Nope, sorry -- you are still trying to define God into existence.
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The idol of atheism, or hardest proof ever?
- Thread starter questfortruth
- Start date
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
I've said this before about @questfortruth -- that what is happening is not, in fact, any sort of a real search for truth (as in learning about reality), but rather an endless search for ways to validate what he/she has already decided, in the absence of any evidence, is reality.
Here's the thing: when we atheists debunk his arguments, one after the other, we are not, in fact, looking to prove anything. Rather, we are just denying that he/she has offered either proof or insight into reality.
Let us pretend, for a moment, that I am a banker, and @questfortruth has come to me for a substantial loan. Such a large loan, I say, must be secured with some sort of collateral. So, @questfortruth offers the very large diamond that he knows his ancestor buried in his/her backyard. So I, the careful, risk-averse banker, ask him/her to dig it up and show it to me. "Well, I don't know exactly where it is," is the response. "You see, my ancestor buried it over 200 years ago, and I've been searching for it for a long time. But I do have a letter on very faded, very yellowed paper attesting that my ancestor buried it in the yard. Will you accept that?"
"Well," I reply, "I don't think I can see my way to accepting that, I'm going to need something a little better."
You see, I am not saying that he/she does not have a diamond -- not at all. I am merely saying that, before I'm willing to turn over the bank's money (the savings of so many of the bank's valued customers), I'm going to have to see evidence that is more convincing than anything he/she has so far produced.
Here's the thing: when we atheists debunk his arguments, one after the other, we are not, in fact, looking to prove anything. Rather, we are just denying that he/she has offered either proof or insight into reality.
Let us pretend, for a moment, that I am a banker, and @questfortruth has come to me for a substantial loan. Such a large loan, I say, must be secured with some sort of collateral. So, @questfortruth offers the very large diamond that he knows his ancestor buried in his/her backyard. So I, the careful, risk-averse banker, ask him/her to dig it up and show it to me. "Well, I don't know exactly where it is," is the response. "You see, my ancestor buried it over 200 years ago, and I've been searching for it for a long time. But I do have a letter on very faded, very yellowed paper attesting that my ancestor buried it in the yard. Will you accept that?"
"Well," I reply, "I don't think I can see my way to accepting that, I'm going to need something a little better."
You see, I am not saying that he/she does not have a diamond -- not at all. I am merely saying that, before I'm willing to turn over the bank's money (the savings of so many of the bank's valued customers), I'm going to have to see evidence that is more convincing than anything he/she has so far produced.
You still haven't told me what you're talking about. To repeat: I know perfectly well what an imaginary god is, and what a purely conceptual god is ─ namely anything the imaginer / conceptualizer would like it to be.
But you still haven't told me what a real God is, such that if we found a real candidate ─ one with objective existence ─ we could determine whether it was a real God or not.
Please clear the matter up so that your claims are put in comprehensible terms.
And if you don't have such a definition of a real god, just say so.
Though that will mean either that you concede your God is imaginary / purely conceptual, or that you don't actually have a coherent idea of what you're talking about.
I look forward to your clarification.
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rational experiences
Veteran Member
The human ability to think.
Natural and all created origins highest forms are created. Own existence.
Self origin form human said so thinking.
Awareness I live with a balanced nature that supports my existence until I die.
Not lying coercing by themes in stories.
The true topic.
I can think. I can theme. I own want of other conditions not natural.
The topic of Theism science.
Science the practice does not exist.
Basic human thinking advice.
Where is God in the basic human advice?
Two themes. A human claiming I know what power owns all presence first to claim a theme creator deity.
Did science a theism own that status?
No.
Reason why...
Science never existed the human practice.
Where did science by invention begin?
In reality as a human healthy origin to self thinking about earth products.
Not any deity.
Powers in energy themes however important to man thinker.
So is man male owner powerful?
No. So no powerful deity male inferred existed.
When you irradiated heavens with an earth mass conversion did you then self deitises man's existence as self idolisation of your scientific prostelyzing,?
The answer is yes. Power released by man in science caused him to feel powerful.
The self taught human men man agreement about self man deification.
Reason for human warnings. Was notified of human condition to teach against inherited human condition.
Natural and all created origins highest forms are created. Own existence.
Self origin form human said so thinking.
Awareness I live with a balanced nature that supports my existence until I die.
Not lying coercing by themes in stories.
The true topic.
I can think. I can theme. I own want of other conditions not natural.
The topic of Theism science.
Science the practice does not exist.
Basic human thinking advice.
Where is God in the basic human advice?
