one is doubting that the fire exists. The question is, rather, where did it come from.
Well , my focus is more on why does it have such an effect.It is very strange to me.

In my research into many different religions, I have found claims of "miracles" in almost all of them. If I introduced you to someone in Yiguandao who had seen the Buddha channeled by a young girl, would you assume that it was true?
I have seen a lot of claims also , that is why i don't belive just like that.

I said what is my main concern about this topic.
I think it's valid.
Even if it is naturally caused.


Good conversation, btw :)
Yes i agree.
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
They would probably need permission to access all areas whilst the miracle is in progress, as well as someone on hand from the archaeology department of one of Jerusalem's university department in case any stones or pieces of the alter require temporary removal to investigate what is inside or underneath them I'd imagine.

If you can write to the leaders of the Orthodox Christianity asking if they are willing to give a team of skeptics all areas access during the alleged miracle I would be willing to write to skeptic magazine to ask if they are prepared to travel?
Maybe , why not.But we have to wait untill next year , Orthodox Easter was this weekend.
But the whole procces needs to be examined,on that we agree.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe , why not.But we have to wait untill next year , Orthodox Easter was this weekend.
But the whole procces needs to be examined,on that we agree.
I wouldn't wait till next year to write to the orthodox leaders asking them for all areas permission during the alleged miracle if I were you, it'll probably take at least 6 months for them to get back to you. Then the team at skeptic magazine would need to book their travel plans etc.

A year will be barely enough time if we get started now.
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
I wouldn't wait till next year to write to the orthodox leaders asking them for all areas permission during the alleged miracle if I were you, it'll probably take at least 6 months for them to get back to you. Then the team at skeptic magazine would need to book their travel plans etc.

A year will be barely enough time if we get started now.
Yes , i will contact the Church i belong to next week since i am traveling to my home land.It has to go from 'lower' to 'higher' ranks.Otherwise time would be a problem as you said.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Why do you think that other sources do not matter?
Any source can be relevant, this was a question about expertise and, significantly, the approach to the question. Are we asking "What could be the causes of this phenomena?" or "Can you prove this isn't a miracle?".

Well , this is arguable
If they wanted to prove it (or at least counter the counter-claims) via independent scientific means, they could easily take that step. They are in complete control of the place after all. Religions are rarely interested in proving their claims though, and often make specific statements against it (such as the "not testing God" concept).

My personal belief is my personal belief , it only matters to me and i have no intent or any reason to show it as otherwise.
Why did you choose to post it on a public forum then? You must have had some reason for creating this thread beyond anything that only matters to you.

No one has ever provided explenation , regardless of what belief he had(Orthodox or non-Orthodox).
The possible mundane explanation is that some hidden source is used to light the initial flame (or some spontaneously flammable substance like phosphorous, which I saw suggested elsewhere). It's also worth noting that it isn't automatically true that the same process has happened through all the years this has been done. For example, there could have been something unexplained the first time that the priests then artificially replicated.

Again, none of this is about proving or disproving anything. We're only at the point of what is possible and plausible at the moment. I think there are plausible mundane explanations for everything I'd seen and read about this. "Miracle" isn't even an explanation, it just raises more questions, so without much more detail, that doesn't have anything like as much plausibility.

Well , if the fire does apear as they say , then what you said would be problematic.
I think we need to differentiate from the priests performing the event and all of the believers coming to see it. The latter could be easily convinced what they saw was divine intervention even if it wasn't, so what they report or think they see doesn't really prove anything. If it isn't everything it is claimed to be, at least some of the priests would presumably need to be in on it, and essentially lying, though they could well internally justify or rationalise that to themselves (and their god).
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
Any source can be relevant, this was a question about expertise and, significantly, the approach to the question. Are we asking "What could be the causes of this phenomena?" or "Can you prove this isn't a miracle?".
No , i just want to find a rational answer , but it seems that the given evidence does not allow that.

If they wanted to prove it (or at least counter the counter-claims) via independent scientific means, they could easily take that step. They are in complete control of the place after all. Religions are rarely interested in proving their claims though, and often make specific statements against it (such as the "not testing God" concept).
I posted a video in the previous post, apperantly someone was interested and made the study.

Why did you choose to post it on a public forum then? You must have had some reason for creating this thread beyond anything that only matters to you.
Yes , i am interested in what people think about it.
It is in my answers , maybe you did not see it.

The possible mundane explanation is that some hidden source is used to light the initial flame (or some spontaneously flammable substance like phosphorous, which I saw suggested elsewhere).
Let's forget about how the flame is lighted.
Let's say for the sake of argument , it is naturally.
How do you explain the after effect?
It is unusual according to some of the sources that bother with scientific explenation.

It's also worth noting that it isn't automatically true that the same process has happened through all the years this has been done. For example, there could have been something unexplained the first time that the priests then artificially replicated.
How do you mean ? Can you explain ?

