It is a fact. Only deluded individuals think that God torments people forever, or that there was some other motive other than an evil one to introduce such a grotesque idea into human society.
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the idea of hell...
- Thread starter suzimcq
- Start date
It is a fact. Only deluded individuals think that God torments people forever, or that there was some other motive other than an evil one to introduce such a grotesque idea into human society.
If Jesus did Not mention hell then why is hell mentioned at Matthew 11v23; 16v18; Luke 10v15 and Jesus illustration of 16v23 ?
Gospel writer Luke also mentions hell at Acts 2 vs27,31 in reference to Psalm 16v10.
Gospel writer John also mentions hell at Rev. 1v18;6v8; 20 vs3,14
Besides the biblical hell [sheol] Jesus also mentions hellfire [Gehenna]
Gehenna was translated into English as hell fire, but Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed Not kept burning.
Matthew 5vs22,29,30; 10v28; 18v9; 23vs15,33
Mark 9vs43,45,47
Luke 12v5
Moses mentioned hell [sheol] at:
Numbers 16vs30,33
Deut. 32v22
And if one believes that Moses is the writer of Job:
Job 7v9; 11v8; 14v13; 17 vs13,16; 21v13; 24v19 and 26v6
They believed in the Bible's hell or common grave of mankind where the dead sleep in hell [sheol] until resurrected to heaven, or on earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over a paradisaic earth.
That is why Jesus taught at John [11vs11-14] that the dead sleep.
Abraham believed in an after life as in meaning: resurrection.
-Hebrews 11vs17-19
Like Job, Jesus used his free will to choose to remain faithful to God.
That is why Deut. [30 v19;32v5] offers the choice to obey or not.
Are there truly no references to the concept of an eternally painful, inescapable hell in the entire bible?
I can understand how the concept of eternal damnation could have been used to scare people into believing and conforming in the past, but why does the idea still exist today, if there is no justification for it in the bible?
I'm actually asking this; I wish to know the answer. I grew up in a small nondenominational church (filled with good, honest people) that preached constantly about the love of God, and how good he is, etc etc, but still clung to the notion of the stereotypical image of hell.
Why would a church like this cling to the idea if there is no scriptural backing?
I can understand how the concept of eternal damnation could have been used to scare people into believing and conforming in the past, but why does the idea still exist today, if there is no justification for it in the bible?
I'm actually asking this; I wish to know the answer. I grew up in a small nondenominational church (filled with good, honest people) that preached constantly about the love of God, and how good he is, etc etc, but still clung to the notion of the stereotypical image of hell.
Why would a church like this cling to the idea if there is no scriptural backing?
I agree.
In this plan, there had to be someone to play the part Judas did. In this instance, this part was played by the man named Judas. He did what had to be done, per the plan. Therefore, how could he be condemned to hell for doing the part that the deity had him play?
But this is critical thinking, which is frowned upon by 'the church' (unless, of course, you're critically thinking about how great god is).
To me, this is a fatal flaw within christianity. And one reason why I see it as man-made hogwash. Though believers will manipulate texts to come up with a weak excuse to allow this, all the while condemning humanity and praising their god. It's a great racket really. If you're their god, that is. Not so much for everyone else.
When the Hebrew [sheol] and the Greek [haides/hades/ Gehenna] words were translated into English the words became hell and hellfire.
Sheol [hell] is the 'biblical hell' or common grave of mankind for the unconscious dead. [John 11vs11-14]
The pagan or 'non-biblical hell' [hades] carried the idea of the pagan forever burning hell myth that became taught as if it is Scripture.
The 'fire' part was connected to Gehenna. In Jesus day Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed not kept burning forever. Gehenna got translated into hell fire.
The non-biblical concept of a death-proof soul or immortal soul kept the non-biblical forever burning idea alive although Scripture teaches the soul dies or can be destroyed. [Ezekiel 18vs4,20; Acts 3v23]
So, if one picks up an English translation such as the king James without knowing the difference in the original words, and the difference between the temporary biblical hell [Rev 20vs13,14] and the permanent non-biblical hell myth is why the 'pain' is taught today.
