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the importance on the distinction between revelation in Hinduism and Islam

ngupta

title used by customer
From what I understand, in my humble opinion, I would think that it is important to know the understanding surrounding the revelation of the Vedas and it is different from the Abrahamic traditions. It is common to speak of "holy books" and them being of revealed nature. Hinduism and the 3 Abrahamic religions are the major religions of the world. In these religions there is a belief in a Supreme Deity and their primary texts are based on the concept of revelations.

In Hinduism the persons who reveal the verses of the Vedas are known in Sanskrit as Rishis. Whereas it is said that Prophets or Messengers acquire revelations from the respective Deities of the Abrahamic religions.

Before I go on to mark the distinction. I would like Muslims, Christians and Jews to go ahead and correct me regarding Islamic, Christian and Jewish beliefs with regards to their Prophets and the revelations, if you find that I have not accurately described such beliefs in your tradition.



Like Islam, Hindus believe in selected individuals that reveal the verses of their most authoritative scripture but unlike Muslims, Hindus do not have every spiritual knowledge due to their Prophets through their words contained in the form of the single primary holy book but instead there are many types of spiritual persons such as Rishis(themselves of different spiritual ranks), Munis and Yogis. And what I mean here is that, the spiritual persons that are often mentioned in Islam are Prophets. And that is not the case in Hinduism with regards to our Rishis. Not everything spiritually significant entirely is tied to the Rishis nor does something spiritual hold special merit through its attribution to the Rishis. Or rather unlike Prophets in Islam who are held in commonplace. And also spiritual knowledge are found in a vast array within the main Hindu compendium of sacred literature rather than being in the revelations of Vedas alone.

In Islam, the Quran is the word of Allah and the Hadith the collection of the sayings of Muhammad. Its a two-fold set of primary texts. Muhammad, as a Prophet in Islam, is more personal and well known to Muslims through the two texts. That isn't the case in Hinduism with our Rishis. There is a mystery that surrounds them in the sense that they dont connect entirely with the rest of the mortals in relatable day-to-day sense. They make their presence mostly spiritually and the narration about them isnt extensive, whatever we know of them is whatever that is relevant. Their place in our religion is their elevated position as men at highest state of spirituality.

The emphasis in Abrahamic religions is that of God Himself talking and through the Prophets. That is not the case in Hinduism. In Hinduism the reverence towards the Rishi is not that somehow he happened to be "chosen" but rather that he elevated himself through the direction of his focus spiritually and attaining his status as one who is able to receive the truth.

The "word of God" is said to be the Torah, or Bible or Quran. That is not the case with Hinduism. Vedas are not said to be "the [personal]word of God". The Gita, where God in his incarnation directly speaks Himself in is literally in Sanskrit "the word of God".

In the Torah, Bible and Quran, God speaks to the Prophets and this is the revelation. The Vedas are what the Rishis "heard". In Abrahamic scriptures the format goes "God said this", "God said that", "the Prophet said this", "the Prophet said that", "and then God went", "and then God did this or that". Narration is generally limited to the Puranas.

In Abrahamic religions the basis of the revelation of the scripture is the personal communication of God to people through the Prophets. Its more like God intending to speak what He felt like for that given context and time. But the general mode of transmition in abrahamic religions goes like this. God > angels > prophets.

There are absolutely no middle men in Hinduism. The Rishis "heard" the truth of the Vedas. The Rishis were able to attain the truth via their high spiritual states of consciousness. They are the very breathe of Brahman or God.

And unlike Abrahamic religions where we are aware of the scribes, Vedas were transmitted orally and its transcription into literal form was very much later in history and we do not know its process and who we can attribute them to. And theologically, various texts are what they are for various reasons. In Abrahamic religions, there are the revealed scriptures which Islam views in succession(Torah, Bible then Quran) and to be given in complete with their own titles(Torah, Bible given as Pslams and Gospels). In Hinduism, its an unbroken fulfillment of various Rishis rising in the ranks of the Brahmins revealing verses as individuals which ultimately culminated into the Vedas. In Islam, the prophets are sent by Allah for a given age upon which the succeeding prophets revelations overwrite his predecessors(Quran takes over the previous). Whereas in Hinduism, the Vedas are considered eternal and have no authorship.
 

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
I think you are quite correct at the exoteric level of this distinction between various religions. However, if you scratch beyond theology, slowly the distinction wanes away at the esoteric level. I will try to post more about this later. For the moment, I want to say there is a famous book on this, it is Fritjhof Schuon's "The transcendent unity of religions".
 

