There is no denying that Evolution is a concept that is a widely held scientific principle. Schools all over the world have been teaching it for decades. It has been ingrained into the scientific mind as a universal truth. Yet, there is a distinct lack in archeological evidence of natural selection. Indeed, the fossil record shows a fragmented view, at best. It seems that Evolution has been replaced with creationism in the classrooms because it fits the scientific mold better. Seemingly, the goal of the scientific community has been to completely remove God from the picture and/or debunk any involvement of intelligent design. It seems a bit strange to me that there appears to be less empirical evidence of Evolution than there is of intelligent design. Have said all this, I would like to see what is everyone's view on the subject. Please, let's not have any ridiculing statements, but as much factual information and/or evidence as is relevant.
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The Hypocrisy of Evolution
- Thread starter daguit
- Start date
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
That's not true. There's about 500,000 fossils on record today.
Not at all. It doesn't have complete records of most species, that's true, but it has almost complete for several species, so we know that species do evolve since they did. The ones we have are trilobites, horse, and whales. They're fairly complete. Kind'a like the snapshots in a 30-sec movie roll that creates a motion picture. Each picture is a small difference from the other, and played together, you can see how the small changes become large changes from point A to point B.
No. The goal of the scientific community has not been to completely remove God from the picture. In science, yes, God is removed, but it's not about removing God from society or people's beliefs. There are plenty of believing scientists who fully support evolution. It's not a matter of evolution vs God, but rather, what and how did God do it. How did God create life? According to evolutionary theists, evolution is the method with which God did it.
Uh. What? That's most definitely not true. There's truckloads of empirical evidence for evolution. There are genetic evidence like transposons, ERVs, and more, and the fossil record is a lot better than you think, and you can actually trace hereditary traits in the bones of the fossils. There's literally no evidence at all for intelligent design. None. Also, evolution has been seen, observed, and recorded in modern time. Take plastic eating bacteria (last 20 years), BT resistant root worms (in less than 10 years), lizards developing pockets in their stomachs (in 40 years or so), or how the longest running experiment shows that E. coli can develop irreducible complex genetic code to use citric acid as food.
Take a look at the some 2,000 fossils we have of human evolution, all the way from Australopithecus to Homo, and how the suborbital constriction, dental arcade, skull size and shape, foramen magnum, and many other changed from the first bipedals some million years ago until now. If you really start to look at them and hold them in your hands and measure and compare... you'll be astonished by how we have changed as a species, from a very ape-like creature to modern human. Even archaic H.s. is different than modern.
We have the entire fossil record that shows the transitioning of the Manatee from a land-dwelling ungulate to a sea-dwelling ungulate. The whole thing. You can see clearly how it changes.
Do not assume that just because you are ignorant(as in, genuinely unaware) of information that it does not exist.
I have to agree with Ouroboros, daguit. There is overwhelming evidence of evolution from multiple scientific disciplines. On the other hand, there is NO evidence for ID -- none!
I challenge you to present any.
As for a scientific conspiracy against God, that's just silly. Science has no interest in God, pro or con - unless He appears as a measurable force in some operation.
I'm sorry if science is upsetting you by finding natural explanations for phenomena you'd prefer to attribute to magic, but, seriously - you're just flinging poo.
I challenge you to present any.
As for a scientific conspiracy against God, that's just silly. Science has no interest in God, pro or con - unless He appears as a measurable force in some operation.
I'm sorry if science is upsetting you by finding natural explanations for phenomena you'd prefer to attribute to magic, but, seriously - you're just flinging poo.
Skwim
Veteran Member
In order of increasingly detailed explanations.
I invite you to look at, at least the first two explanations.
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[QUOTE="Skwim, post: 4150194, In order of increasingly detailed explanations.
What is Evolution? #1"
"evolution" is the process by which an organism becomes more sophisticated over time and in response to its environment.
"in-depth analysis of evolution raises doubts that the scientific community is hard pressed to answer. Evolution has never been fundamentally proven, and most scientists admit as much."
What is Evolution? #2
"BioLogos sees evolution as a description of how God created all life"
What is Evolution? #3
Better, though rather simplistic, in places.
What is Evolution? #4
I invite you to look at, at least the first three explanations.[/QUOTE]
I'd skip at least the first one.
What is Evolution? #1"
"evolution" is the process by which an organism becomes more sophisticated over time and in response to its environment.
"in-depth analysis of evolution raises doubts that the scientific community is hard pressed to answer. Evolution has never been fundamentally proven, and most scientists admit as much."