Luke wrote that false wolf-like clergy would fleece the flock of God.
-Acts 20vs28,29
So, the clergy in the dark ages found using the hell fire concept as a good tool to control the flock. Apparently the clergy of today still like using that idea.
[Mark 7vs1-7,13; Matthew 15v9]
Daniel [12vs4,9] helps us understand that at our time frame [time of the end of all badness on earth] that knowledge would be increased. Not just any knowledge or education but biblical knowledge and understanding would be opened up to us.
No, they [Judas and Pilate] were not made to kill Jesus.
Jesus knew one would betray him, but Jesus did not at first know who that would be. It wasn't until Jesus could see Judas' greed with the money box that he could discern that. What was foretold was not predestined but foreknowledge in connection to Jesus being Messiah.
Like Jeremiah was chosen for a job to do in connection to Messiah.
Jesus did not answer Pilate as he could have. Jesus remained silent of his own free will to fulfill prophecy. Please notice who the 'ye' is, and that Pilate is not blamed at Acts 2 vs22,23,36; 3 vs12,13,14,15,19.
Except for those of Matthew 12v32, Everybody else goes to the biblical hell just as Jesus did. - Acts 2vs27,31; Psalm 16v10
That is because the bible's hell [sheol] is just the common grave of mankind.
No suffering in hell just sleep. [John 11vs11-14]
Psalm 139v16 has more to do with DNA as a blueprint down in writing at conception than meaning not having free will as a free moral agent.
So jesus wasn't god?
In Scripture only those committing the unforgivable sin [Matt 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6] are not forgiven but considered as destroyed. [Psalm 92v7]
Hell [sheol] is just the common grave where the dead only sleep.
[Psalm 6v5;13v3;115v17;146v4; Ecc9v5; Daniel 12vs2,13; John 11vs11-14]
Sleep until resurrected to either heaven [Rev 20v6;14v4;5vs9,10], or resurrected on a paradisaic earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.
Please notice in Scripture the temporary 'Bible's hell' comes to an end.
[Rev 20vs13,14]
After everyone in hell is 'delivered up' meaning resurrected out of hell,
then vacant hell is cast empty into a symbolic 'second death'.
Even Satan is destroyed by Jesus in second death.
[Hebrews 2v14 B; Rev; 21v8]
According to Revelation [3v14] Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
Jesus had a pre-human existence in the heavens before God sent Jesus to earth. -Proverbs 8 vs 22-31
What's the point of hell if it's eventually going to be destroyed? Why make it at all?:slap:
Besides, how does that help someone like Judas, who was destined to do what he did? If it wasn't him, it had to be someone, right? Of the prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled.
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So your answer is NO?
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Sin brought the sad consequence of death. The dead are buried.
The Irish have an expression of helling potatoes.
Not meaning roasting but just burying them.
The place or grave for burying the dead in the English KJV is: hell
So 'hell' [the common grave] was needed to bury the dead.
Just seems the point of hell was to have a place to be before resurrection.
Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place.
Sleeping place for the dead buried in hell. [Hebrew: sheol]
Since we die we need a common grave [hell] to 'bury' the dead.
If Adam would have remained obedient, Adam would have retained his original 'sinless nature'. Adam, as our family head, passed down to us his then 'sinful nature' down to us. Since we can not resurrect oneself or another, so we 'go to hell' [common grave of mankind]. in order to have a, so to speak, 'get out of jail [hell] free card' we need to find someone with such a 'card'.
Sinless Jesus has the 'card' or symbolic keys [Rev 1v18] to unlock the prison cell [hell]. The biblical hell [sheol] then serves, so to speak, as a holding place. A silent or sleeping holding place until one is resurrected either to heaven, or on a paradisaic earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.
Judas had free will just as the other apostles. God can choose to see ahead.