Alulu

Member
I liked your opening post and comparing Islam and Hinduism in this regard.
I agree with many things you wrote and the different concepts between these two world religions.

I think the concept of 'rishis' as you explained can be compared with 'awliyaa' in Islam and Quran. Roughly translated as friends of God, or saints. They are mentioned in the Quran as being spiritually very close to God and described by certain spiritual characteristics. In Islamic theology and historic texts these friends of God are everywhere. They acquire this high spiritual state by their continious servitude to God. Although they do NOT receive any direct relevation of God (this is indeed solely for prophets) they are believed to be inspired ot get to spiritual truths. This is called kashf, which means discover if roughly transl
ated in Arabic. Therefore many awliyaa/friends of God have left writings that contain alot of spirituality about the path that leads to this high state of being God's servant. Ultimate freedom, or enlightenment as some could call it, is considered to be in the total submission and servitude of the Creator. As many of these friends of God indicated as well in their writings, poems etc.

I would like to ask whether the Veda's are considered holy or the message in it as a holy truth?
Where is the line between seeing it as a path to enlightenment set out by rishis on one hand and containing (absolute) truths about nature of the Creator one the other hand? Because i have read some verses that clearly describe the Creator. Would this desciption in the Veda be considered something as an absolute truth or an more of an ATTEMPT by a rishi to describe the Divine in his path to enlightenment and therefore this description open for debate whether it is right, or not.
 
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Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I would like to ask whether the Veda's are considered holy or the message in it as a holy truth?

The Vedas are believed to contain eternal truths about God. The 4 Vedas are not to be taken literally. They are layered with deep meaning, which is where the Upanishads come into place as commentaries of the Vedas.

Where is the line between seeing it as a path to enlightenment set out by rishis on one hand and containing (absolute) truths about nature of the Creator one the other hand? Because i have read some verses that clearly describe the Creator. Would this desciption in the Veda be considered something as an absolute truth or an more of an ATTEMPT by a rishi to describe the Divine in his path to enlightenment and therefore this description open for debate whether it is right, or not.

I think different people will have a different opinion here. I think that descriptions of God are a mix of literal and allegorical. There are descriptions in some scriptures that actually state that the verse is not accurate because it is impossible for the mind to fathom the actual reality.

A common thread that I notice is that descriptions of God and life are helpful, but they are not the essential part of religion. What I see as emphasised is that true knowledge of God and reality can only be realised by the individual and so what is most important in our spirituality is the process by which we come to know God and Self. Anything regarding debates on the nature of God and dogma is ultimately time wasted for the unrealised person.
 

K.Venugopal

Immobile Wanderer
The difference between Hinduism and Islam is that Hinduism is about self-discovery whereas Islam is about living according to the tenets of the Quran. In Hinduism the seeker has to discover himself whereas in Islam the seeker has to understand the Quran. In Hinduism the seeker may take recourse to all sorts of aids like scriptures, idol worship, following the guru etc. in discovering himself. In Islam, the seeker has no choice but to understand the Quran and live accordingly. In short, Hindu orientation is towards discovery of the truth within while Islamic orientation is following the path already set out in the Quran.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
The difference between Hinduism and Islam is that Hinduism is about self-discovery whereas Islam is about living according to the tenets of the Quran. In Hinduism the seeker has to discover himself whereas in Islam the seeker has to understand the Quran. In Hinduism the seeker may take recourse to all sorts of aids like scriptures, idol worship, following the guru etc. in discovering himself. In Islam, the seeker has no choice but to understand the Quran and live accordingly. In short, Hindu orientation is towards discovery of the truth within while Islamic orientation is following the path already set out in the Quran.

Very well said and summarised.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The difference between Hinduism and Islam is that Hinduism is about self-discovery whereas Islam is about living according to the tenets of the Quran. In Hinduism the seeker has to discover himself whereas in Islam the seeker has to understand the Quran. In Hinduism the seeker may take recourse to all sorts of aids like scriptures, idol worship, following the guru etc. in discovering himself. In Islam, the seeker has no choice but to understand the Quran and live accordingly. In short, Hindu orientation is towards discovery of the truth within while Islamic orientation is following the path already set out in the Quran.

I'm not really trying to debate, but i'll just say i disagree. I think this is an oversimplified, inaccurate, and a narrow view of the Islamic perspective, which is fine since i assume you didn't give it as much study as Hinduism.

Islam is not about studying the Quran, the whole purpose of the Quran is to help us in our purpose in life.

