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The Homosexuals Of Alderaan Want Your Children

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Junglej25 said:
You're suggesting it's possible that certain.......verses in Romans might be inspired but others may not. Right?

Yes, at least partly. I do not believe that a God inspired any of the Bible, but for the sake of argument, if he inspired and preserved parts of the Bible, what evidence do you have that he inspired and preserved the parts about homosexuality?
 
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McBell

Admiral Obvious
Is God so small that he can't satisfy someone with homosexual inclinations?
Seems that god just keeps getting smaller and smaller.
Perhaps he should step up and actually do something for himself instead of hoping that his followers will get it right....
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
For one, I look at the fruit that the message produces. If everybody actually lived out the message this world would literally be Heaven.
Apart from the infrastructure problems, wealth disparities, and natural disasters, among other things.
 
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Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
For one, I look at the fruit that the message produces. If everybody actually lived out the message this world would literally be Heaven.

No world could be remotely close to a "heaven" without being with my lover. That lover happens to be a woman. So what do you say about that?

I made two posts with what I felt were strong points, and either I missed your responses to them or you haven't formulated them yet. I'm still interested in seeing what you think about them.
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
From the Christian perspectice, it's only a lack of faith that would cause one to worry about how they'll be satisfied. Is God so small that he can't satisfy someone with homosexual inclinations? FWIW, the most amazing experiences of deliverance, by what I believed was the hand of God, came in moments where all hope appeared to be lost
I have no faith in your God because when I did feel like all hope was lost and was losing faith, despite wanting to believe I felt nothing. The hand of God must not reach out equally.

Is God so small he can't satisfy someone with heterosexual inclinations? Your statement doesn't make much sense. I presume you think everyone should act the same, you said that if everyone followed it, it would be heaven.

Are you saying then that no one should get married and everyone should be celibate? Or are you advocating the chastity that your faith actually promotes?

If the former, then do you live by this standard? If the latter, then do you recognize that many gay and lesbian people have tried this and been desperately unhappy? They often tried it because they believed so strongly in Christianity that they felt they had to, but it didn't 'satisfy' them.

You didn't address the fact that you are absolutely free to live as you choose, but that in forcing civil laws on others who don't believe the same as you, you are practicing oppression, just as early Christians were oppressed for being monotheists - practically atheists - by the Romans. If it was wrong for the Romans to punish Christians for not worshiping the right gods and acting accordingly, then it is wrong for Christians to try and force non-Christians to act in accord to their god.
 

Aniihya

Game is tasty.
I think it is alright since most star wars fans nowadays are adults. I have no problem with homosexuals. I find sexual reassignment immoral but since I value personal freedom, it is the decision of the individual.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I think it is alright since most star wars fans nowadays are adults. I have no problem with homosexuals. I find sexual reassignment immoral but since I value personal freedom, it is the decision of the individual.

Out of curiosity, what about sexual reassignment has moral connotations?
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
I think all Christians go through phases like this. The Christian God makes a lot of lavish promises but he also promises harship and moments where one's faith will be severely tested. Keep in mind that God took Job's children from him and everything he owned in a test of faith. How would you respond to that? Everything Job saw in that moment probably told him him that God was a million miles away. He didn't have the perspective to see that despite the appearance, God was completely in control. My statement about homosexual inclinations makes complete sense in light of the fact that you did not see how a gay person could be happy living the Christian God's commands considering he only permits heterosexual marriage. I am saying that I believe God scoffs at such "obstacles". As far as how he would satisfy someone with homosexual inclinations, who am I to speculate? FWIW, I've heard of Christians praying that their orientation would be changed and that their prayer was answered. Regardless of the circumstance, Christians are called to aways find their joy in the Lord.


James 2-4: "2Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Phillipians 4: "12I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. 13I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. 14Nevertheless, you have done well to share with me in my affliction. "

I have no faith in your God because when I did feel like all hope was lost and was losing faith, despite wanting to believe I felt nothing. The hand of God must not reach out equally.

Is God so small he can't satisfy someone with heterosexual inclinations? Your statement doesn't make much sense. I presume you think everyone should act the same, you said that if everyone followed it, it would be heaven.
Are you saying then that no one should get married and everyone should be celibate? Or are you advocating the chastity that your faith actually promotes?

If the former, then do you live by this standard? If the latter, then do you recognize that many gay and lesbian people have tried this and been desperately unhappy? They often tried it because they believed so strongly in Christianity that they felt they had to, but it didn't 'satisfy' them.

You didn't address the fact that you are absolutely free to live as you choose, but that in forcing civil laws on others who don't believe the same as you, you are practicing oppression, just as early Christians were oppressed for being monotheists - practically atheists - by the Romans. If it was wrong for the Romans to punish Christians for not worshiping the right gods and acting accordingly, then it is wrong for Christians to try and force non-Christians to act in accord to their god.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
No world could be remotely close to a "heaven" without being with my lover. That lover happens to be a woman. So what do you say about that?

I made two posts with what I felt were strong points, and either I missed your responses to them or you haven't formulated them yet. I'm still interested in seeing what you think about them.