What is Evolution? #2
"BioLogos sees evolution as a description of how God created all life"
What is Evolution? #3
Better, though rather simplistic, in places.
What is Evolution? #4
I'd skip at least the first one.
Last edited by a moderator:
First of all, my apologies for the feeble attempt at analogizing with a conspiracy theory. There is plenty of evidence as to the validity of Evolutionary theory mentioned in previous posts, but it is not infallible or unquestionable evidence. Consider the following:
1. What seems to be what people like to call evolution, should really be called mutation.
The only observation we have been able to make is how bacteria remain as bacteria, and any other beings remain as basically their same respective being.
2. If you were to quantify in terms of probabilities a natural order or selection to outdo or outperform a designed order or selection, the scale would most undoubtedly be heavy on the design end.
In other words, a designed order or selection would likely be the most successful and thereby most probable cause for the existence of life.
3. The probability of life created by chance is infinitesimally small, and not observable or capable of being observed.
Yet, we (homo sapiens) as a collective intelligence, have the potential to develop the technology - even the ability to create a living organism and/or life form.
1. What seems to be what people like to call evolution, should really be called mutation.
The only observation we have been able to make is how bacteria remain as bacteria, and any other beings remain as basically their same respective being.
2. If you were to quantify in terms of probabilities a natural order or selection to outdo or outperform a designed order or selection, the scale would most undoubtedly be heavy on the design end.
In other words, a designed order or selection would likely be the most successful and thereby most probable cause for the existence of life.
3. The probability of life created by chance is infinitesimally small, and not observable or capable of being observed.
Yet, we (homo sapiens) as a collective intelligence, have the potential to develop the technology - even the ability to create a living organism and/or life form.
Whatever sources you are using, they are either a few decades outdated or simply biased as hell.
Skwim
Veteran Member
My big mistake in posting that sucker without first reading it.
Aarrrgh! Creationism is written all over it. Live and learn, *SIGH*
Yeah, evolution isn't concerned with the creation of first life, just the creation of its diversity.
Have you miraculously found the "Missing Link"? Please enlighten us.
You have just underscored my impression. The "missing link" is not a serious argument, and has not been for decades.
For that matter, if you think the fossil record is even needed for the evidence of evolution currently available to be convincing... then you are badly out of date as well.
For a bit of an explanation about why it is pointless to talk about a missing link, try these:
Newly found fossils could link to human ancestor - Technology & Science - CBC News
Darwinius: It delivers a pizza, and it lengthens, and it strengthens, and it finds that slipper that's been at large under the chaise lounge for several weeks… : The Loom
For more about the available evidence:
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent
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Bunyip
pro scapegoat
How can there even be empirical evidence of Intelligent design? The ID movement has never even claimed to have a testable hypothesis, let alone empirical evidence.
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Uhmm... mutations is a huge part of the evolutionary theory. I don't know why the whole evolution should be called evolution. It's like calling a car just metal plates.
In modern time, yes, except... ring species. Currently living species that are in the ring compatible, but at the ends not, and in effect showing how one species can go through speciation (the events of splitting up into two new species). I mean, it's documented and observed.
Evolutionary antenna? You don't know about that one? Or oil pipeline flow control systems? And there are many other examples. Or that now, the medical companies are starting to aim for using evolutionary methods to evolve new medicines. But hey, maybe you can tell them they're wrong and should stop because you know better than them...
Mutation -> selection -> species.
Or the probability is extremely high, as one mathematician recently suggests. I can find the article later, if you're interested. It was in some science magazine.
The fact is that we have found amino acids in space, and sugar (one critical component in DNA), and other organic material. Also lipids. Oh, and it was recently discovered that single cells can evolve to multicellular, and also non-organic can develop metabolism, on its own!
And? You mean the recently synthetic DNA or the synthetic bacteria or the evolutionary computer chip? Which one is it that we haven't done yet?
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Probably outdates. It sounds a bit like a Gish gallop coming on here soon, or the master Ken Hovind the tax fraudster.
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
Daguit
You said that the probability of life forming by chance is infinitessimally small - can you show the math, or did you just make that up?
Also how does this figure compare with the calculation you must have for the probability of Yahweh forming by chance? Is the probability of Yahweh forming by chance substantially more or less likely?
You said that the probability of life forming by chance is infinitessimally small - can you show the math, or did you just make that up?
Also how does this figure compare with the calculation you must have for the probability of Yahweh forming by chance? Is the probability of Yahweh forming by chance substantially more or less likely?
Sapiens
Polymathematician
True.
Archeology does not look for evolutionary evidence, perhaps that accounts for the lack?
