The Holy Spirit

[kylixguru]

You seem to have some issue with our current prophet, and are therefore assuming things about what others are and are not asking for, and in how they are asking to justify to yourself why so many people are having Spiritual confirmations about someone you personally disagree with.

The principle I am advocating helps people to realize they should not make any assumptions.
If you ask God to give you a witness that Thomas S. Monson is His Lord's Anointed, embedded within that request is the assumption that he is such.

If he is such and you ask for God to give you a witness if and only if he is such, you will get a witness.
If he is not such and you ask for God to give you a witness if and only if he is such, you will not get a witness.

Which is the manner of asking for a witness that will not endanger yourself?

And, when you ask, you truly need to be open to the possibility that he isn't.
If you are able to do this, and the witness comes, then your witness is sure.
Otherwise, you could be getting a false witness based on a desire to just fit in.

Like I said, I am a convert - just FYI, I did not ask, or want, the spiritual experience I was given. I went to the LDS church in order to fulfill an assignment for a college class, not to join any church... but I ended up joining the church. I repeat, I did not ask to receive a witness, God was not catering to any personal wishes on my part - Mine is more of a Saul/Paul conversion story, or the story of Alma the younger.

And I believe it was of God and that you are where you should be.
I am not trying to tear down anything that is good and of God.
I'm simply touching upon things that many people don't pay much mind to that can lead them into spiritually dangerous territory.

Personally, there have been many things that I have asked for, and received an answer of "no". We do not always get what we ask for. There are false Spirits out there that can lead you astray, but the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Truth, will never lead anyone astray. Asking for things that are amiss will usually just get you the silent treatment - I suppose if you are really stubborn, yes, God will give you what you want, but will give it with a warning (the story of how Joseph lost the manuscripts - he kept asking, even when he knew what the answer was - he bugged God until he got what he wanted, but after the first two answers, I think he knew his request was amiss...)

That's a perfect example of what I am talking about.
People can bug God about things and in so doing harm themselves.
Leaders in offices of authority can also bring harm in the same manner.
This is why the body of members has the right and responsibility to sustain or object.

In any event, I have faith that the LDS church - though it is made of imperfect people - is being led by God. I feel the spirit with our local leaders, and I feel the spirit during general conference. Hinckley was a prophet of temples, Monson is a prophet of taking care of the poor. I think the current direction the church is heading is inspired and matches the needs of what is happening in the world today.

The scriptures make it clear that a person can do all kinds of good and perform many mighty miracles in the Lord's name and yet in the end be called to the carpet for their iniquities and be told to depart.

The understanding I have is that we must be careful at all times to perform our duty to sustain or object, as we are guided by the Holy Spirit. This means to me that at some point when you feel you are ready, and anyone who holds the Melchizedek Priesthood should be, to be willing to look underneath what could just be a sheep's cloak. If you are unwilling to look for such, then you shall never have eyes to see such.

 

[idea]

Well, I don't hold the Melchizedek priesthood (I'm a female , and I agree about being careful for what you ask for - I always end any request with "not my will, but thine be done." and often ask for correction where correction is needed.

I admit, I take the "innocent until proven guilty" route with people. If someone makes some strange bizarre request, then of coarse I would question it - but I have never had any strange requests from anyone in the church. The only things I have ever been asked to do are callings, temple work, etc. etc.

 

[kylixguru]

Well, I don't hold the Melchizedek priesthood (I'm a female , and I agree about being careful for what you ask for - I always end any request with "not my will, but thine be done." and often ask for correction where correction is needed.

That's a very important factor to keep an eye on.
If you listen closely, I regularly discern people making assumptions that are not wise.

I admit, I take the "innocent until proven guilty" route with people. If someone makes some strange bizarre request, then of coarse I would question it - but I have never had any strange requests from anyone in the church. The only things I have ever been asked to do are callings, temple work, etc. etc.

That's good to know. My intent wasn't to do anything more than give an answer to your thread, not to accuse. I use that example because contrary to what most LDS think, the president of the church is subject to error just as anyone else is. You may want to read D&C 107. Pay close attention to verses 22, 81-84 and 99. (I could be off a verse or two) These verses make it clear that "the programme" the Lord has established such that the leader shall never lead the church astray is that the members are supposed to have the Spirit too such that they will say "no" if the need ever becomes necessary. If it did become necessary and they don't do so, then they are all going astray together. "There is none who are exempt."

Hopefully others will contribute to your thread here as well.

 

[idea]

... the leader shall never lead the church astray ....

I've felt the Spirit for personal guidance, but if there ever came a time where I disagreed with the Prophet, I don't know, that would be like disagreeing with Einstein or something. I recognize that there are some who are much closer, and carry the Spirit more strongly than others, you can feel the Spirit when you are around them, and the prophet is one of those people. I'm not nearly to the level of understanding that he has, and I would question myself before I questioned an expert.

This is a good chapter: Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith Chapter 27: Beware the Bitter Fruits of Apostasy

Orson Hyde, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, reported: “Joseph the Prophet … said, ‘Brethren, remember that the majority of this people will never go astray

William G. Nelson reported: “I have heard the Prophet speak in public on many occasions. In one meeting I heard him say: ‘I will give you a key that will never rust,—if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.’ The history of the Church has proven this to be true.”