Again, none of this is about proving or disproving anything.
I am not arguing that

We're only at the point of what is possible and plausible at the moment. I think there are plausible mundane explanations for everything I'd seen and read about this.
Well yes , only if you look how to debunk it.

But if you look at the whole data it doesn't seem so.

"Miracle" isn't even an explanation, it just raises more questions, so without much more detail, that doesn't have anything like as much plausibility.
I don't have problem with raising more questions..

I think we need to differentiate from the priests performing the event and all of the believers coming to see it.
Ok , i agree

The latter could be easily convinced what they saw was divine intervention even if it wasn't, so what they report or think they see doesn't really prove anything.
So if you personally go there and notice that is unusual , will you not question it?
One man tells to his wife 'put it on your head and she is afraid.You can notice fear also..
The reaction is strange however.

If it isn't everything it is claimed to be,
Yes , probably we can agree on that
But there is weird and unusual staff going on.

at least some of the priests would presumably need to be in on it, and essentially lying, though they could well internally justify or rationalise that to themselves (and their god).
That is the main problem.
I have seen older evidence where one man claims to witness it 61 times.

The whole procces is weird to me in general.

Would like to witness it however to see for myself.
 

Ajax

Active Member
The case is closed. High priests admitted in front of a camera that the light lights from physical sources, and the Orthodox Patriarchate in Jerusalem changed the wording in their site from "miracle" to "ceremony".
The Patriarchate sued the journalist, but lost the case.
Turn on English or other subtitles if you want to watch the video please.


Part 2

 
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danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@danieldemol

Here is something that i found

Thanks, however in my view it is not written by skeptics and Russia is an Orthodox theocracy in which critics of the church are persecuted and subject to torture so I hope you will forgive my lack of confidence in their treatment of miracles.

Also in my view it seems clear from the language (paraphrasing) - the light emanates from the inner sanctum - that the Russian did not have all areas access anyway as he would presumably be standing outside the inner sanctum to see what emanates from it.

The only usefulness of this to me is that it suggests to me that the priests may be using an electric spark of some sort to light the initial candles (ever seen the blue light off an arc welder?).
 

nick.f

New Member
There was someone a few years ago on Greek tv who wrote a book to "prove" it was a scam. During an interview he had a candle on which he had put a chemical and it lit by itself a few moments later. Does it prove anything? So a human can make a candle light by itself and the Almighty God the creator of the universe is so weak that He can't light a candle? The people who ask for concrete evidence even if a miracle happens in front of them and with scientists present they will not believe. They will say it is somehow a scam. That they are seeing things. Jesus says in the story with Lazarus and the rich man even if someone is risen from the dead the rich man's brothers will not believe. With that miracle God doesn't want to show off. He sends a gift to those who believe.
 

Ajax

Active Member
There was someone a few years ago on Greek tv who wrote a book to "prove" it was a scam. During an interview he had a candle on which he had put a chemical and it lit by itself a few moments later. Does it prove anything? So a human can make a candle light by itself and the Almighty God the creator of the universe is so weak that He can't light a candle? The people who ask for concrete evidence even if a miracle happens in front of them and with scientists present they will not believe. They will say it is somehow a scam. That they are seeing things. Jesus says in the story with Lazarus and the rich man even if someone is risen from the dead the rich man's brothers will not believe. With that miracle God doesn't want to show off. He sends a gift to those who believe.
People don't ask for evidence anymore. From the moment the high priests responsible for the preparation of the light admitted that it is physical light and the Jerusalem Orthodox Patriarchate deleted the word "miracle" from their site and substituted it with "ceremony", I don't think there is any point for further discussion, or asking for evidence. Now we know what had been known for ages by the priests, regardless of what they were saying to the masses, mainly for financial purposes.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There was someone a few years ago on Greek tv who wrote a book to "prove" it was a scam. During an interview he had a candle on which he had put a chemical and it lit by itself a few moments later. Does it prove anything? So a human can make a candle light by itself and the Almighty God the creator of the universe is so weak that He can't light a candle? The people who ask for concrete evidence even if a miracle happens in front of them and with scientists present they will not believe. They will say it is somehow a scam. That they are seeing things. Jesus says in the story with Lazarus and the rich man even if someone is risen from the dead the rich man's brothers will not believe. With that miracle God doesn't want to show off. He sends a gift to those who believe.
This is why I brought up Occam's razor. I'm not making the claim that "God couldn't do it." I'm making the claim that if a natural explanation is possible, that there is no reason to suggest a supernatural explanation.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
I consider direct evidence as personal expirience.
The fire doesn't burn , then burns.

@Dimi95 I can relate with you about burn.