Since the geological record is fragmented, that is only natural.
No, creationism has been thrown out of the classroom on it's ear every time.
No, the goal of the scientific community is to keep the supernatural (of any ilk) out of the science classroom, ID has been clearly (and legally) defined as religion, part of that supernatural world that does not belong in a science classroom.
That is incorrect. Go study a bit and try again.
Fact: ID is warmed over creationism (see Dover decision).
Fact: Creationism has been fully falsified (In many ways, my favorites are a casual examination of the enervation of the giraffe's larynx and the requirement that rabbits eat their own feces to be able to survive).
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shawn001
Well-Known Member
The title of your post is
"The Hypocrisy of Evolution"
What!!!
"
JUDGE JOHN E. JONES, III: Both defendants and many of the leading proponents of intelligent design make a bedrock assumption which is utterly false. Their presupposition is that evolutionary theory is antithetical to a belief in the existence of a supreme being and to religion in general.
To be sure, Darwin's theory of evolution is imperfect. However, the fact that a scientific theory cannot yet render an explanation on every point should not be used as a pretext to thrust an untestable alternative hypothesis, grounded in religion, into the science classroom or to misrepresent well-established scientific propositions. The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the intelligent design policy.
NARRATOR: Citing what he called the "breathtaking inanity" of the school board's decision, he found that several members had lied "to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the intelligent design policy."
JUDGE JOHN E. JONES, III: The crushing weight of the evidence indicates that the board set out to get creationism into science classrooms, and intelligent design was simply the vehicle that they utilized to do that.
NARRATOR: Jones recommended to the U.S. Attorney that he investigate bringing perjury charges against Buckingham and Bonsell for lying under oath. And "the overwhelming evidence at trial," he said, "established that intelligent design is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.""
NOVA | Intelligent Design on Trial
JUDGE JOHN E. JONES, III: In an era where we're trying to cure cancer, where we're trying to prevent pandemics, where were trying to keep science and math education on the cutting edge in the United States, to introduce and teach bad science to ninth-grade students makesvery little sense to me. You know, garbage in garbage out. And it doesn't benefit any of us who benefit daily from scientific discoveries.
NOVA | Intelligent Design on Trial
The empirical evidence of Evolution is overwhelming. The evidence is also not just from the fossil record, but the entire history of the Earth.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
Evidence of Evolution
Scientists have discovered a wealth of evidence concerning human evolution, and this evidence comes in many forms. Thousands of human fossils enable researchers and students to study the changes that occurred in brain and body size, locomotion, diet, and other aspects regarding the way of life of early human species over the past 6 million years. Millions of stone tools, figurines and paintings, footprints, and other traces of human behavior in the prehistoric record tell about where and how early humans lived and when certain technological innovations were invented. Study of human genetics show how closely related we are to other primates – in fact, how connected we are with all other organisms – and can indicate the prehistoric migrations of our species, Homo sapiens, all over the world. Advances in the dating of fossils and artifacts help determine the age of those remains, which contributes to the big picture of when different milestones in becoming human evolved.
Exciting scientific discoveries continually add to the broader and deeper public knowledge of human evolution. Find out about the latest evidence in our What’s Hot in Human Origins section.
Behavior
Explore the evidence of early human behavior—from ancient footprints to stone tools and the earliest symbols and art – along with similarities and differences in the behavior of other primate species.
3D Collection
Explore our 3D collection of fossils and artifacts.
Human Fossils
From skeletons to teeth, early human fossils have been found of more than 6,000 individuals. Look into our digital 3-D collection and learn about fossil human species.
Genetics
Our genes offer evidence of how closely we are related to one another – and of our species’ connection with all other organisms.
Dating
The layers that contain fossils and archeological clues can be dated by more than a dozen techniques that use the basic principles of physics, chemistry, and Earth sciences. Some techniques can even estimate the age of the ancient teeth and bones directly. Advances in dating have made human evolution very exciting!
Human Evolution by The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program
One Species, Living Worldwide
The billions of human beings living today all belong to one species: Homo sapiens.
As in all species, there is variation among individual human beings, from size and shape to skin tone and eye color. But we are much more alike than we are different. We are, in fact, remarkably similar. The DNA of all human beings living today is 99.9% alike.
We all have roots extending back 200,000 years to the emergence of the first modern humans in Africa, and back more than 6 million years to the evolution of the earliest human species in Africa. This amazing story of adaptation and survival is written in the language of our genes, in every cell of our bodies—as well as in the fossil and behavioral evidence.
This ancient heritage is yours.