In connection to Jesus as Messiah, God could see that Judas' greed could get the better of him. Perhaps others could have let some imperfection get the better of them too but Judas is the one who acted upon his greed.
Even in heaven, perhaps other angels could have let something start to get the better of them, too, but chose to reject it. Cherubic Satan did not start out as Satan the Devil. His wrong desire [James 1vs13-15] led him to turn himself into a Satan and a Devil. Once Satan sinned he never turned back. Never showed sorrow. Never showed repentance. So, Satan will end up in 'second death' [Rev 21v8] meaning destroyed by Jesus. [Hebrews 2v14 B]
Someone? Yes, according to prophecy someone. I guess if we look at the 'law of averages' we can see throughout mankind's history quite a few reject righteousness. So, the pattern would be set for that 'someone' to be there.
The resurrection is Not for anyone committing the unforgivable sin.
[Matthew 12v32; Mark 3v29; Hebrews 6vs4-6]
But, as Matthew [20v28] mentions that Jesus ransom covers 'MANY'.
So, the many or majority of mankind have paid for their sins [Romans 6v7;23]
Which means the majority of mankind will have a resurrection.
InChrist
Free4ever
Judas and Pilate were not made to betray and kill Jesus. You are correct that according to the scriptures it was God's plan to redeem humanity through the death and resurrection of Christ, but God did not cause evil to arise within the hearts and minds of Judas or Pilate. Because God knows the future He knew their propensity toward evil and incorporated it into the events surrounding the death of Christ, but Judas and Pilate freely made their evil decisions and carryied them out.
This is fatalism and it is not the teaching of the Bible.
Certain individuals were chosen by God to accomplish important tasks for God throughout history, but this did/does not diminish a person's freewill.
I think most people have a huge misconception about hell or eternal suffering. God does not want anyone to suffer for eternity and He has gone extremely out of His way to prevent that from happening. The thing is that the scriptures say God is just and will at some point judge sin and wrong-doing. He will not allow sin or evil to exist and have free reign in this universe forever. The judgment of sin is eternal separation from God and those who have chosen to be with God, This is where the suffering comes in because separation from God will be awful as God is the source of life, light, joy and everything good and beautiful. For one to be apart from their Creator and source of life will truly be eternal suffering. Yet, this is the choice many choose because they do not want to be with God.
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There is nothing wrong with seriously thinking and asking sincere questions. I believe God wants each person to do so.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
what yóu've described are the ideas created by religions...but these ideas do not come from God or the bible. They are additional philosophical ideas dreamed up by people. The idea of 'predestination' states that God orchestrates everything we do and therefore is responsible for all the suffering in the world. They then add to that the babylonish teachings of eternal hellfire and torment at the hands of God as you know from the hellfire teaching.
Its important to know that these teachings dont come from God or the bible. The bible hell (sheol) is nothing more then the grave. So the punishment that sinners recieve according to the scriptures is 'death' and that is all. The scritpures also tell us that we cease to exist when we die...we have no consciousness. So there can be no suffering or torment for anyone who does not exist or have consciousness.
Ecclesiates 9:10 äll that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol (hell) the place to which you are going"
Eccl 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all..""
So when i hear of such teachings, its easy to dismiss them because the God of the bible does not predestin us to do wrong, nor does he punish us with torment in a firey hell to make us suffer. In fact the scriptures tell us that God has not acted to bring the wicked one to death because 2Peter 3:9""he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentence" so, like you, God does not wish to bring harm to any of his children....even the ones who rebel and act wickedly.
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St Giordano Bruno
Well-Known Member
Hell, I could not wish for a better thermophile's paradise.
But there is a BIG difference in the differences in temperature between the two [2] hells. [1] The Bible's hell, and [2] The 'non-biblical hell' taught as Scripture.
The non-biblical hell myth teaching of a forever perpetually burning hot furnace hell.
The stone-cold biblical hell [sheol] which is just the temporary common grave of mankind.
waitasec
Veteran Member
no it didn't.
Good points ^above^ Pegg based on what the Bible really teaches.