White light burns fire without actually catching things on fire, I would feel white light in my spirit heart, fire burn

I understand fire burn as spiritual food

I understand this as spiritual life

Our spirit feeds from white light who lives in all of us, then later I learn from @dybmh that shechina is vessel

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala watch me go all over the place here

@Dimi95 you too watch me go all over the place because

I drink white light yet I might not know all the __________

@Dimi95 @Bharat Jhunjhunwala no one is separated no one

I understand @Dimi95 about the burn and no it doesn't catch on fire, but it is fire burn, that's the food from light. Allah light, yes, Holy Spirit yes. Light. Light lives in all of us. yes.

I am finding a challenge when using these words because people are thinking light from sun no it's not, this is an actual light that can think and this light feeds us burn-fire yet nothing catches on fire

These words are spiritual words.

I allow God teach me how to feed from God in my situations
 
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River Sea

Well-Known Member
"Holy Fire, flame lit at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre on Holy Saturday, the Saturday before Easter, as calculated according to the Julian calendar. The paschal ritual takes place annually in Jerusalem, where it is conducted by the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem with the participation of the Armenian Patriarch of Jerusalem. The day of the ritual is referred to as Sabt al-Nūr (“Saturday of Light”) in Arabic, the primary language of the local Christian community.

On the afternoon of that Saturday, the Greek and Armenian hierarchs enter alone into the Edicule, which encloses the tomb in which Jesus was said to have been buried. The Edicule is then closed while the Greek patriarch kneels and prays inside. After some time, a glimmer of light flickers from inside the Edicule, followed moments later by the emergence of the patriarch with a bundle of candles that bear a flame in each hand. The patriarch then blesses the crowd before the flame is rapidly (and at times chaotically) distributed. The event bears similarities to the midnight lighting of the paschal candle in the Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition.

Delegations representing Eastern Orthodox countries carry the flame that same day to their home countries, where it is presented in cathedrals in time for the Easter service. It is also carried locally to cities in the West Bank and Israel with sizable Christian communities—such as Ramallah, Bethlehem, and Nazareth—where crowds gather with fanfare in the city centres to receive the flame.

Many celebrants over the centuries have attributed the lighting of the candles to a spontaneous spark that descends miraculously from heaven, a belief affirmed by many Eastern Orthodox Christians today. That interpretation is perpetuated by the theatrics of the event, which include the searching of the patriarch by civil authorities to demonstrate to observers that he is not carrying any means of combustion into the Edicule. Popular belief in the miraculous nature of the event stirred considerable controversy by the turn of the 11th century and may have been the reason al-Ḥākim bi-Amr Allāh, the Fatimid caliph, ordered the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in 1009. In 1100, months after the Crusaders arrived in Jerusalem and took control of the church, the Latin patriarch Daimbert led the ceremony but was unable to obtain the Holy Fire through miraculous means. The Holy Fire subsequently became a tool of polemic between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic clergy, and in 1238 Pope Gregory IX issued a papal bull denouncing the ritual as a fraud and forbidding the participation of Roman Catholic clergy in it."


The popular understanding is that the Patriarch of Jerusalem enters the edicule without any means to light the candle. He says a prayer, the candle lights on its own, and he brings the flame out to the faithful. For several minutes, the flame isn't hot, so it doesn't burn. You can hold it up to anything, and it won't ignite. However, after several minutes, it becomes hot like any other flame.That's what most eye-witnesses agree on.

There is so much conflicting information out there,even to me as Orthodox.
I've seen claims that the church never said the way the fire lights is a miracle. I've read articles that claimed it's a proven hoax. I've seen videos where people show that the fire doesn't burn them. I've seen an interview with a supposed Orthodox clergyman who said it was lit by artificial means, but then he also later called it a miracle. I've seen a video where there are flashes of light and candles lit as it passes over them. I've read about people's experiences after they've been there themselves. Yet, I'm still not sure what's going on.

Something miraculous does happen, of that I'm sure, but past that, it's not so clear.

Is the miracle that the flame lights on its own?
Is it that the nature of the flame is different than regular fire (it has been demonstrated that the flame doesn't burn for several minutes)?
Is it what happens among the faithful?
Is it something else?

@Dimi95

I was thinking of light that feeds fire

The fire doesn't actually catch things on fire, but the light feeds fire that burns and that's spiritual food

These people are lighting candles for before easter. So they're... with. light are?

Question did they actually eat Jesus' body because Jesus' body was kosher meat same what Jews did to sheep before eating the meat. Drain the blood and when sacrificing to get rid of God's anger. Drain Jesus blood and when sacrificing to get rid of God's anger then eat the meat.

I'm not sure why the people drank Jesus' blood because I don't think people drank sheep blood.

Did the people drink Jesus' blood too?

Because how come people have communion, claiming eating Jesus as kosher meat and drinking the blood before Jesus became kosher meat. Jesus basically did what a sheep did. Am I understanding correctly?

How come God wants kosher meat for? Could God take anger management classes for a better way of how to handle his anger challenges? Maybe some counselling might help God with his anger challenges?

What is anger, is that desires for what?
 
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