Explore the origins of modern humans in Africa about 200,000 years ago and celebrate our species’ epic journey around the world in this video: "One Species, Living Worldwide."
http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/one-species-living- worldwide
a joint statement of IAP by 68 national and international science academies lists as established scientific fact that Earth is approximately 4.6 billion years old and has undergone continual change; that life, according to the evidence of earliest fossils, appeared on Earth at least 3.8 billion years ago and has subsequently taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve; and that the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicates their common primordial origin
New Research Confirms 'Out Of Africa' Theory Of Human Evolution
Homo sapiens originated in Africa 150,000 years ago and began to migrate 55,000 to 60,000 years ago. It is thought he arrived in Australia around 45,000 years before present (BP). Australia was, at the time, already colonised by homo erectus. This dispersal, from Africa to Australia through Arabia, Asia and the Malay peninsula, could have occurred at a rate of 1km per year. (Credit: Image courtesy of University Of Cambridge)
New Research Confirms 'Out Of Africa' Theory Of Human Evolution -- ScienceDaily
DNA Agrees With All the Other Science: Darwin Was Right
Molecular biologist Sean Carroll shows how evolution happens, one snippet of DNA at a time
One of the great triumphs of modern evolutionary science, evo devo addresses many of the key questions that were unanswerable when Charles Darwin published On the Origin of Species in 1859, and Carroll has become a leader in this nascent field. Now a professor of molecular biology and genetics at the University of Wisconsin, he continues to decode the genes that control life’s physical forms and to explore how mutations in those genes drive evolutionary change. These days, Carroll also devotes increasing energy to telling the public about his field’s remarkable discoveries through a series of books—Endless Forms Most Beautiful, The Making of the Fittest, and the brand-new Remarkable Creatures. He spoke with DISCOVER senior editor Pamela Weintraub about what his work has taught him about Darwin, the nature of evolution, and how life really works.
It has been 150 years since Charles Darwin proposed his theory of evolution in On the Origin of Species, yet in some ways the concept of evolution seems more controversial than ever today. Why do you think that is?
It is a cultural issue, not a scientific one. On the science side our confidence grows yearly because we see independent lines of evidence converge. What we’ve learned from the fossil record is confirmed by the DNA record and confirmed again by embryology. But people have been raised to disbelieve evolution and to hold other ideas more precious than this knowledge. At the same time, we routinely rely on DNA to convict and exonerate criminals. We rely on DNA science for things like paternity. We rely on DNA science in the clinic to weigh our disease risks or maybe even to look at prognoses for things like cancer. DNA science surrounds us, but in this one realm we seem unwilling to accept its facts. Juries are willing to put people to death based upon the variations in DNA, but they’re not willing to understand the mechanism that creates that variation and shapes what makes humans different from other things. It’s a blindness. I think this is a phase that we’ll eventually get through. Other countries have come to peace with DNA. I don’t know how many decades or centuries it’s going to take us.
DNA Agrees With All the Other Science: Darwin Was Right | DiscoverMagazine.com
They Don't Make Homo Sapiens Like They Used To
Our species—and individual races—have recently made big evolutionary changes to adjust to new pressures.
They Don't Make Homo Sapiens Like They Used To | DiscoverMagazine.com
Hundreds of Human Genes Still Evolving
A comprehensive scan of the human genome finds that hundreds of our genes have undergone positive natural selection during the past 10,000 years of human evolution.
Hundreds of Human Genes Still Evolving
Scientists have discovered a wealth of evidence concerning human evolution, and this evidence comes in many forms. Thousands of human fossils enable researchers and students to study the changes that occurred in brain and body size, locomotion, diet, and other aspects regarding the way of life of early human species over the past 6 million years. Millions of stone tools, figurines and paintings, footprints, and other traces of human behavior in the prehistoric record tell about where and how early humans lived and when certain technological innovations were invented. Study of human genetics show how closely related we are to other primates – in fact, how connected we are with all other organisms – and can indicate the prehistoric migrations of our species, Homo sapiens, all over the world. Advances in the dating of fossils and artifacts help determine the age of those remains, which contributes to the big picture of when different milestones in becoming human evolved.
Exciting scientific discoveries continually add to the broader and deeper public knowledge of human evolution. Find out about the latest evidence in our What’s Hot in Human Origins section.
Behavior
Explore the evidence of early human behavior—from ancient footprints to stone tools and the earliest symbols and art – along with similarities and differences in the behavior of other primate species.
3D Collection
Explore our 3D collection of fossils and artifacts.