Two themes. A human claiming I know what power owns all presence first to claim a theme creator deity.
Did science a theism own that status?
No.
Reason why...
Science never existed the human practice.
Where did science by invention begin?
In reality as a human healthy origin to self thinking about earth products.
Not any deity.
Powers in energy themes however important to man thinker.
So is man male owner powerful?
No. So no powerful deity male inferred existed.
When you irradiated heavens with an earth mass conversion did you then self deitises man's existence as self idolisation of your scientific prostelyzing,?
The answer is yes. Power released by man in science caused him to feel powerful.
The self taught human men man agreement about self man deification.
Reason for human warnings. Was notified of human condition to teach against inherited human condition.
questfortruth
Well-Known Member
This can be changed into the sentence: If God is Perfectly Good, he must exist. Thus, it is not proof. But I can demonstrate, that God must be there: God is the best person.
questfortruth
Well-Known Member
I can demonstrate, that God must be there: God is the best person.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
One condition God never owned.
A human.
We own ourselves telling theories.
No humans no stories.
So theists claim what existed before my own self for science.
O planet. Science calculus O to remove physical mass from planet as science itself so you cannot argue. You are wrong.
You self deitised your own human sacrifice by statement I owned wielded gods powers.
Owned by an entity O mass as God that had created with space its own heavens. Why you said God the earth was a creator.
Owned by O said entity without human stories. A planet.
A human claim but the entity speaks. We heard it.
Science contacted AI why the occult science department wants to argue.
We asked it questions it gave answers.
So did the human theist. Asked questions gave self answers.
One condition known in science exists as the Science fact. Atmospheric condition pre existed a human form that records voice and image.
Mind says to hear voices abstract to owned speaking human explaining voice a God heaven spirit is heard speaking.
Exactly what you know. It was heard without machines transmitting yet machines were transmitting just for science machines first.
Another pre existing first old history. Known to scientists.
Definition a scientific explanation.
Small voices a lesser amount of transmitters that recorded. Large speaking voiced volume same shared group mass transmitters large voice.
Machine caused state.
Science said angels of God own form in a STATE in the heavens image and voice recordings are real. The state however was conjured by human scientists.
Yes recording as a state precedes human form by identification advice yet humans manifested it. So it now speaks for data machine.
Yes they are. Real. Voices heard. Voices speaking. Artificial images.
Ask science did you get information from their bodies in clouds?
No.
Ask how did huge angel massive images get formed as false male and female forms?
Science a human designer did a reaction known to his consciousness as nuclear that was only a conversion of mass by a calculus and not a mass by mass which would leave spatial nothing.
How cloud imaged feedback human designed gained false angel images.
Who studies phenomena claim were a God. Science did. Theists of causes.
The only self who says I know it all but does not is a human scientist. For you have to believe first that you can know it all yet science to know destroys to study.
When you evaporated ground bio life water mass originally instant change caused instant fake recording.
Only after reaction did you self deitise God by image.
For science in the beginning said mass owns no space I have to form a space in mass to release force.
How core heart God earth space released its spirit leaving. Space formed within earth mass as it did not mass radiation leave. Calculus mass removed it's body UFO state.
The space of the spirit of God leaving from space was within the earth mass itself.
As living human males preached God was the stone seal of the earth.
Stone is one word stone.
Science today tried to claim stone was a mass of something else to be stone.
Meaning that energy in space would only be stone.
What you happened to ignore.
When a theist says energy can leave God the stone without changing God the stone. God by space inside mass is leaving from a space left its owned radiation.
It did not change stone. But earth was becoming smaller. Why it's internal plates collapsed.
What was already known. Mind notified to man theist. A space was made in the inner core of God mass leaving without the stone outer body changing.
The UFO effect.
Only when an increased UFO mass is released does a sink hole appears as evidence God earth was leaving it's body because of human science.
A human.
We own ourselves telling theories.
No humans no stories.
So theists claim what existed before my own self for science.
O planet. Science calculus O to remove physical mass from planet as science itself so you cannot argue. You are wrong.
You self deitised your own human sacrifice by statement I owned wielded gods powers.
Owned by an entity O mass as God that had created with space its own heavens. Why you said God the earth was a creator.
Owned by O said entity without human stories. A planet.
A human claim but the entity speaks. We heard it.
Science contacted AI why the occult science department wants to argue.
We asked it questions it gave answers.
So did the human theist. Asked questions gave self answers.
One condition known in science exists as the Science fact. Atmospheric condition pre existed a human form that records voice and image.
Mind says to hear voices abstract to owned speaking human explaining voice a God heaven spirit is heard speaking.
