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The illusion of equal treatment

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Inspired by this thread, but I figured it deserves a thread of its own:

"Privatized profits, socialized losses" describes an economic condition where a company gets benefits without having to bear the corresponding risks and disadvantages. I think that a similar situation often occurs with religion.

A recent ruling about state grants for playgrounds brought up the idea of equal treatment of religious organizations: a church objected that they were being excluded from a program that would allow them to get a subsidy to resurface their playground with rubber from recycled tires. The church's lawsuit argued it was illegal to deny them the benefit solely because of their organization's religious nature.

At first blush, it seems like they're arguing for equal treatment of all organizations on their merits without regard to their religious or non-religious nature... i.e. secularism. However, a closer look suggests that this isn't the case: when we remove religion's special disadvantages but not its special benefits, we actually increase inequality overall. We're taking a class of organizations that already receive disproportionate net benefits and giving them even more net benefit.

A related problem occurs with prayer in public meetings: traditionally, many government meetings (e.g. municipal council meetings) began with a Christian invocation. When challenged on this unfair and unequal treatment for one religion, many councils opened up their procedures to allow, on paper at least, invocations from any religion or no religion. Usually, this ends up one of two ways:

- being in a heavily Christian area, even when they open up the invocation to anyone who puts their name forward to do it, only Christians put their name forward. The invocations continue being exclusively Christian.

- an atheist, Satanist, Wiccan, or some other member of an "objectionable" group applies to give the invocation. Rather than suffer through a non-Christian invocation, the governmental body chooses to eliminate the invocation altogether.

The result is that even though any individual governmental body can say they treat all religions equally, when we look at the big picture, we have a situation of "Christianity or nothing."

In both situations, any "equality" is just an illusion. We only see it when we narrowly focus on one or two details without considering the overall context. When we look at the big picture, we see that what gets done in the name of "religious equality" often ends up actually worsening or entrenching inequality.

Thoughts?
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Should we tax the playground scenerio? (I say yes.)

I would have to agree with you on your second point. This can be extended to prayer in schools and the teaching of Creationism. No matter how it's framed it always seems to come up Christian prayer and the Christian story of creation that is touted. Didn't mean to derail your thread.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
When people are used to getting something unfairly, and then you take it away, they will perceive it as unfair treatment. This has myriad applications, these days.
Especially for newer generations that have no life experience as older generations. Sense of fairness seems to be on a generational sliding scale. Manipulated very easily for subsequent generations who are born into something thinking it the norm.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Especially for newer generations that have no life experience as older generations. Sense of fairness seems to be on a generational sliding scale. Manipulated very easily for subsequent generations who are born into something thinking it the norm.

To be fair, each newer generation seems to have been somewhat more spoiled by their parents and given unrealistic expectations. It's hard to accept and value earning something when everything has always been handed to you. Many of them have no other context, and think they deserve what they want by virtue of existing.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
Yep, funny how readily a religion whose founder supposedly promoted an anti materialistic lifestyle is prepared to go to court to shake down taxpayers for a few more bucks, when I suspect they could fund it themselves with no great effort. The tax exempt status religion enjoys is a nonsense in the 21st century, regardless of your religious affiliation (or lack of) you cannot deny that religion is "big business". The faithful customer base is always prepared to crowd fund, they are fiercely brand loyal, the evidence of their generosity is seen in the many churches, shrines and temples that pepper the surface of the planet. I'm of the view that religion should be classified as part of the entertainment industry, again from a purely impartial view point religion certainly entertains billions of people, it is about human creativity and imagination, it is about building a 'fan base', I think it is where it best fits. However, that would put it in the same tax category as any other business in the entertainment industry, which seems eminently reasonable to me. One day I'm hoping my viewpoint gains traction in any country that isn't a theocracy, I'm not so sure I'll be around to see it happen though *sighs quietly to himself*.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
In both situations, any "equality" is just an illusion. We only see it when we narrowly focus on one or two details without considering the overall context. When we look at the big picture, we see that what gets done in the name of "religious equality" often ends up actually worsening or entrenching inequality.

Thoughts?

Why have the grant in the first place? Public schools are entirely funded by taxes. Just add it to the budget.

Unless there was some reason to include private schools that were non-religious.

Or really just write the grant to exclude tax exempt schools, since they already have a financial benefit.

So a tax exempt school took advantage of a badly written grant.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I think these things need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

If the playground is open and available to the public without religious constraints, it should be eligible for the same public grants as any other public playground. If it is not, then it is illegal to use public money to pay for it.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Should we tax the playground scenerio? (I say yes.)

I would have to agree with you on your second point. This can be extended to prayer in schools and the teaching of Creationism. No matter how it's framed it always seems to come up Christian prayer and the Christian story of creation that is touted. Didn't mean to derail your thread.

Humans are biased. Equality is an illusion. Folks have a bias towards family, race, ideology, politics, gender, sexual orientation, etc... People are going to act on their bias as far as they can get away with it.

It seems the more diversity is promoted the more tribal we become as a society.

