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the idea of hell...

suzimcq

suzi
I was thinking about the idea that we are each created special, and given different gifts and talents. I was thinking on how this idea corresponds with the idea of hell.
If the idea is that there is a god, who is a deity not bound by time and space; who creates each person special, and travels with them throughout their lives; that god would have put each person here for a reason, created, and molded them for a purpose. And if that god is infallible, then nothing that person would do, could they be faulted for. Every “good” and “bad” aspect of them would have been hand crafted by god.
Take into account Judas and Pilate. They were made to kill Jesus, according to the Bible. God planed from the beginning, to have the lamb sacrificed in order to save mankind. This was something that was written as predestined. If Judas had not have handed over Jesus, and Pilate had not let him be crucified, then his death would not have happened as it was written to. So then, how can we turn around and say that these men went to hell? They were carrying out god’s work.
If the destiny of man is planned out by god, and he hand crafts us all, then every action done by man is the will of god. Why then would anyone be punished for carrying out his will?
(Some References:
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations” -Jeremiah 1:5
“your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” –Psalm 139:16)
The concept of Hell has always confused me in the religion. I have never understood how an all loving and knowing, and merciful being would send a soul that he created to eternal suffering. If my child hated me, and she cursed my name and never spoke to me, I would still not be able to wish any harm on her because she is my child. And I am only human, not a benevolent, all loving deity.
I would love some insight.
But please don’t chastise me for having questions about the religion, I am only curious to see if people can make since out of some of the ideas for me. I grew up in the Christian church, and am always fascinated by it. To ask me not to think, and question, would be asking me to deny myself all that I am.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Suzi wrote:

They were made to kill Jesus, according to the Bible. God planed from the beginning, to have the lamb sacrificed in order to save mankind. This was something that was written as predestined. If Judas had not have handed over Jesus, and Pilate had not let him be crucified, then his death would not have happened as it was written to. So then, how can we turn around and say that these men went to hell?

My comment:

If you believe in predestination then I can see your point.. Predestination is not accepted by many people. Among Christians there is the Arminian position..that humans have choice and responsibility...so Judas was free to decide on his course of action to betray Jesus and Pilate was also free in his context to execute Him.

Not being a Christian myself my Faith teaches that God allows us free will to accept Him or not....either way we're responsibible for what we do.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
i guess some are just created to go to hell and some are created to go to heaven...
we're just pawns being used in order to fulfill gods plan...whatever that is as it seems to change direction like the wind...

makes you think god seems pretty impotent if this god depends on pawns to do it's will...

a rather silly notion.
 

suzimcq

suzi
But as a Christian one has no choice but to believe in the Predestined. in this case, John the baptist prophesied about the coming of Jesus who would baptize them in the holy spirit. (Mark 1:8, luke 3:16, matthew 3:11..so on ) and there are places in the old testament mentioning his coming. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19, being one.) Jesus told them all while he was alive that he was going to be betrayed, and killed, and that it had to be. If, as a christian, you do not believe in the predestine, than the prophecies of the Bible would hold no meaning, and you should just throw the whole book out the window.
 
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arthra

Baha'i
But as a Christian one has no choice but to believe in the Predestined. in this case, John the baptist prophesied about the coming of Jesus who would baptize them in the holy spirit. (Mark 1:8, luke 3:16, matthew 3:11..so on ) and there are places in the old testament mentioning his coming. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19, being one.) Jesus told them all while he was alive that he was going to be betrayed, and killed, and that it had to be. If, as a christian, you do not believe in the predestine, than the prophecies of the Bible would hold no meaning, and you should just throw the whole book out the window.


Yes well do you really think everyone needs to believe in "predestination" to be a Christian? It's your choice of course if you want to believe that...

See the article:

Free will in theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not being a Christian myself I've met many fine Christians that believe in free will but I'm not really that interested in playing out all the arguments in theology here because it's already been done before.

One does have choices and with them comes our responsibility..also, the concept of love is involved..

