The hypocrites deceives himself while the believers talks to God and the chosen ones.

[LuisDantas]

Come to think of it, this thread provides excellent arguments for urging Muslims to avoid proselitism.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Salam

A hypocrite in context of Quran and Hadiths is a Muslim who is not sincere in his faith.

They profess outwardly faith and trick themselves they are righteous.

My post is about how tawasul would stop the self-deception of such Muslims but they refuse to do it.

So, you're judging other Muslims for not following the Quran and Hadiths exactly as you do. Is that correct?

 

[LuisDantas]

So, you're judging other Muslims for not following the Quran and Hadiths exactly as you do. Is that correct?

Also: what is a Muslim who was raised as such from birth to do, when he disagrees with the expectations of behavior and belief that the community of Muslims projects towards him or her?

Apostasy is frowned upon something fierce. So is disagreement. What should a sincere disbeliever or even a Muslim who diverges from the community's expectations do?

 

[Clara Tea]

The hypocrite admires himself and is satisfied with his outward actions even though there is distance from him from God's mercy and proximity mainly because he doesn't ever truly address God. He foremost talks to himself about talking to God. He talks to himself and says "I am being like this to God" "I am being sincere to him and bowing to him sincerely" while not for a second ever feeling shame to God's vision.

The reason why "they try to deceive God and believers", is because they watch themselves with admiring proud eyes. They trick themselves and so seek to trick people with their deception to themselves.

Quran has a very easy solution to this. "if came to you and asked forgiveness of God and the Messenger asked forgiveness for them"

And says about hypocrites "if they are told come, the Messenger of God will ask forgiveness for you you see the hypocrites turn away and they are proud".

But these days they will say "he is dead, he can't hear us, it's shirk to talk to dead people", and hide their arrogancy from seeking intercession of God's chosen in a pious argumentative way.

When you talk to God's chosen, it's not about you anymore, it's about how much you are in need of their intercession and prayers. But the hypocrite will never do it. He tell himself he is a sincere worshiper of God same way Iblis would tell himself that for years. Admiring himself more then God and when tested couldn't remain sincere to God's decision and choice of Adam (a).

When you realize all goodness stems from God through his chosen ones interceding, and that good emanates from their pull towards God by his permission and that they been fighting for you your whole life, you feel ashamed of the evil and don't make big of "your good deeds", but see that it belongs more to God and that without his intercession and the intercession of his chosen ones, we would have long perished.

But the hypocrites knows he is righteous, he has deceived himself almost to the extent of certainty. He measures people's honor by worldly eyes, but tells himself, he is a sincere servant of God and is spiritual.

These people are so confused about good and evil, that even during time of Mohammad (s), they didn't understand who Mohammad's (s) enemies were and took their interpretation of Quran from them.

If they seek intercession of God's chosen, hypocrisy at that moment, is defeated. This is a very easy practical solution that Quran emphasizes on, but don't hold your breathe for them to do it.

Ya Mohammad Ya Ali, Ya Ali Ya Mohammad, help me both, for you both are helpers, and suffice me both, for you both suffice.

President W. Bush defied God and attacked Iraq "thou shalt not kill" "thou shalt not bear false witness," etc. W. Bush convinced the Religious Right that we have to fight a never-ending war for peace. Carpet bombs left 1/2 mile craters, and Rumsfeld assured us (contrary to the truth) that civilians were not killed, though the bombs were dropped near cities.

W. Bush tried to pretend to be on God's side "fight the axis of evil."

The sign outside of Guantanamo, Cuba, says that the US is fighting for freedom and libertyl (that's not what the torture was all about). The torture was designed to obtain false confessions, in order to justify the wars.

 

[Clara Tea]

Also: what is a Muslim who was raised as such from birth to do, when he disagrees with the expectations of behavior and belief that the community of Muslims projects towards him or her?

Apostasy is frowned upon something fierce. So is disagreement. What should a sincere disbeliever or even a Muslim who diverges from the community's expectations do?

I think that's where saints come from (disagree and die painfully).

 

[Link]

So, you're judging other Muslims for not following the Quran and Hadiths exactly as you do. Is that correct?

It's based on this trait of hypocrites mentioned in Quran:

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْا يَسْتَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ لَوَّوْا رُءُوسَهُمْ وَرَأَيْتَهُمْ يَصُدُّونَ وَهُمْ مُسْتَكْبِرُونَ | When they are told, ‘Come, that Allah’s Apostle may plead for forgiveness for you,’ they twist their heads, and you see them turn away while proud/arrogant Al-Munaafiqoon : 5

 

[LuisDantas]

It's based on this trait of hypocrites mentioned in Quran:

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْا يَسْتَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ لَوَّوْا رُءُوسَهُمْ وَرَأَيْتَهُمْ يَصُدُّونَ وَهُمْ مُسْتَكْبِرُونَ | When they are told, ‘Come, that Allah’s Apostle may plead for forgiveness for you,’ they twist their heads, and you see them turn away while proud/arrogant Al-Munaafiqoon : 5

Edit Post by LuisDantas
That is hardly hypocrisy. I don't think that it is fair to even call that arrogance or pride.