I'd have trouble summarizing what Islam is all about, but if i have to i would choose to say its all about seeking to be a person who is alongside his way of living and actions, generally, a betterment for this world. A goal or purpose which includes studies and reflections of various things, including the self amongst other things.

So not only does Islam include what you're talking about, but it also includes more.
 
Hinduism and Islam, in their goals, do not seem far off. I can speak from the Vaishnava standpoint, but I can not speak for the other kinds of Hindus out there.

Both Vaishnavism and Islam see that Scripture is and can be authoritative, and that there are both external and hidden meanings laid in the texts. However, both also see that the words of Scripture are reverberated throughout the entire universes.

Every verse in the Quran is an 'ayat' or a 'sign of Allah', and these signs, as said in the same Quran, can also be found in the Earth for those who can see. Every aspect of creation therefore can teach about Allah, and thus the Quran is only an external symbol of the internal reality.

In the same way, Vishnu is not limited to the Vedas. He Himself says in the Gita, that He is the Creator of the Veda, and one who knows Him in truth, knows the entirety of the Veda. Thus, the Vedic literatures should be seen as fingers pointing to the moon, and not the moon itself. And Muhammad the Prophet split the moon in half. ;)

In Vaishnavism, God comes either as Himself, as an incarnation, or sends an empowered devotee or messenger to a) restore the principles of religion, and b) to annihilate demonic mentality and abolish social teachings which cloud up true Dharma. In Islam, God reveals Himself through sending Messengers to every culture in every age to teach about God's truth as Tawhid.

The difference that I see in Scripture is that while Muslims will see Qur'an as the finality of Scripture, the be-all-and-end-all and best Revelation for humankind, the Vaishnava will see that any Scripture that speaks of the nature of God is to be considered reverential, but will differ according to gradations of God realisation, and thus culminating in the Vedic literatures as the sublime essence of realising the truth of God.
 

ngupta

title used by customer
I think you are quite correct at the exoteric level of this distinction between various religions. However, if you scratch beyond theology, slowly the distinction wanes away at the esoteric level. I will try to post more about this later. For the moment, I want to say there is a famous book on this, it is Fritjhof Schuon's "The transcendent unity of religions".

Thanks for the link. And I agree that truth present elsewhere is also acceptable because its says the same.
 

ngupta

title used by customer
I think the concept of 'rishis' as you explained can be compared with 'awliyaa' in Islam and Quran. Roughly translated as friends of God, or saints. They are mentioned in the Quran as being spiritually very close to God and described by certain spiritual characteristics. In Islamic theology and historic texts these friends of God are everywhere. They acquire this high spiritual state by their continious servitude to God.

Although they do NOT receive any direct relevation of God (this is indeed solely for prophets) they are believed to be inspired ot get to spiritual truths.

No. We do not believe that Rishis were "inspired". We believe that they received direct revelations. Hinduism was the first religion to speak of revelation. It would be ironic to downplay the very place where the first instance of such a thing was introduced.

I would like to ask whether the Veda's are considered holy or the message in it as a holy truth?

We don't use the term "message". The Vedas literally mean Knowledge. I believe the Bhagavad Gita is more of a message.
 

ngupta

title used by customer
The 4 Vedas are not to be taken literally.

And who are you to say that?

I think different people will have a different opinion here. I think that descriptions of God are a mix of literal and allegorical. There are descriptions in some scriptures that actually state that the verse is not accurate because it is impossible for the mind to fathom the actual reality.

A common thread that I notice is that descriptions of God and life are helpful, but they are not the essential part of religion. What I see as emphasised is that true knowledge of God and reality can only be realised by the individual and so what is most important in our spirituality is the process by which we come to know God and Self. Anything regarding debates on the nature of God and dogma is ultimately time wasted for the unrealised person.

A common "thread"?

As for the bolded, do you read what you type?
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
And who are you to say that?

A Hindu who has never met another Hindu that takes the Vedas literally.

As for the bolded, do you read what you type?

Yes, and I stick by it. The main point of Hindu religion is to Realise God and Self. One can only do this through Yogic sciences, not by obsessing over what colour God's skin is or if he has 2 or 4 arms or if his name is Shiva, Vishni or Shakti.

If you disagree, I am happy to hear your argument.
 

ngupta

title used by customer
The difference between Hinduism and Islam is that Hinduism is about self-discovery whereas Islam is about living according to the tenets of the Quran. In Hinduism the seeker has to discover himself whereas in Islam the seeker has to understand the Quran. In Hinduism the seeker may take recourse to all sorts of aids like scriptures, idol worship, following the guru etc. in discovering himself. In Islam, the seeker has no choice but to understand the Quran and live accordingly. In short, Hindu orientation is towards discovery of the truth within while Islamic orientation is following the path already set out in the Quran.