"There are but four kinds of Love:

(a) The love of God for His Creation, the reflection of Himself in the mirror of creation. Through one ray of this Love all other love exists.

(b) The Love of God for His children. His servants. Through this love man is endowed with physical existence, until through the Breaths of the Holy Spirit--this same Love--he receives eternal life and becomes the image of the Living God. This love is the origin of all the love in the world of creation.

(c) "The love of man for God. This is attraction to the Divine World, entrance into the Kingdom of God, receiving the Bounties of God, illumination with the Lights of the Kingdom. This love is the origin of all philanthropy; this love causes the heart of man to reflect the rays of the Sun of Reality.

(d) "The love of man for man. The love which exists between the believers in God is prompted by the ideal of the unity of spirits. This love is attained through the knowledge of God, so that men see the Divine Love reflected in the heart. Each sees in the other the Beauty of God reflected in the soul, and, finding this point of similarity, they are attracted to one another in love. This love will make all men the waves of one sea, the stars of one heaven, the fruits of one tree.

"But the love which sometimes exists between friends is not true love, because it is subject to transmutation. As the breeze blows the slender trees yield. If the wind is in the East the tree leans toward the West, and if the wind turns to the West the tree leans towards the East. This kind of love is originated by the accidental conditions of life. This is not love, it is merely acquaintanceship: it is subject to change...."

~ Abdu'l-Bahá, Paris Talks, pp. 180-181

Love is not something that can be forced, coerced or predestined, as it comes from freedom...our choice!

For example, if he wishes, he can pass his time in praising God, or he can be occupied with other thoughts. He can be an enkindled light through the fire of the love of God, and a philanthropist loving the world, or he can be a hater of mankind, and engrossed with material things. He can be just or cruel. These actions and these deeds are subject to the control of the will of man himself; consequently, he is responsible for them.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 248
 
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ankarali

Active Member
First, the God (Allah) has a power unlimited if he wants to creat something he says ''be'' and that thing has been created. He created our destinies also but we are free to choose the good one and we have the responsibility to choose it. I will give some exemples:

you are a child and your father took you on his shoulder and you order him to go somewhere you say him ''bring me there'' and you walk together you are now in front of a crag if you say bring me to there and if you fall from this crag who will be responsible from this act?

another exemple

here is the past-here is the present-and here is the future

you have a mirror if you pull up a little this mirror you can see only the present (it is our view) but if you pull up this mirror to a level so high you can see either past and future