People have a legitimate right to refuse to recognize and support claims of favor by god.

All the more so when the premise is that there would be a need for "forgiveness from god" - by a third party, no less.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think that's where saints come from (disagree and die painfully).

So-called "kuffar" killings too.

 

[Link]

That is hardly hypocrisy.

I understand from non-Islamic outlook this may seem the case.

However, my OP was on how Islamically, it's against sincerity to God and him choosing servants of proximity to himself over others as means to him and intercession is included in all that.

Islamically, recognizing God's chosen, we see they are inwardly there with us, and God and his chosen have better claim to our goodness as the source then we do ourselves.

It is heedlessness to the chosen as God's unseen signs in the journey and companions and masters of the way.

To be arrogant towards seeking forgiveness of God through intercession of God's chosen, is following the footsteps of the arrogance of Iblis towards Adam and insincerity to God's choice and what is manifested by God's two hands of Majesty and Beauty.

 

[LuisDantas]

I understand from non-Islamic outlook this may seem the case.

However, my OP was on how Islamically, it's against sincerity to God and him choosing servants of proximity to himself over others as means to him and intercession is included in all that.

Islamically, recognizing God's chosen, we see they are inwardly there with us, and God and his chosen have better claim to our goodness as the source then we do ourselves.

It is heedlessness to the chosen as God's unseen signs in the journey and companions and masters of the way.

To be arrogant towards seeking forgiveness of God through intercession of God's chosen, is following the footsteps of the arrogance of Iblis towards Adam and insincerity to God's choice and what is manifested by God's two hands of Majesty and Beauty.

So, are you saying that it is not possible for a sincere Muslim to refuse without incurring in what you call hypocrisy?

Seems to me that the logical implication would be that Muslims ought to be encouraged to question their adherence to the faith often and in no uncertain terms - and be fully encouraged to apostatise when they find the need.

The alternative would be either the need for what you call hypocrisy (probably being a "kaffir") or what I call hypocrisy (and which is quite unadvisable, most of all when coupled with expectations of belief in Allah).

 

[Link]

So, are you saying that it is not possible for a sincere Muslim to refuse without incurring in what you call hypocrisy?

Salam

This post I did in one on one debate might clarify that even Adam's (s) sin per Tasfir Hassan Al-Askari (a) was looking towards Mohammad (s) and his family (a) with envy wanting to reach their station and he sought to come close to them and reach their rank and station of authority, and eating of the tree is metaphorical expression of looking towards them with envy:

Imam Hasan Askari ((عليه السلام).) said:

When Adam ((عليه السلام).) failed to cling to the preferable and left it, he confessed to his sin and sought pardon saying: O Lord! Kindly accept my repentance and excuse and grant me my earlier rank and raise my status, because the effect of this fault of mine has appeared in all parts of my body.

At that time, Almighty said: O Adam! Do you not remember that I had called upon you that when you face calamities and troubles, you must give the mediation of Muhammad and his family ((عليه السلام).) and then you should pray to Me?

Adam said: Indeed O Lord! I do recall it.

Allah said: Seek the mediation, especially of Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain ((عليه السلام).) and ask from Me. I will answer your request and grant you more than your want.

Adam submitted: O Allah! O my Lord! Their rank, in my sight, has reached so much that, through their mediation, my mistake has been pardoned by You, though You had commanded the angels to prostrate before me and You made Your Paradise available to me and You married Your slave-girl, Hawwa, with me and You made angels my servants (how much beneficent You are)!

In reply, Almighty said: O Adam! I had asked angels to prostrate only because you were the container of these Five Precious Personalities and had you, before your mistake, requested me, making them mediators to protect you from mistake and even to make you aware of the delusion of Iblees for being protected from his evil, I would have accepted that request also. But whatever becomes known to Me earlier comes true. Now you may pray to Me making them your Waseelah. I will certainly accept it.

Then Adam ((عليه السلام).) prayed like this: O Allah, I give You the Waseelah of Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) and of his Purified family, I repeat, of the mediation of Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain ((عليه السلام).) and of their progeny ((عليه السلام).), please forgive my mistake and make me regain the rank You have so graciously granted to me and grant me more through Your generosity.

In reply the Almighty Allah said: O Adam! I have accepted your prayer and am pleased with you and I have turned My gifts and grants towards you and re-established you to your earlier rank, which I had granted you by My grace and now I have given full benefits of My unfathomable bounties.