Thats an excellent post and very true. I have thought about this before. I think this is the glaringly obvious difference.

Which is why I think Hinduism is much harder and requires greater strength to perservere and follow. You really have to take your own responsibility and set out on the journey by yourself and figure things out alone. The emphasis really is on the individual aspirant. If you think its about fitting it and being popular then feggedaboudit'.

All a Muslim has to do is follow what is laid out before him. The emphasis is on being part of a community. All the talk about the Ummah, Muslim "brothers" and "sisters", dawah, conversion, obligatory mosque prayer, obligatory charity etc

I think the reason is because Hinduism doesnt conceal but adheres very strongly to the spiritual conclusion, that is it "you" who is doing all of this, and it is "you" who ultimately attains moksha.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thats an excellent post and very true. I have thought about this before. I think this is the glaringly obvious difference.

Which is why I think Hinduism is much harder and requires greater strength to perservere and follow. You really have to take your own responsibility and set out on the journey by yourself and figure things out alone. The emphasis really is on the individual aspirant. If you think its about fitting it and being popular then feggedaboudit'.

All a Muslim has to do is follow what is laid out before him. The emphasis is on being part of a community. All the talk about the Ummah, Muslim "brothers" and "sisters", dawah, conversion, obligatory mosque prayer, obligatory charity etc

I think the reason is because Hinduism doesnt conceal but adheres very strongly to the spiritual conclusion, that is it "you" who is doing all of this, and it is "you" who ultimately attains moksha.

Great post.

Why didn't you just make your OP "Hinduism is superior to Islam" and save people the time of reading all this?

Would you like me to misrepresent Hinduism in the same over-simplified and inaccurate manner based mostly on ignorance and not give it the just reading and description too?

Seriously though, its astounding to read through posts like this, especially putting in mind your complaint about some Abrahamic religious followers misrepresenting Hinduism in another thread.
 

ngupta

title used by customer
Great post.

Why didn't you just make your OP "Hinduism is superior to Islam" and save people the time of reading all this?

Would you like me to misrepresent Hinduism in the same over-simplified and inaccurate manner based mostly on ignorance and not give it the just reading and description too?

Seriously though, its astounding to read through posts like this, especially putting in mind your complaint about some Abrahamic religious followers misrepresenting Hinduism in another thread.

I didnt mean to offend you man. Perhaps I should had worded in a different manner. I don't believe that Hinduism is superior to any other religion. Because our God is also your God, and religion should not be about competition. Why would I want to have animosity or enemies?

Also tell me, have I said anything false about what I stated about Muslims and Islam? Isn't it true that Hindus for the most part are as not as community oriented as Muslims. You can actually choose to respond that the above mentioned points are positive. I see that Muslims take it as something positive and "feel-good".

In fact I'll apply the same with Hare Krishnas. They go around conferring titles on themselves. Refer to each other with extravagant praises. I have more to criticise about them.
 

ngupta

title used by customer
A Hindu who has never met another Hindu that takes the Vedas literally.

People will dismiss the significance of the scripture by saying its not really literal. Then they will say that its not really true. You keeping on pushing it further and further and you will have people that will say that its all bogus altogether. So I think people have to be careful in how they say it.
 

ngupta

title used by customer
However, both also see that the words of Scripture are reverberated throughout the entire universes.

How exactly do Muslims say that the Quran "reverberates"?

and thus the Quran is only an external symbol of the internal reality.

Sounds Hinduish; "external symbol of internal reality".

He Himself says in the Gita, that He is the Creator of the Veda,

Can you please quote the verse? I've told that the Vedas are uncreated.

The difference that I see in Scripture is that while Muslims will see Qur'an as the finality of Scripture, the be-all-and-end-all and best Revelation for humankind, the Vaishnava will see that any Scripture that speaks of the nature of God is to be considered reverential, but will differ according to gradations of God realisation, and thus culminating in the Vedic literatures as the sublime essence of realising the truth of God.

Well put.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
People will dismiss the significance of the scripture by saying its not really literal. Then they will say that its not really true. You keeping on pushing it further and further and you will have people that will say that its all bogus altogether. So I think people have to be careful in how they say it.

I think that the Vedas are incredibly significant. They are so full of incredible meaning and philosophy. But only if we see the allegorical side of them. The literal interpretation is fairly meaningless and even confusing, imo. It's important to understand their allegorical nature. That's what I meant.
 
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