if you want to be informed more read

The Twenty-Sixth Word​


THE TREATISE ON DIVINE DETERMINING​
    • In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.
      And there is not a thing but its [sources and] treasures [inexhaustible] are with Us, but We only send down thereof in due and ascertainable measures. * And of all things have We taken account in a Clear Book.
            • [Divine Determining [Divine Determinig (Qadar) is sometimes known as fate or destiny {Tr.}]and the power of choice [The power of choice or faculty of will {juz'î irâda, juz'i ikhtiyarî}, also known as free will {Tr.}]are two important matters. We shall try to disclose a few of their mysteries in Four Topics.]
FIRST TOPIC
Divine Determining and the power of choice are aspects of a belief pertaining to state and conscience which show the final limits of Islam and belief; they are not theoretical and do not pertain to knowledge. That is to say, a believer attributes everything to Almighty God, even his actions and self, till finally the power of choice confronts him and he is not saved from obligation and responsibility. It tells him: “You are responsible and under obligation.” Then, so that he does not become proud due to the good things and perfections which issue from him, Divine Determining confronts him, saying: “Know your limits; the one who does them is not you.” Yes, Divine Determining and the power of choice are at the final degrees of belief and Islam; the former has entered among the matters of belief to save the soul from pride, and latter, to save it from lack of responsibility. To cling to Divine Determining so that obdurate evil-commanding souls may save themselves from the responsibility of the evils they have committed, and to take pride and become conceited on account of the virtues bestowed on them and to rely on the power of choice, are actions totally opposed to the mystery of Divine Determining and wisdom of the power of choice; they are not matters pertaining to knowledge which give rise to such actions.
Indeed, among ordinary people who have not progressed spiritually there are occasions when Divine Determining may be used, but those are calamities and disasters when it is the remedy for despair and grief. It should not be used for rebellion and in matters of the future so that it becomes a cause of dissipation and idleness. That is to say, the question of Divine Determining has not entered belief to save people from obligation and responsibility, but to save them from pride and conceit. While the power of choice has entered among the tenets of faith to be the source of evils, not to be the source of virtues, so that people become Pharaohs.
Yes, as the Qur’an states, man is completely responsible for his evils, for the one who wishes the evils is he. Since evils are destruction, man may perpetrate much destruction with one evil act, and he becomes deserving of an awesome punishment - like burning a house with one match. However, he does not have the right to take pride in good deeds; his right in them is extremely small. For what wants and requires the good deeds is Divine Mercy, and what creates them is Dominical Power. Both request and reply, reason and cause, are from God. Man only comes to have them through supplication, belief, consciousness, and consent. But what wants evil acts is man’s soul, either through capacity or through choice. Like in the white and beautiful light of the sun some substances become black and putrefy, and the blackness is related to their capacity. But the one who creates the evils through a Divine law which comprises numerous benefits is again Almighty God. That is to say, the cause and the request are from the soul, so that it is the soul which is responsible. And as for the creation and bringing into existence, which belong to Almighty God, since they have other results and fruits which are good, they are good.
It is for the above reason that to commit or desire evil is evil, but the creation of evil is not evil. A lazy man who receives damage from rain, which comprises many instances of good, may not say that the rain is not Mercy. Yes, together with a minor evil in the creation and giving of existence are numerous instances of good. To abandon that good for a minor evil becomes a greater evil. Therefore, a minor evil becomes like good. There is no evil or ugliness in Divine creation. They rather pertain to His servant’s wish and to his capacity.
Furthermore, just as Divine Determining is exempt from evil and ugliness with regard to results and fruits, so too it is free from tyranny and ugliness with respect to reason and cause. Because Divine Determining looks to the true reasons and acts justly. Men construct their judgements on reasons which they see superficially and fall into wrong within the pure justice of Divine Determining. For example, a judge finds you guilty of theft and sends you to prison. You are not a thief, but you have committed a murder which no one knows about. Thus, Divine Determining also sentenced you to imprisonment, but it sentenced you for the secret murder and acted justly. Since the judge sentenced you for a theft of which you were innocent, he acted unjustly. Thus, in a single thing the justice of Divine Determining and Divine creation and the wrong of man’s acquisition were apparent in two respects; you can make analogies with it for other things. That is to say, with regard to origin and end, source and branch, cause and results, Divine Determining and creation are exempt from evil, ugliness, and tyranny.
If it is said: “Since the power of choice does not have the ability to create and man has nothing apart from inclination or desiring, which are as though theoretical, how is it that in the Qur’an of Miraculous Exposition, man is showed to be rebellious and hostile before the Creator of the heavens and the earth, Who complains greatly about him; He mobilizes Himself and all His angels to assist His believing servants against the rebellious, and attaches the greatest importance to them?”
The Answer: Because unbelief, rebellion, and evil are destruction and non-existence. However, great destruction and innumerable instances of non-existence may result in a single theoretical matter and instance of non-existence. Just as, through the helmsman of a large ship abandoning his duty, the ship may sink and the labour of all those employed on it go for nothing, and all those instances of destruction result in a single instance of non-existence, so too, since unbelief and rebellion are non-existence and destruction, the power of choice may provoke them through a theoretical matter and cause awesome consequences. For although unbelief is only one evil, since it insults the whole universe as being worthless and futile, and denies all beings, which display proofs of Divine Unity, and is contemptuous towards all the manifestations of the Divine Names, Almighty God’s uttering severe complaints and awesome threats about the unbelievers in the name of the universe and all beings and the Divine Names is pure wisdom, and to give eternal punishment is pure justice. Since through unbelief and rebellion, man goes toward destruction, with a small act of service, he may perform a great many works. For this reason the believers are in need of Almighty God’s boundless grace in the face of them. For if ten strong men undertake the protection and repair of a house, in the face of one troublesome child who is trying to burn it down, they may be obliged to beseech and have recourse to the child’s parents, or even the king. In the same way the believers are in need of many Divine favours in order to withstand the unmannerly people of rebellion.
In Short: If the one speaking of Divine Determining and the power of choice has perfect belief, he attributes the universe and himself to Almighty God and knows them to be under His disposal. Then he has the right to speak of them. For since he knows himself and everything to be from Almighty God, relying on his power of choice, he undertakes the responsibility. He accepts that it is the source of evils and proclaims his Sustainer free of fault. He remains within the sphere of worship and undertakes the obligations with which he is charged by Almighty God. Moreover, in order not to become proud at the perfections and good deeds which issue from him, he looks to Divine Determining, and offers thanks rather than taking pride in them. He sees Divine Determining in the calamities that befall him, and endures them in patience.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The concept of Hell has always confused me in the religion. I have never understood how an all loving and knowing, and merciful being would send a soul that he created to eternal suffering. If my child hated me, and she cursed my name and never spoke to me, I would still not be able to wish any harm on her because she is my child. And I am only human, not a benevolent, all loving deity.
I would love some insight.