Human Fossils
From skeletons to teeth, early human fossils have been found of more than 6,000 individuals. Look into our digital 3-D collection and learn about fossil human species.
Genetics
Our genes offer evidence of how closely we are related to one another – and of our species’ connection with all other organisms.
Dating
The layers that contain fossils and archeological clues can be dated by more than a dozen techniques that use the basic principles of physics, chemistry, and Earth sciences. Some techniques can even estimate the age of the ancient teeth and bones directly. Advances in dating have made human evolution very exciting!
Human Evolution by The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program
One Species, Living Worldwide
The billions of human beings living today all belong to one species: Homo sapiens.
As in all species, there is variation among individual human beings, from size and shape to skin tone and eye color. But we are much more alike than we are different. We are, in fact, remarkably similar. The DNA of all human beings living today is 99.9% alike.
We all have roots extending back 200,000 years to the emergence of the first modern humans in Africa, and back more than 6 million years to the evolution of the earliest human species in Africa. This amazing story of adaptation and survival is written in the language of our genes, in every cell of our bodies—as well as in the fossil and behavioral evidence.
This ancient heritage is yours.
Explore the origins of modern humans in Africa about 200,000 years ago and celebrate our species’ epic journey around the world in this video: "One Species, Living Worldwide."
http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/one-species-living- worldwide
a joint statement of IAP by 68 national and international science academies lists as established scientific fact that Earth is approximately 4.6 billion years old and has undergone continual change; that life, according to the evidence of earliest fossils, appeared on Earth at least 3.8 billion years ago and has subsequently taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve; and that the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicates their common primordial origin
New Research Confirms 'Out Of Africa' Theory Of Human Evolution
Homo sapiens originated in Africa 150,000 years ago and began to migrate 55,000 to 60,000 years ago. It is thought he arrived in Australia around 45,000 years before present (BP). Australia was, at the time, already colonised by homo erectus. This dispersal, from Africa to Australia through Arabia, Asia and the Malay peninsula, could have occurred at a rate of 1km per year. (Credit: Image courtesy of University Of Cambridge)
New Research Confirms 'Out Of Africa' Theory Of Human Evolution -- ScienceDaily
DNA Agrees With All the Other Science: Darwin Was Right
Molecular biologist Sean Carroll shows how evolution happens, one snippet of DNA at a time
One of the great triumphs of modern evolutionary science, evo devo addresses many of the key questions that were unanswerable when Charles Darwin published On the Origin of Species in 1859, and Carroll has become a leader in this nascent field. Now a professor of molecular biology and genetics at the University of Wisconsin, he continues to decode the genes that control life’s physical forms and to explore how mutations in those genes drive evolutionary change. These days, Carroll also devotes increasing energy to telling the public about his field’s remarkable discoveries through a series of books—Endless Forms Most Beautiful, The Making of the Fittest, and the brand-new Remarkable Creatures. He spoke with DISCOVER senior editor Pamela Weintraub about what his work has taught him about Darwin, the nature of evolution, and how life really works.
It has been 150 years since Charles Darwin proposed his theory of evolution in On the Origin of Species, yet in some ways the concept of evolution seems more controversial than ever today. Why do you think that is?
It is a cultural issue, not a scientific one. On the science side our confidence grows yearly because we see independent lines of evidence converge. What we’ve learned from the fossil record is confirmed by the DNA record and confirmed again by embryology. But people have been raised to disbelieve evolution and to hold other ideas more precious than this knowledge. At the same time, we routinely rely on DNA to convict and exonerate criminals. We rely on DNA science for things like paternity. We rely on DNA science in the clinic to weigh our disease risks or maybe even to look at prognoses for things like cancer. DNA science surrounds us, but in this one realm we seem unwilling to accept its facts. Juries are willing to put people to death based upon the variations in DNA, but they’re not willing to understand the mechanism that creates that variation and shapes what makes humans different from other things. It’s a blindness. I think this is a phase that we’ll eventually get through. Other countries have come to peace with DNA. I don’t know how many decades or centuries it’s going to take us.
DNA Agrees With All the Other Science: Darwin Was Right | DiscoverMagazine.com
They Don't Make Homo Sapiens Like They Used To
Our species—and individual races—have recently made big evolutionary changes to adjust to new pressures.
They Don't Make Homo Sapiens Like They Used To | DiscoverMagazine.com
Hundreds of Human Genes Still Evolving
A comprehensive scan of the human genome finds that hundreds of our genes have undergone positive natural selection during the past 10,000 years of human evolution.
Hundreds of Human Genes Still Evolving