The Inconvenient Truth About Jews From Arab Lands: They Were Expelled

[RocketJSquirell]

There is no legitimate criticism of Zionism.

There is legitimate criticism of Israeli policy. There is legitimate criticism of Israeli military action. There is legitimate criticism of the words or actions of individuals who make decisions about Israeli government. There are all kinds of legitimate criticisms about politics.

But unless you disagree with the entire concept of national self-determination of peoples, there is no legitimate criticism of Zionism.

This is 100% correct.
Zionism is the national movement of the Jewish people. Before you criticize Zionism you must ask yourself if you criticize any other national movement and if so on what basis. Do you criticize Russian nationalism? Norwegian nationalism? French nationalism? Tibetan nationalism? Kurdish nationalism? Canadian nationalism? Turkish nationalism? Iranian nationalism? American nationalism? etc.... Do you have a consistent, rational, and fact based criteria for your criticism? Unless you are completely anti-nationalist (you reject all ideas of statehood and national affiliation, including that of the nation in which you live) criticizing Zionism is almost certainly illegitimate.

One of the great things about Zionism is that unlike most other national movements ( say, the Arab Palestinian national movement) it consciously embraces diversity and respect for minority populations. This is reflected in the Israeli declaration of establishment (and elsewhere)

"THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPo...tion of Establishment of State of Israel.aspx

One can certainly question whether the government of Israel has been able to live up to its goals set forth in the Declaration, whether a particular policy or law promotes or does not promote those goals, whether there is a better way of achieving those goals, etc.... However, in order to avoid being a hypocrite, at best, or an anti-Israel hater, at worst, I would urge you to apply the same standard to the actions of the Israeli government that you apply to the actions of all other governments and that you criticize actual policies, laws and practices, not fictitious ones.

 

[RocketJSquirell]

Lyndon
Wikipedia is not a particularly good source for anything which is at all controversial. It is great if you want to look up the date of Norman invasion of England, but that is about it.

Perhaps you could be bothered to read this article. It is short. http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2008/04/the_expulsion_libel_1948_arab.html

"there was never any mass expulsion of the Arab population as a whole from Palestine/Israel, or from any region or part of Palestine/Israel, either during the Israeli War of Independence in 1947 - 49(the usual time-frame given by the anti-Israel "revisionist" or "new" historians for the alleged expulsion) or at any other time, and that it was never the policy or objective of Israel's government to make Israel or Palestine "Arab-free," or of "ethnically cleansing" the country of Arabs. If there ever was such a policy, then it would be impossible to explain how 1.4 million Arabs live in what is now sovereign Israeli territory today -- many more than lived in the same territory before the state of Israel was founded."

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/04/the_expulsion_libel_1948_arab.html#ixzz3qVHvWukI

Facts matter.

 

[Lyndon]

Why do all your sources have to be so right wing, can't find reasonable articles to support your position???

 

[RocketJSquirell]

Lyndon
The Forward is a liberal publication (When it was founded it was a Socialist Yiddish newspaper.). The American Thinker is a conservative publication. Thus in this thread, I have cited one liberal and one conservative article. Amazingly, since they are both fact based they make basically the same point. What is your excuse?

 

[Lyndon]

My excuse is I don't believe anything you are printing.

 

[Flankerl]

>*whine whine* your sources are one-sided
>here take my one-sided sources
>more whining

Khaybar Khaybar ya yahud, Jaish Muhammad saya'ud!

 

[Lyndon]

This is 100% correct.
Zionism is the national movement of the Jewish people. Before you criticize Zionism you must ask yourself if you criticize any other national movement and if so on what basis. Do you criticize Russian nationalism? Norwegian nationalism? French nationalism? Tibetan nationalism? Kurdish nationalism? Canadian nationalism? Turkish nationalism? Iranian nationalism? American nationalism? etc.... Do you have a consistent, rational, and fact based criteria for your criticism? Unless you are completely anti-nationalist (you reject all ideas of statehood and national affiliation, including that of the nation in which you live) criticizing Zionism is almost certainly illegitimate.

One of the great things about Zionism is that unlike most other national movements ( say, the Arab Palestinian national movement) it consciously embraces diversity and respect for minority populations. This is reflected in the Israeli declaration of establishment (and elsewhere)

"THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Peace/Guide/Pages/Declaration of Establishment of State of Israel.aspx

One can certainly question whether the government of Israel has been able to live up to its goals set forth in the Declaration, whether a particular policy or law promotes or does not promote those goals, whether there is a better way of achieving those goals, etc.... However, in order to avoid being a hypocrite, at best, or an anti-Israel hater, at worst, I would urge you to apply the same standard to the actions of the Israeli government that you apply to the actions of all other governments and that you criticize actual policies, laws and practices, not fictitious ones.