Do you think Jesus had some insight about the concept of hell ?

Did Jesus experience 'eternal suffering' while Jesus was in hell?
According to Scripture Jesus went to hell until God resurrected Jesus our of hell. [see: Acts 2 vs27,31,32; Psalm 16v10]

Jesus had insight into the Hebrew OT Scriptures because Jesus was well educated even by age 12 about Scripture [Luke 2 vs42,46,47]

The Hebrew Scriptures teach about the 'Bible's hell'.
There is a BIG difference between what the Bible really teaches about hell,
and what the world of Christendom teaches. What is often taught as Scripture is a non-biblical or pagan hell concept of eternal burning.
Whereas, the Bible's hell [sheol] is just the common grave of mankind were the dead sleep.

Jesus taught the dead are in a deep sleep-like state. [see: John 11vs11-14]
Jesus would have learned that idea about the sleeping dead from the Psalms.
Such as: Psalms 6v5;13v3;115v17;146v4

Jesus was also educated about king David's son Solomon.
Solomon was known for his God-given wisdom. [see: 1st Kings 3 vs4-14;16-28]
Solomon wrote that the dead know nothing according to Ecclesiastes 9v5.

The prophet Daniel looked forward to the future awakening of the dead from death's sleep at Daniel 12 vs2,13; Acts 24v15.

There is a difference between something being foretold such as that Jesus would be in hell [sheol] and being predestined. Prophecies were recorded to fulfill Scripture, but that does not mean we are not free moral agents with the ability to choose to use our free will as we want.
Jesus could have used his free will to Not accomplish God's will. However, like Job, Jesus chose to use his free will to remain faithful.
[Mathew 26v39; Mark 14v36 B; Luke 22v42; John 4v34; 5v30; 6v38]

Because Jesus died faithful then God gave Jesus the keys to unlock hell.
[see: Revelation 1v18]
According to Rev. [20vs13,14] Jesus uses those keys unlocking the biblical hell or common grave of mankind until everyone in hell is 'delivered up' as in meaning resurrected out of the common grave. Then, please notice, that once hell is vacant of people, then emptied-out hell is cast into second death.

Except for those committing the unforgivable sin [Matt 12v32; Heb. 6vs4-6],
all the rest of mankind are resurrected to either heaven [Rev 20v6;14v4; 5vs9,10],
or resurrected to life on a paradisaic earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.
 