Source: Tafseer of Imam Hasan Askari(عليه السلام), Sura-e-Baqara, Verse 35-39

My comment: Ultimately, if Adam (a) didn't mistrust the tree of life and continued to be steadfast in their love, and at time of doubt and peril, mediated through them to clarify the truth that Iblis lied about and caused him to doubt, seems like the whole tragedy would've been avoided and this world would not be set in motion.

But this is the trial of envy vs love. He wanting to be their rank and be of the exalted ones and have the authority that wouldn't disappear believed in the lies of Iblis but also Adam (a) believed because he was truthful and hence naive. Truthful people tend to be naive unfortunately.

It can be seen what you see as "gods" to be are but exalted servants that God yes wants us to take as means to him, but they are not to be seen as equals to God and hence not labelled as "gods".

 

[Link]

From Misbahal Shariah, Imam Jaffar (a) describes a hypocrite:

The hypocrite is content to be far from the mercy of Allah, because his outward actions appear to be in line with Islamic laws; and yet he is heedless and ineffective, mocking and transgressing its truthfulness in his heart.

The mark of hypocrisy is disregard for lies, treachery, insolence, false claims, insincerity, foolishness, error and lack of modesty, making little of acts of disobedience, desiring believers to lose faith, and making light of misfortunes in the faith; pride, praise, praise of love, love of praise, envy, preferring this world to the next and evil to good, inciting slander, love of amusement, dealing with prevaricators, helping aggressive people avoiding good deeds, disparaging those who do good, considering good the evil done by the hypocrite and recognizing as odious whatever good another person does; and many other things like that.

Allah has described the hypocrites in more than one place. He said,


وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَعْبُدُ اللَّهَ عَلَى حَرْفٍ فَإِنْ أَصَابَهُ خَيْرٌ اطْمَأَنَّ بِهِ وَإِنْ أَصَابَتْهُ فِتْنَةٌ انقَلَبَ عَلَى وَجْهِهِ خَسِرَ الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةَ ذَلِكَ هُوَ الْخُسْرَانُ الْمُبِينُ

And among men is he who serves Allah [standing] on the verge. So that if good befalls him he is satisfied therewith, but if a trial afflicts him he turns back headlong; he loses this world as well as the next; that is a manifest loss. (22:11)

In describing them, Allah said,



وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَقُولُ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَبِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَمَا هُم بِمُؤْمِنِينَ. يُخَادِعُونَ اللّهَ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَمَا يَخْدَعُونَ إِلاَّ أَنفُسَهُم وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ. فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ فَزَادَهُمُ اللّهُ مَرَضاً وَلَهُم عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ بِمَا كَانُوا يَكْذِبُونَ

There are some people who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day", but they are not at all believers. They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive only themselves while they do not perceive. There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease. (2:8-10)

The Holy Prophet said, 'The hypocrite is he who, having made a promise, breaks it; when he acts, he does evil; when he speaks, he lies; when he is trusted, he betrays; when he is given provision, he is reckless; when it is withheld, he makes much of his life.'

He also said, 'A person whose innermost being contradicts his public face is a hypocrite whoever he is, wherever he is, in whatever time he lives, and whatever rank he has.'

 

[firedragon]

I don't need anything from God.
That's not about pride. It is just about accepting what is and being happy with the truth of the life I have.

If your not happy with life I suppose you need something from God. You're not happy with the life you've been provided and need God to change it.
The problem with the Abrahamic faiths teaching the world is not perfect, your are not perfect, God screwed up creation.

People want heaven because what God created is not good enough for them.

That's predominantly an ad hominem fallacy. I doubt that you have the qualification to psychoanalyse billions of people.

Being an atheist does not mean one should be making such facade assumptions about what you need or what anyone else needs. You call yourself a scientist. I respect that. What you are saying is that you believe in scientism. But you are being unscientific Nakosis. Making such facade conjecture without any research whatsoever is not being scientific.

Unless you can provide scientific studies that proves your points in your post.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

And yet Muslims go out of their way to insist that they own children and neighbors

Which verse?

Tawassul is apparently a word meaning "proximity to someone in a position of power ("Wasilah"). Your post #4 seems to imply that for the purposes of this thread what you mean by Tawasul is somewhat different from that definition: an attitude of begging for God's Chosen. An attitude not too far distanced from the literal meaning of the word "Islam", come to think of it.

Tawassul is absolutely a word having devotion. It's a position attained by devotion, not granted. And what does any of that have to do with your "literal meaning of the word Islam"? Could you clarify what you mean?

 

[firedragon]

People have a legitimate right to refuse to recognize and support claims of favor by god.