Etc. etc.

I understand that it is good to have your own testimony, and your own witness, but it is also good to learn how to be a humble follower... as a female, I have studied what it means to be a follower, "the greatest among you shall be your servant", that it's not about being in front of others - or to be debating with others - it's about being "with" others. Being with others demands a sacrifice of personal desires for the good of the group - my job is not to be the leader, it's not up to me to dictate policy for the whole church - my job is to be with people, not in front of them.

From a RS lesson I taught:

we are called to belong, not just to believe.

I resisted it’s exertions (NavalAcademy) fearing its effects on my individuality. But as a POW I learned that a shared purpose did not claim my identity. On the contrary, it enlarged my sense of myself.– (McCain, Faith of my Fathers)


be determined in one mind and in one heart, united in all things, that ye may not come down into captivity; - (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi1:21)


A heart outside of the body is not worth much. Worth comes when the heart comes within the body and starts pumping blood….It is when we lose ourselves– allow ourselves to be completely taken over by the body, that we find our true worth…

The experience of being united with others - in one heart, and one mind - under the right banner, is an unparalleled experience... where two or three are gathered together, it's important to learn how to really gather together, not just physically sit in the same room as others, but to really be there together "with" them - you have to have trust and faith to experience what "together" means.... I enjoy being together "with" people, and to gain this experience, I am willing to look past the faults of others...

I have felt the Spirit on my own, I have also felt it within gatherings... Those who have trouble feeling the Spirit on their own, my advice is to come to a place where two or three Spiritual people are gathered together - you can feel what surrounds them.

 

[idea]

OK - for everyone else out there of all faiths, how do you describe what the presence of the Spirit feels like?

I personally had not really felt the Spirit before my Mormon experience, however I do not think that Mormons have a monopoly on feeling the Spirit. I used to think that when people said "they felt the Spirit" they were just being poetic, or that it was just one of those saying like saying "I feel happy", or "I feel like going outside for some peaceful meditation" or something. I didn't know what everyone was talking about until I had my first spiritual experience - quite frankly, my first experience scared the hell out of me (pun intended). Look up "fear not" in the scriptures, apparently I'm not the only one who found it a bit freaky the first go around - but then it was a reality shifting experience... you think spirituality is just some poetic parable to play with in your mind, and then you experience the Spirit - and it all shifts from just being a poem, to being something that is very real, and that changes everything.

So I guess the point of this thread is to let people who have not yet experienced the Spirit to come to an awareness that it exists, and that you really can receive a witness of Christ - and for those who do understand what I am talking about, to share your experiences too, so that everyone can gain a better understanding of what the Spirit is (a real entity that can communicate with you through feelings, thoughts, and sometimes even words), what the Spirit does (bears witness of our Heavenly Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, brings comfort, peace, guidance, warning), and how to get in touch with the Spirit (prayer, study, and above all - to be willing to listen with the intent of obeying - to listen with faith and trust in the being who wants to help you with direction - otherwise there is no point in talking to you etc. etc.)

There are many in the LDS faith who will talk your ear off about the Spirit, I want to hear from others too.

 

[Muffled]

...And I thought the Paraclete was what took care of you until the real Clete arrived...

You do know the source: ecclesia. So the fact is that "Clete" arrived a long time before me. I tend to personalize it but no doubt it is community.

 

[Noya]

John 7:38
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

 

[Muffled]

OK - for everyone else out there of all faiths, how do you describe what the presence of the Spirit feels like?

I personally had not really felt the Spirit before my Mormon experience, however I do not think that Mormons have a monopoly on feeling the Spirit. I used to think that when people said "they felt the Spirit" they were just being poetic, or that it was just one of those saying like saying "I feel happy", or "I feel like going outside for some peaceful meditation" or something. I didn't know what everyone was talking about until I had my first spiritual experience - quite frankly, my first experience scared the hell out of me (pun intended). Look up "fear not" in the scriptures, apparently I'm not the only one who found it a bit freaky the first go around - but then it was a reality shifting experience... you think spirituality is just some poetic parable to play with in your mind, and then you experience the Spirit - and it all shifts from just being a poem, to being something that is very real, and that changes everything.

So I guess the point of this thread is to let people who have not yet experienced the Spirit to come to an awareness that it exists, and that you really can receive a witness of Christ - and for those who do understand what I am talking about, to share your experiences too, so that everyone can gain a better understanding of what the Spirit is (a real entity that can communicate with you through feelings, thoughts, and sometimes even words), what the Spirit does (bears witness of our Heavenly Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, brings comfort, peace, guidance, warning), and how to get in touch with the Spirit (prayer, study, and above all - to be willing to listen with the intent of obeying - to listen with faith and trust in the being who wants to help you with direction - otherwise there is no point in talking to you etc. etc.)

There are many in the LDS faith who will talk your ear off about the Spirit, I want to hear from others too.

When I received Jesus the feelings were of peace and love. Now there is more of an inner peace, love and joy.