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fishy

Active Member
uravip2me said:
Jesus would have learned that idea about the sleeping dead from the Psalms.
Why would god need to read the book written by him to learn about anything?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Why would god need to read the book written by him to learn about anything?

Please keep in mind that 'heaven' was Not opened up to Jesus until the time of his baptism at age 30.
[Luke 3v21-23]

No where does Scripture say Jesus wrote the Bible, but that all Scripture is inspired by God. God [YHWH] is Jesus' Father and Creator.
Jesus, according to Rev. [3v14], is the beginning of the creation by God.
God is Uncreated according to Psalm 90v2.
So, the heavenly created Jesus was not before the beginning as God was before the beginning. God sent the pre-human Jesus to earth.
Jesus, although willing, did not send himself.
-Proverbs 8vs22-31

So, earthly Jesus would have learned about his Heavenly Father the same way we do: Through prayer and study of Holy Scripture.
-Luke 11v13 B; Acts 17v11.
 

St Giordano Bruno

Well-Known Member
It was just invented by the church as a means to control us, like there is not even much biblical basis to the kind of hell I was taught by the Catholic Mercy nuns.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I believe you are free to decide what you do or not. Think of it like a video tape. While you are being taped you can do as you wish. God just has the ability to see in the future and already knows what you decided to do. That makes prophecy possible.

All of our lives are predestined just like when you play a video you have seen before and know what will happen.

Is hell a real place? There is much disagreement on the subject and it just depends what religion you subscribe to and who that religion listened to when forming their dogma.

There are good cases for hell as well as no hell. I don't think Jesus mentioned hell nor did Moses that I can remember.

Jesus was a Jew. If I am correct, the Jewish faith does not believe in the afterlife, but I could be wrong about that.

I was raised to believe hell is a real place and it does not matter what actions you do on earth, it matters if you are forgiven and believe in Christ.

I could be wrong about that, but then again who can say for sure one way or another?
 

839311

Well-Known Member
Hell is a concept created by evil humans, and made part of Christian doctrine as a tool to inspire fear and make the general populace easier to control and keep in line, feeding the church with gold, and the priesthood with power and social status. These were evil men who should have been ripped apart by the people as soon as they had tried to introduce the most evil idea possible - the eternal torment of beings - into Christian doctrine.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
But please don’t chastise me for having questions about the religion
Chastise! Chastisization! I chastise thee for thy questions!

I believe heaven and hell are both the presence of God, and it is how we react to His love that determines whether we experience bliss or torment.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
I believe you are free to decide what you do or not. Think of it like a video tape. While you are being taped you can do as you wish. God just has the ability to see in the future and already knows what you decided to do. That makes prophecy possible.

All of our lives are predestined just like when you play a video you have seen before and know what will happen.

Is hell a real place? There is much disagreement on the subject and it just depends what religion you subscribe to and who that religion listened to when forming their dogma.

There are good cases for hell as well as no hell. I don't think Jesus mentioned hell nor did Moses that I can remember.

Jesus was a Jew. If I am correct, the Jewish faith does not believe in the afterlife, but I could be wrong about that.

I was raised to believe hell is a real place and it does not matter what actions you do on earth, it matters if you are forgiven and believe in Christ.

I could be wrong about that, but then again who can say for sure one way or another?

Some Jews believe in an afterlife, and some don't. Like most things, ask two Jews and you'll get three answers.

But I can say that I've never met a Jew that subscribed to the Christian idea of hell; those that do believe in it typically see it as a temporary stop on the way to world to come.

As for the OP, I think that's a Christian idea, although not a universal one. The Baptist churches I attended as a kid and most of the Christians I know now believe we are not predestined to a specific fate, but that we each have a choice in what happens to us.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.

A being who plans to torment half the human race for all eternity is not merciful or compassionate. He is the exact opposite actually.