I hate most all forms of nationalism, I'm an equal opportunity hater, I hate American nationalism just like Zionism.

 

[RocketJSquirell]

Lyndon - In advancing and promoting you hatred of American nationalism are you as willing to tell lies as you are in promoting and advancing your hatred of Zionism?
Are you always immune to facts, or is it just when we are discussing nationalism? Is it just when we are discussing Zionism? I only ask because your attitude is identical to climate change deniers, moon landing skeptics, and creationists.

 

[Shusha]

I hate most all forms of nationalism, I'm an equal opportunity hater, I hate American nationalism just like Zionism.

I might suggest that you be clear when discussing nationalism, then, and say, perhaps, "I oppose Zionism, just as I oppose all forms of national self-determination". It will prevent some confusion. There is a very great difference between saying, "I oppose Zionism" and saying, "I oppose Zionism AND Palestinianism".

Out of curiosity, what would suggest as an alternative to national self-determination as a model of government? And do you think your preferred model can be realistically achieved?

 

[columbus]

I hate most all forms of nationalism, I'm an equal opportunity hater, I hate American nationalism just like Zionism.

What makes you look so much like a bigot is that you don't apply the same standards to everyone.
You will say demonstrably incorrect things about Israel and Zionists. But never have I seen you make similar statements about Muslim culture, violence, or government.
Maybe I am missing something. Show me what it is, please.
Tom

 

[Lyndon]

Likewise I have never seen you say anything negative about the Israeli treatment of Palestinians.......

 

[RocketJSquirell]

Lyndon - When Israel treats Palestinians in a negative manner, I am be the first to criticize it. Somehow, improving living conditions for a population which says it wants to destroy your country and commit genocide seems pretty fair. So does providing healthcare, educational opportunities, employment at fair wages, and complete political autonomy seems pretty fair. Are there problems? Yes. Are the problems entirely the fault of the Israelis? No. Telling lies, as you do, does not help the situation. What do you think is the proper response to a population which refuses to accept the independent stat they say they want? What do you think is the proper response to a population which is intent on committing genocide and which acts it out through random attacks on civilians? What do you think the proper response is to a population which claims the holiest Jewish site is entirely and solely muslim and which prevents Jews and Christians from peacefully visiting that site? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Lyndon]

So you're saying its a lie that there were one million less Arabs in Israel after the 1948 war.

 

[RocketJSquirell]

Lyndon - It is a lie that the Arabs were forced out by Israel. Did you even read the articles I provided? Can you?

 

[Lyndon]

So the Arabs were just going on a vacation out of Israel, what were they doing??

The Arabs were fleeing a Jewish government of Palestine, given how the one's that stayed behind have been treated, it seems they made a pretty good decision.

 

[RocketJSquirell]

Lyndon - No the Arabs were 1. following the directions they were given by their leaders, 2. fleeing the invading Arab armies. Please read the histories, I posted. It is impossible to have a discussion with someone who insists on being fact free.

 

[MARCELLO]

This is one of the saddest things in life. Jews were doing much more better rather than Europe when they were in arabic land (pls do not expose me goggled ugly infos).

Oh Hashem,Oh Allah ,I know You mean the same. Pls end this meaningless fight. Bring peace to arabs and jews and do it now,please.

Amen

 

[rosends]

Some additional reading on the matter. http://www.danielpipes.org/9931/palestine-israel-stealing-purchasing
Even if you don't like the author, it is unreasonable to ignore the citations.

 

[MARCELLO]

So the Arabs were just going on a vacation out of Israel, what were they doing??

The Arabs were fleeing a Jewish government of Palestine, given how the one's that stayed behind have been treated, it seems they made a pretty good decision.

Dear Lyndon,

Every reason of these problems were because of muslims,because they were soooooo little educated. They are still tribal and willing to stay uneducated ( my calender says we are in in 2015 ,but muslims say it is still milleniums ago)

But do they deserve what's happening actually at the moment?

Of course not.

Have you ever seen an arab/muslim even with a british or usa passport treated in even our '' so called east europe'' Cats and dogs have more privileges. This is the truth. In case they protest or ask for their rights,the police will come to make a good examinations.

 

[Lyndon]

Being educated indicates not accepting lies for explanations, so I can't see a lot of Israeli's doing any better than Palestinians in this respect.