Exactly what you know. It was heard without machines transmitting yet machines were transmitting just for science machines first.
Another pre existing first old history. Known to scientists.
Definition a scientific explanation.
Small voices a lesser amount of transmitters that recorded. Large speaking voiced volume same shared group mass transmitters large voice.
Machine caused state.
Science said angels of God own form in a STATE in the heavens image and voice recordings are real. The state however was conjured by human scientists.
Yes recording as a state precedes human form by identification advice yet humans manifested it. So it now speaks for data machine.
Yes they are. Real. Voices heard. Voices speaking. Artificial images.
Ask science did you get information from their bodies in clouds?
No.
Ask how did huge angel massive images get formed as false male and female forms?
Science a human designer did a reaction known to his consciousness as nuclear that was only a conversion of mass by a calculus and not a mass by mass which would leave spatial nothing.
How cloud imaged feedback human designed gained false angel images.
Who studies phenomena claim were a God. Science did. Theists of causes.
The only self who says I know it all but does not is a human scientist. For you have to believe first that you can know it all yet science to know destroys to study.
When you evaporated ground bio life water mass originally instant change caused instant fake recording.
Only after reaction did you self deitise God by image.
For science in the beginning said mass owns no space I have to form a space in mass to release force.
How core heart God earth space released its spirit leaving. Space formed within earth mass as it did not mass radiation leave. Calculus mass removed it's body UFO state.
The space of the spirit of God leaving from space was within the earth mass itself.
As living human males preached God was the stone seal of the earth.
Stone is one word stone.
Science today tried to claim stone was a mass of something else to be stone.
Meaning that energy in space would only be stone.
What you happened to ignore.
When a theist says energy can leave God the stone without changing God the stone. God by space inside mass is leaving from a space left its owned radiation.
It did not change stone. But earth was becoming smaller. Why it's internal plates collapsed.
What was already known. Mind notified to man theist. A space was made in the inner core of God mass leaving without the stone outer body changing.
The UFO effect.
Only when an increased UFO mass is released does a sink hole appears as evidence God earth was leaving it's body because of human science.
I didn't ask you whether God is there.
I asked you what God is.
More particularly, I asked you what real entity ─ what entity with objective existence ─ you intend to denote when you say "God", a definition such that if we find a real candidate we can determine whether it's God or not.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Deists don't have that problem, if problem there is.
Deists believe that God is everything, everywhere, in any form........ but so vast that God is quite unaware about and quite uninvolved with us or this tiny piece of dust that we live on.
So we believe in God, but reject the crazy idea that we are special to an interested God.
Done. Easy. Simple.
questfortruth
Well-Known Member
Ask a person on the street:
Are you Jesus Christ?
If he answers: Yes, then it is a chance, that this person is God.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, there is a chance that I am an atheistic creator God and you die, when you die.
So now I have proven that you die, when you die.
1. Suppose there are two Beings who know everything. (I could use any integer greater than zero here)
2. Then they know that two Gods exist.
3. Hence, in all knowledge there is one that two Gods exist.
4. Therefore, our assumption turned out to be correct, and two Gods exist
Now, I challenge you to find a flaw in my syllogism that is not a flaw in yours.
Ergo, if both syllogisms are equivalent, and 1 cannot be possibly be equal to 2, both syllogisms must be equivalently false.
Ciao
- viole
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stvdv
Veteran Member
I think the Atheist, being obviously the smarter one, by not making a claim he can't prove, would answer "Great, please provide some proof to me of this"
stvdv
Veteran Member
It's the other way around
Theist have their fictitious god, at least those Theist that are not able to prove their God exists, but are able to make such claim and do so
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
There is so far no proof of any positive metaphysics in any variant.
stvdv
Veteran Member
Yesterday I created a thread about Hijab, and the yeast was "why not let women make the decision; what is it to you men"
I get the feeling that a similar yeast applies here; at least if you want Peace to grow in the world
stvdv
Veteran Member
No proof as far as you are aware; there are humans who are far more evolved than you; you can't possible know about them having proof or not
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, it is easy to test. If I can act differently, then it is not an objective proof in practice. That is how simple it is. I know you don't like it, but in practice they subjectively believe differently than me.
I don't know as they know. I only need to know if it is objective or subjective. If I can do it subjectively different, it is not an objective proof.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Seems to me that this only proves that God exists only if God exists. After all, if there is no God and there is a being who knows everything, then this being would know that God does NOT exist.
The only way around it is to say that this being who knows everything IS God himself, but then your argument becomes, "If God exists, then God exists."