I did read those two posts. You made the accusation that tests regarding the homosexual lifestyle were being conducted without integrity such as taking samples outside of gay bars and clinics. Are there probably studies being used by both sides of the argument to support their position which suffer from poor methodology? Probably. Does that necessarily apply to every test? That''s a different question. This is what both sides of the debate accuse the other of doing with studies. It's exactly what those who oppose gay adoptions say about the tests that allegedly prove that kids raised in gay homes end up the same as anyone else. One side is just not being honest in this debate. You also gave a personal testimony. As far as that goes, there's not much I can say. If that's your experience, then that's your experience. But I do wonder if you've lived long enough to really get an accurate picture of the effect the behavior will have on you. Usually, things that are destructive eat away at us slowly.
 

Aniihya

Game is tasty.
Meow Mix: MtF and FtM reassignments. I somehow dont have a problem with transvestism and M/FtI reassignment.

But I think gender reassignment for intersexed infants should be banned since it later on causes psychological problems.

It is everybody's choice what they want to do with their body, because its personal freedom and personal freedom shouldn't be regulated.
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
I did read those two posts. You made the accusation that tests regarding the homosexual lifestyle were being conducted without integrity such as taking samples outside of gay bars and clinics. Are there probably studies being used by both sides of the argument to support their position which suffer from poor methodology? Probably. Does that necessarily apply to every test? That''s a different question. This is what both sides of the debate accuse the other of doing with studies. It's exactly what those who oppose gay adoptions say about the tests that allegedly prove that kids raised in gay homes end up the same as anyone else. One side is just not being honest in this debate. You also gave a personal testimony. As far as that goes, there's not much I can say. If that's your experience, then that's your experience. But I do wonder if you've lived long enough to really get an accurate picture of the effect the behavior will have on you. Usually, things that are destructive eat away at us slowly.
Your argument here is "Both sides lie, so I'll believe my side." Which doesn't make a lot of sense. If you were staying neutral I'd understand but you're not. If you don't trust the authorities in the field, like the APA and the AMA, then would you even go see a doctor? I mean you're being awfully selective in your sources that you will accept - that is you'll take Dailey but not the American Psychological Association on matters of psychology and research. That doesn't make sense to me.


I think all Christians go through phases like this. The Christian God makes a lot of lavish promises but he also promises harship and moments where one's faith will be severely tested. Keep in mind that God took Job's children from him and everything he owned in a test of faith.
In a deal with the devil no less. That's always been a really stupid chapter in my opinion.

I'm sure many people go through crises of faith. Many people come through them stronger, but your assumptions that faith in your god will necessarily win out is not true. You can't claim that God always provides X, when X isn't provided. You can claim that God's plan is unknown to you, but that means you have to stop claiming to know his will. Perhaps his will is for you to learn from those of us who speak the truth to you and stop pushing for the oppression.

How would you respond to that? Everything Job saw in that moment probably told him him that God was a million miles away. He didn't have the perspective to see that despite the appearance, God was completely in control.
Right, which is why it was an awfully cruel thing for God to do, in control as he was. I didn't lose faith due to the death of anyone I loved, I simply stopped believing, despite the fact I'd still like to believe in something.

My statement about homosexual inclinations makes complete sense in light of the fact that you did not see how a gay person could be happy living the Christian God's commands considering he only permits heterosexual marriage.
I'm stating that gay people are already living this way and are unhappy. So what are they doing wrong? They marry, remain chaste by only having sex within their marriage, and are deeply unhappy. Some finally come out and divorce, some cheat on their spouses, some commit suicide, some just live their lives unhappily. There are thousands of gay Christians who would love to be 'fulfilled' and they typically only are when they accept their sexuality and live accordingly. So where is the satisfaction.

But see, the other thing here is that you're still trying to impose your beliefs on people who do not believe as you do.
I am saying that I believe God scoffs at such "obstacles". As far as how he would satisfy someone with homosexual inclinations, who am I to speculate?
Yet you claim to know how God does so many other things. Again, why impose your beliefs on those who don't believe as you do?
FWIW, I've heard of Christians praying that their orientation would be changed and that their prayer was answered. Regardless of the circumstance, Christians are called to aways find their joy in the Lord.
So those who have prayed the same thing and not been changed didn't pray hard enough? Prayer would be the only way that such a thing could have happened as therapy is shown not to work and in fact to do significant harm to the person. Suicide is a side effect, in fact.

But all of this aside, you ignore that by pushing to have the LAW reflect your beliefs, you're oppressing people who are not your variety of Christian. What is the reason that civil marriages cannot be legal for gays and lesbians with NO expectation that churches that oppose this would be imposed upon? This would allow the churches that support same sex marriage to exercise their own beliefs.

Do you really support laws that would oppress the beliefs of another faith? Doesn't that just open up the opportunity for another Christian denomination to oppress yours?

Please actually answer the questions I asked if you're going to respond. I asked you very specific questions in the last post that you glossed over.


Meow Mix: MtF and FtM reassignments. I somehow dont have a problem with transvestism and M/FtI reassignment.