Here is the opposite of merciful, courtesy of thesaurus.com - cruel, merciless, unforgiving, unkind, unmerciful.

Here is the opposite of compassionate - cruel, hard, harsh, hateful, indifferent, mean, merciless, tyrannous
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
One wonders why heaven or hell would need to exist in a predetermined world anyway. We would be nothing more than written characters in a Divine Comedy of sorts, so why would it be necessary to preserve us beyond the span of our roles?
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Hell is a concept created by evil humans, and made part of Christian doctrine as a tool to inspire fear and make the general populace easier to control and keep in line, feeding the church with gold, and the priesthood with power and social status. These were evil men who should have been ripped apart by the people as soon as they had tried to introduce the most evil idea possible - the eternal torment of beings - into Christian doctrine.

You state this as fact. Now I am going to ask you to prove this as a fact or at least back off your statement and phrase it as an opinion instead.
 
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Gharib

I want Khilafah back
I was thinking about the idea that we are each created special, and given different gifts and talents. I was thinking on how this idea corresponds with the idea of hell.
If the idea is that there is a god, who is a deity not bound by time and space; who creates each person special, and travels with them throughout their lives; that god would have put each person here for a reason, created, and molded them for a purpose. And if that god is infallible, then nothing that person would do, could they be faulted for. Every “good” and “bad” aspect of them would have been hand crafted by god.
Take into account Judas and Pilate. They were made to kill Jesus, according to the Bible. God planed from the beginning, to have the lamb sacrificed in order to save mankind. This was something that was written as predestined. If Judas had not have handed over Jesus, and Pilate had not let him be crucified, then his death would not have happened as it was written to. So then, how can we turn around and say that these men went to hell? They were carrying out god’s work.
If the destiny of man is planned out by god, and he hand crafts us all, then every action done by man is the will of god. Why then would anyone be punished for carrying out his will?
(Some References:
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations” -Jeremiah 1:5
“your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” –Psalm 139:16)
The concept of Hell has always confused me in the religion. I have never understood how an all loving and knowing, and merciful being would send a soul that he created to eternal suffering. If my child hated me, and she cursed my name and never spoke to me, I would still not be able to wish any harm on her because she is my child. And I am only human, not a benevolent, all loving deity.
I would love some insight.
But please don’t chastise me for having questions about the religion, I am only curious to see if people can make since out of some of the ideas for me. I grew up in the Christian church, and am always fascinated by it. To ask me not to think, and question, would be asking me to deny myself all that I am.

the 6'th pillar of Islam is to believe in:

'The decree of God, the good of it and the bad of it'

the Good is in 2 categories;
1. a reward as mercy from God to you so he may test you with it
2. a reward for the good which you have done.

the Bad is in 2 categories;
1. a punishment from God so he may test you with it
2. a punishment for the bad you have done and in turn your sins are wiped off.

as for Jesus peace be upon him, muslims do not believe that he was killed. we believe he was risen from earth and will be brought back so as to live his life and die like all other people do. however i would like to explain what you have said about him getting killed and how those that did it were doing what God wanted.

in islam, judaism and christianity we believe that God knows the future. now lets look at it from the perspective which you have, since God knew how things would turn out long before, he simply made things is that way knowing that thats what the people are going to do. he knew that Jesus peace be upon him was going to be betrayed and, according to christianity, killed then God just said that Jesus peace be upon him will be a sacrifice for the sins of people.

i hope that makes sense.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
But as a Christian one has no choice but to believe in the Predestined. in this case, John the baptist prophesied about the coming of Jesus who would baptize them in the holy spirit. (Mark 1:8, luke 3:16, matthew 3:11..so on ) and there are places in the old testament mentioning his coming. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19, being one.) Jesus told them all while he was alive that he was going to be betrayed, and killed, and that it had to be. If, as a christian, you do not believe in the predestine, than the prophecies of the Bible would hold no meaning, and you should just throw the whole book out the window.

done...
metaphorically speaking of course.
:)
 
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