The Inexplicable Success of Capitalist Indoctrination

[Heyo]

Think of democracy as representative government.
Russia has voting, but isn't representative.
I dislike the leaders elected in USA, but they
represent the populace.

LOL

But you corrected yourself already.

Leaders generally carry out the
wishes of those who elect them.

I can get behind that - if we can agree that it's not the populace who elects the leaders.

Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens | Perspectives on Politics | Cambridge Core

 

[Shadow Wolf]

LOL

But you corrected yourself already.

I can get behind that - if we can agree that it's not the populace who elects the leaders.

Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens | Perspectives on Politics | Cambridge Core

The very nature of the American system effectively silences vast swathes and chunks of the population.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Leaders generally carry out the
wishes of those who elect them.

Good leaders might,
But that is rarely thee case
At best it is a compromise between agreement and disagreement.

The party system ensures that opinion is divided
Often between advantaged and disadvantaged by policy.

In the USA the rich are grossly over represented by the system.

 

[Revoltingest]

Everyone who thinks those like Bill Gates (who came from riches) counts as a rags to riches story.

Everyone, eh.
That's the same person who says all billionaires
are evil, & they shouldn't be allowed to be rich.

I've no respect for everyone.

It's not true. Few work harder than farmers amd construction crews, the sciences tend to soak up the brains, but they aren't he wealthiest people out there.

Going by impressions of people you don't even know, eh.
I know only one guy who became worth hundreds of
millions. Started with nothing. Worked his pigu off
more than any farmer or construction worker I know.

You have better odds of getting rich by playing the lottery than you do by working hard.

Working hard is only an element of success.
Working smart is the other.

Yes, the self made man has been disproven.

I personally know 1 counter-example.
You dun been busted!

We are the combined efforts of everyone we've ever known (Chuck Palahniuk), amd without a society and others we have nothing (the wealthy of ancient Greece realized and accepted this).

People are paid for their labor.
Still, the envious want a share of others' wealth.
Work for it, instead of clamoring for it.

It's not good as taking more than you need leads to problems for the one doing it and others as well.

I like having more than I need.
Don't be jealous of those who work for it.

And I've worked with a lot of people who are poor through no doing of their own (usually physicaland mental health woes).

And I've hired poor folk who make obviously
terrible decisions. That's in addition to
lacking ambition & desire to improve.

If we were paid in accordance to market value wed generally be paid more (with higher prices, but it's what proper First World countries do).

A problem is that many low paid types believe
they're worth more than they really are.

 

[Revoltingest]

LOL

But you corrected yourself already.

I can get behind that - if we can agree that it's not the populace who elects the leaders.

Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens | Perspectives on Politics | Cambridge Core

You seem to believe that someone other
than voters pick our leaders. That's conspiracy
territory. Most people approve of what's going
on. It only appears otherwise because that
majority is slim, & the minority is angry & vocal.

As you can observe, I generally dislike results of
democracy. The will of the people is the will of
a bunch of pigu. Bad as democracy is, other
systems are proven even worse.

 

[Revoltingest]

Good leaders might,
But that is rarely thee case

It's nearly always the case.
Bad leaders are bad because voters want bad things.
Eg, Obama was elected on an anti-war platform.
He was re-elected for continuing & even "surging" the wars.
Voters got what they wanted....more war.
Biden was elected for supporting apartheid & human rights
violations in Gaza. He'll likely win for supporting genocide.
Voters see. Voters like.

 

[Heyo]

You seem to believe that someone other
than voters pick our leaders. That's conspiracy
territory.

You can pick your leader again in November. It seems you'll have the choice between the two finest people the US can present to you for voting. Both hand-selected by voters from among hundreds of other candidates ...

Most people approve of what's going
on. It only appears otherwise because that
majority is slim, & the minority is angry & vocal.

You don't trust polls, do you? Or let me put it another way: you don't trust people to say what they really want, you know better?

As you can observe, I generally dislike results of
democracy. The will of the people is the will of
a bunch of pigu.

There is that word again. I couldn't find it in a dictionary. (Probably used the wrong ones.) What's a pigu and how do you know?

 

[Stevicus]

You can pick your leader again in November. It seems you'll have the choice between the two finest people the US can present to you for voting. Both hand-selected by voters from among hundreds of other candidates ...

Ugh!

You don't trust polls, do you? Or let me put it another way: you don't trust people to say what they really want, you know better?

There is that word again. I couldn't find it in a dictionary. (Probably used the wrong ones.) What's a pigu and how do you know?

PIGU - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Phosphatidylinositol glycan anchor biosynthesis class U protein is a protein that in humans is encoded by the PIGU gene.[5][6][7]

 

[Revoltingest]

You can pick your leader again in November. It seems you'll have the choice between the two finest people the US can present to you for voting. Both hand-selected by voters from among hundreds of other candidates ...

Maybe you don't know how our party system works.
Ordinary voters choose who runs in the primaries.
The winner becomes that party's candidate in November.
At that point, the only alternatives are 3rd party.
That's how I'm voting this time.

You don't trust polls, do you?

I trust them to be an approximate
measure of popularity at one point
in time.

Or let me put it another way: you don't trust people to say what they really want, you know better?

I know that poll results are influenced
by how the question is phrased. And
also that what people believe during
answering such questions can be at odds
with how they feel when they vote.

There is that word again. I couldn't find it in a dictionary. (Probably used the wrong ones.) What's a pigu and how do you know?

"Pigu" won't be in an English dictionary.
It's derrogatory.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Everyone, eh.
That's the same person who says all billionaires
are evil, & they shouldn't be allowed to be rich.

I've no respect for everyone.