If you actively work to exclude religion it's going to increase the bias among religious folks.

I think we need to support inclusion to reduce bias.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I think these things need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

If the playground is open and available to the public without religious constraints, it should be eligible for the same public grants as any other public playground. If it is not, then it is illegal to use public money to pay for it.

Sure but that would eliminate private schools. Like I said if it was only for public entities, there was no reason for a grant.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
I liked Sotomayers dissent. Our founding values are being eroded from within. And religion is driving it.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Sure but that would eliminate private schools. Like I said if it was only for public entities, there was no reason for a grant.
Grants are used to encourage specific social imperatives; in this case rubber recycling for a specific purpose. It has nothing to do with using public tax dollars to support private schools.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Why have the grant in the first place? Public schools are entirely funded by taxes. Just add it to the budget.
The grant was about tire recycling:

Missouri Department of Natural Resources

The state collected an environmental fee on tire purchases. A portion of that fee was used to encourage tire recycling by giving grants to organizations that use products made from recycled tires (like playground surfaces).
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think these things need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

If the playground is open and available to the public without religious constraints, it should be eligible for the same public grants as any other public playground. If it is not, then it is illegal to use public money to pay for it.
Public accessibility wasn't part of it. The grant program was about diverting tires from landfills by creating a market for recycled tire products. Improving playgrounds was just a side effect of this.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Public accessibility wasn't part of it. The grant program was about diverting tires from landfills by creating a market for recycled tire products. Improving playgrounds was just a side effect of this.
I understand. That's what grants are for: advancing some specific social imperative. But in this case the grants were being given specifically to public playgrounds. The key being that they are used by the public. Public tax dollar grants being used to advance a public service is both fair and reasonable. It only becomes unfair and unreasonable if the service is not being offered to the public, but is exclusive to a specific group. Because in that instance, the public is being made to support services that they are being unreasonably excluded from using.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I understand. That's what grants are for: advancing some specific social imperative. But in this case the grants were being given specifically to public playgrounds. The key being that they are used by the public. Public tax dollar grants being used to advance a public service is both fair and reasonable. It only becomes unfair and unreasonable if the service is not being offered to the public, but is exclusive to a specific group. Because in that instance, the public is being made to support services that they are being unreasonably excluded from using.
You have a misunderstanding of the program. I posted a link to the Missouri state government's page on the program a few posts back in my reply to Nakosis - maybe have a look at the guidelines. Public and private uses, non-profit and for-profit organizations are all eligible.

The grant program isn't just for public playgrounds. In fact, it isn't even just for playgrounds, period. Other projects that use recycled tire products are eligible: the web page gives examples of playgrounds, running trails/tracks, and horse stall floors, but I'm sure that isn't an exhaustive list.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Inspired by this thread, but I figured it deserves a thread of its own:

"Privatized profits, socialized losses" describes an economic condition where a company gets benefits without having to bear the corresponding risks and disadvantages. I think that a similar situation often occurs with religion.

A recent ruling about state grants for playgrounds brought up the idea of equal treatment of religious organizations: a church objected that they were being excluded from a program that would allow them to get a subsidy to resurface their playground with rubber from recycled tires. The church's lawsuit argued it was illegal to deny them the benefit solely because of their organization's religious nature.

At first blush, it seems like they're arguing for equal treatment of all organizations on their merits without regard to their religious or non-religious nature... i.e. secularism. However, a closer look suggests that this isn't the case: when we remove religion's special disadvantages but not its special benefits, we actually increase inequality overall. We're taking a class of organizations that already receive disproportionate net benefits and giving them even more net benefit.
Where did you get your ideas about the arguments the complainants made in Trinity Lutheran Church v. Comer?

If you were to discover that the complainants did not assert and the Court did not consider the arguments that you have characterized here, that blows your whole thesis here. Is that right?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I liked Sotomayers dissent. Our founding values are being eroded from within. And religion is driving it.
You should at least try to spell Justice Sotomayor's name correctly. Her dissent was premised on (1) dicta from, not the holding of, Everson; and (2) a misapplication of Mitchell, in which one must consider children of the community playing on playgrounds a "religious activity". This is why the majority on the Court did not agree with her understanding of the case or the case law.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Where did you get your ideas about the arguments the complainants made in Trinity Lutheran Church v. Comer?

I only referred to one argument - the one from Trinity Lutheran. From their written argument:

The State of Missouri has excluded The Learning Center from a recycling program that provides a safer playground for children solely because the preschool is operated by a church rather than a secular not-for-profit.

The State has made several important
concessions in this case. Number one, that the policy in this case is not facially neutral, and number two, that based on their religious character, churches are not eligible for the benefit here.

This admitted discrimination against religion violates this Court's Free Exercise Principles.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2016/15-577_l64n.pdf

If you were to discover that the complainants did not assert and the Court did not consider the arguments that you have characterized here, that blows your whole thesis here. Is that right?
Except they did, so I don't see the point in dealing with your hypothetical scenario.
 
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