It's true that when reading one single verse you might interpret it that way. Especially when the sentence is written in such a manner in English.

 

[Link]

Which verse?



Tawassul is absolutely a word having devotion. It's a position attained by devotion, not granted. And what does any of that have to do with your "literal meaning of the word Islam"? Could you clarify what you mean?

Salam

I think he has a similar attitude as did polytheists telling Mohammad (s), why should we do what you say and believe in the Lord you command us to believe in?

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمُ اسْجُدُوا لِلرَّحْمَٰنِ قَالُوا وَمَا الرَّحْمَٰنُ أَنَسْجُدُ لِمَا تَأْمُرُنَا وَزَادَهُمْ نُفُورًا | When they are told: ‘Prostrate yourselves before the All-beneficent,’ they say, ‘What is ‘‘the All-beneficent’’? Shall we prostrate ourselves before whatever you bid us?’ And it increases their aversion. | Al-Furqaan : 60

The thing is Mohammad (s) didn't care about himself being rejected as a person (didn't take things personally), but as a sign of God he cared.

قَدْ نَعْلَمُ إِنَّهُ لَيَحْزُنُكَ الَّذِي يَقُولُونَ ۖ فَإِنَّهُمْ لَا يُكَذِّبُونَكَ وَلَٰكِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ يَجْحَدُونَ | We certainly know that what they say grieves you for it is not you that they deny, but it is Allah’s signs that the oppressors/unjust reject. | Al-An'aam : 33

 

[LuisDantas]

Salam

I think he has a similar attitude as did polytheists telling Mohammad (s), why should we do what you say and believe in the Lord you command us to believe in?

In the sense that you all disapprove of our attitudes of valuing religious freedom?

Sure!

 

[firedragon]

Salam

I think he has a similar attitude as did polytheists telling Mohammad (s), why should we do what you say and believe in the Lord you command us to believe in?

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمُ اسْجُدُوا لِلرَّحْمَٰنِ قَالُوا وَمَا الرَّحْمَٰنُ أَنَسْجُدُ لِمَا تَأْمُرُنَا وَزَادَهُمْ نُفُورًا | When they are told: ‘Prostrate yourselves before the All-beneficent,’ they say, ‘What is ‘‘the All-beneficent’’? Shall we prostrate ourselves before whatever you bid us?’ And it increases their aversion. | Al-Furqaan : 60

The thing is Mohammad (s) didn't care about himself being rejected as a person (didn't take things personally), but as a sign of God he cared.

قَدْ نَعْلَمُ إِنَّهُ لَيَحْزُنُكَ الَّذِي يَقُولُونَ ۖ فَإِنَّهُمْ لَا يُكَذِّبُونَكَ وَلَٰكِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ يَجْحَدُونَ | We certainly know that what they say grieves you for it is not you that they deny, but it is Allah’s signs that the oppressors/unjust reject. | Al-An'aam : 33

I think brother he read the first part of a Wikipedia page. I was just reading that page.

 

[Link]

In the sense that you all disapprove of our attitudes of valuing religious freedom?

Sure!

Salam

The topic is really from an Islamic point of view why a hypocrite deceives himself while not perceiving it, Quran says, "they only deceive themselves while not perceiving (the fact they lie to themselves)" in Surah Baqara.

My topic is also how the Quran has a cure for hypocrisy, in many verses, it emphasizes on the position of Mohammad (s) as intercessor for our sins.

So I'm emphasizing this is a cure for hypocrisy among the cures, and if a person does it, he will be released from his hypocrisy.

The Quran says a necessary quality of a hypocrite is they won't come to Mohammad (s) for him to ask forgiveness for them.

This is not the only cure, there are others. If they see God as blessed and honor believers, this will cure them as well, but they measure honor with worldly eyes.

If they strive in God's way and are grateful for God's spiritual favor to humanity over the materialistic illusion of Iblis, they will be free.

I am merely in this topic, discussing why having Mohammad (s) advocate for you will cure the self-admiration of hypocrites and make them realize the truth and no longer lie to themselves.

All blessings in my life opened up when I sincerely asked Mohammad (s) to intercede for my sins and to advocate with God for me.

If Ali (a) didn't fight for my soul and argue with me about Islam constantly as I would accuse him of being a figment of my imagination, I would never come to Islam as well.

I would have long perished where it not for the intercession of God through his chosen ones on my path. They intercepted my falling and God and his chosen saved me.

 

[Link]

I think brother he read the first part of a Wikipedia page. I was just reading that page.

I understand, but I'm talking how he perceives "Islam" as all "begging from God's chosen". It's similar how polytheists would say to Mohammad (s) (paraphrasing my understanding of the verse) "why should we prostrate to God and what is God anyways? You are asking us to simply follow your commands and are dictating what God is to us!"