But I think gender reassignment for intersexed infants should be banned since it later on causes psychological problems.

It is everybody's choice what they want to do with their body, because its personal freedom and personal freedom shouldn't be regulated.

I agree with you :) This is also best practices these days.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
I probably went too far when I said both sides would lie. That's pretty judgemental. I do suspect that one side in this debate side is lying. As I've said before, I doubt we'd see such mixed messages from the "scientific" community if things like sex, identity, and faith didn't hang in the balance. Moral issues tend to create alot of confusion among the "scienfic" community. As far as the APA goes, their judgements seem to conveniently support whatever is politically most correct. Keep in mind these organizations did a 180 in the 70s when homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder. This sudden change of heart happened to occur just as the gay rights movement was starting to put pressure on them. Coincidence? It's definately suspicious. This issue is not about religious freedom. It's about truth. What is the truth about this lifestyle and its affects on both its practitioners and on the children they might take care of? If this lifestyle is actually harmful, then you have no right to f*** with the heads of children that you might take care of.


Your argument here is "Both sides lie, so I'll believe my side." Which doesn't make a lot of sense. If you were staying neutral I'd understand but you're not. If you don't trust the authorities in the field, like the APA and the AMA, then would you even go see a doctor? I mean you're being awfully selective in your sources that you will accept - that is you'll take Dailey but not the American Psychological Association on matters of psychology and research. That doesn't make sense to me.


.
 
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Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
I probably went too far when I said both sides would lie. That's pretty judgemental. I do suspect that one side in this debate side is lying. As I've said before, I doubt we'd see such mixed messages from the "scientific" community if things like sex, identity, and faith didn't hang in the balance. As far as the APA goes, their judgements seem to conveniently support whatever is politically most correct. Keep in mind these organizations did a 180 in the 70s when homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder. This sudden change of heart happened to occur just as the gay rights movement was starting to put pressure on them. Coincidence? It's definately suspicious. This issue is not about religious freedom. It's about truth. What is the truth about this lifestyle and its affects on both its practitioners and on the children they might take care of?
So now it's "one side is lying and I'm pretty sure it's not my side, the other side looks really shifty."

Do you know anything about the APA vote? It wasn't a suspicious 180, the people who were there can tell you about it. Read the stories of the people who were actually there, listen to the This American Life episode on the matter, something rather than the "I've heard..." that just reads like conspiracy mongering.. what is the truth about 9/11, convenient that everyone died in the planes so they couldn't tell us after all.

You ignored again the point that you're imposing your religious beliefs on others and avoiding the question whether you think this is acceptable.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
If a God opposes homosexuality, it is quite odd that he forces over 1500 species of animals and birds to practice homosexuality, and forces almost all bonobo monkeys to be bi-sexual.

It is not especially odd at all.

Homosexuality is just a programming malfunction in the DNA so it is just as likely to occur in an animal.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
Message to nnmartin: If you had a teenage son who was 18 years old, and he told you that he was a homosexual, how would you respond to him? What would you tell him?

I would tell him to go out and enjoy himself but to prepare for the fact that he would be unlikely to ever enjoy the pleasures of having his own children unless he found a way around it.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
That is why we encourage you to live as you like, but to stop forcing your beliefs about heaven into our civil laws. We will not stop you from chastity, just stop forcing us to be the same way.

You are the ones trying to force your agenda onto the mainstream though.

You are the ones trying to denigrate the sanctity of marriage to fit your agenda.

Since when was marriage created for man to marry man?
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Not surprisingly, there are probably different versions of that story as well. I heard the story where gay activists would storm into their meetings uninvited unleashing angry tirades. They went about trying to gain support by likening their struggle to that of the black man and many were sold on their argument. It was in this climate that the APA changed their opinion. I editted the last post to make it a little clearer. I hope it answers your question about religious impositions

So now it's "one side is lying and I'm pretty sure it's not my side, the other side looks really shifty."

Do you know anything about the APA vote? It wasn't a suspicious 180, the people who were there can tell you about it. Read the stories of the people who were actually there, listen to the This American Life episode on the matter, something rather than the "I've heard..." that just reads like conspiracy mongering.. what is the truth about 9/11, convenient that everyone died in the planes so they couldn't tell us after all.

You ignored again the point that you're imposing your religious beliefs on others and avoiding the question whether you think this is acceptable.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
You are the ones trying to force your agenda onto the mainstream though.

You are the ones trying to denigrate the sanctity of marriage to fit your agenda.

Since when was marriage created for man to marry man?

Since when was you opinion worth more than the rights of anyone else? I'll answer for you: Never.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
You are the one who thinks:

1. Father and daughter having sex is fine.

2. Same-sex incestuous marriage and adoption is fine. (between brother and sister)

I would give you a morality rating of 0/10.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
You are the one who thinks:

1. Father and daughter having sex is fine.

2. Same-sex incestuous marriage and adoption is fine. (between brother and sister)

I would give you a morality rating of 0/10.
As if anyone thinks what you think of another persons morality matters...
You sure are arrogant in your judging of others.
 
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