Yup. In this case it's everyone as Bill Gates--Trump is another common examples--didn't come from rags. There are some rags to riches stories, but the mythology has thrown many who come from wealth into the ranks of coming from rags.

Going by impressions of people you don't even know, eh.
I know only one guy who became worth hundreds of
millions. Started with nothing. Worked his pigu off
more than any farmer or construction worker I know.

You only know one rich guy? They worked hard, it's true, but I also know they didn't always work hard, smart or ethically amd free of corruption for it.
I also know they had others helping them get there, from laywers to yes men down to commom laborers who go on ahead with illegal orders anyways.

Working hard is only an element of success.
Working smart is the other.

Working smarter helps. But it probably won't make you rich.

I personally know 1 counter-example.
You dun been busted!

There's no such thing as a self made man.

People are paid for their labor.
Still, the envious want a share of others' wealth.
Work for it, instead of clamoring for it.

Yes, people are paid for their labor. But it's not based on any notion of market value.

I like having more than I need.
Don't be jealous of those who work for it.

Et tu with such a moral judgement?
Amd do I really seem like the type to be jealous over someone giving their life to work to have a big TV?

And I've hired poor folk who make obviously
terrible decisions. That's in addition to
lacking ambition & desire to improve.

You have anecdotal evidence. It happens but it says nothing of long term or wider trends.

A problem is that many low paid types believe
they're worth more than they really are.

They are worth at least enough, as proper First World countries have decided, to not be stuck with low wages that get subsidized by customer through tipping and by the tax payers through welfare benefits for the poor.

 

[Revoltingest]

You only know one rich guy?

Only one with hundreds of millions.

They worked hard, it's true, but I also know they didn't always work hard, smart or ethically amd free of corruption for it.

You don't even know him, yet you judge him.

I also know they had others helping them get there, from laywers to yes men down to commom laborers who go on ahead with illegal orders anyways.

To hire employees & contractors doesn't diminish
the success of building a company from nothing.

Working smarter helps. But it probably won't make you rich.

There's no such thing as a self made man.

Perhaps you just don't know it can happen
because you never met any. I have.

Yes, people are paid for their labor. But it's not based on any notion of market value.

Et tu with such a moral judgement?
Amd do I really seem like the type to be jealous over someone giving their life to work to have a big TV?

You have anecdotal evidence. It happens but it says nothing of long term or wider trends.

They are worth at least enough, as proper First World countries have decided, to not be stuck with low wages that get subsidized by customer through tipping and by the tax payers through welfare benefits for the poor.

I sense hostility for the wealthy
leading to prejudice against all.

 

[siti]

Also, I noted that you were completely unable to give any logical or just reason why any single human on this planet should be allowed to amass more than 30-50 million worth of personal wealth.

I am also at a loss when it comes to providing a logical or just reason why anyone should be allowed to amass $29,999,99...perhaps you can elucidate why you think that figure would be logically and morally justified?

 

[Revoltingest]

I am also at a loss when it comes to providing a logical or just reason why anyone should be allowed to amass $29,999,99...perhaps you can elucidate why you think that figure would be logically and morally justified?

Sure...
Giving government the power to limit
wealth would cause problems that
exceed any benefits. That would be
both immoral & illogical.

 

[ajay0]

I don't know how affluent the average RFer is, but I think it's safe to assume that most of us are not in the 1% or even only the 10% wealthiest of our societies. But I have noticed that quite a few defend inadequate taxation of the rich. It reminds me of Stockholm Syndrome, or of mistreated people who defend their oppressors.
We are tribal in other ways, but in the case of capitalism so many of the have-not betray their tribe and fight for the tribe of the haves.

Why is that? How have the ultrarich managed to convince the majority that they and their wealth are untouchable?

Corporate owned media probably has done a good job in this said indoctrination programme.

In a capitalist society the mass media are capitalist institutions. The fact that these institutions reflect the ideology of dominant economic interests is hardly surprising. ~ Noam Chomsky

“The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses.” ~ Malcolm X

The press is so powerful in its image-making role, it can make the criminal look like he's a the victim and make the victim look like he's the criminal. This is the press, an irresponsible press. It will make the criminal look like he's the victim and make the victim look like he's the criminal. If you aren't careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.~ Malcolm X

He who controls the media controls the minds of the public. ~ Noam Chomsky,

“Large corporations have resources to influence media and overwhelm the political process, and do so accordingly.” ~ Noam Chomsky

Also the public or masses lack the intelligence and capacities for leadership, self-direction and self-organisation due to lack of self-awareness, education and social conditioning . Those who have the intelligence and capacities focus on being capitalists themselves instead of developing public accountability and transparency.

Stratocratic and plutocratic entities have also empowered themselves to the point that no one dares to bring them into account.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The administrators of china have always been based on competitive examinations. From then on promotion is based on results.
Historically the regional governors were selected by ability from the most powerful families and chosen by the emperor. The emperor was a member of the most powerful family of all, based on strength of arms.and alliances.
More recently the leader is based on previous results in lower positions combined with the approval votes of their peers.

Unlike modern day USA where money is the prime factor in the choice and selection of leaders. Those who supply the money expect to be repaid in benefits. This is a system based on corruption.

 

[Revoltingest]

The administrators of china have always been based on competitive examinations. From then on promotion is based on results.
Historically the regional governors were selected by ability from the most powerful families and chosen by the emperor. The emperor was a member of the most powerful family of all, based on strength of arms.and alliances.
More recently the leader is based on previous results in lower positions combined with the approval votes of their peers.

Unlike modern day USA where money is the prime factor in the choice and selection of leaders. Those who supply the money expect to be repaid in benefits. This is a system based on corruption.

Would you prefer that USA emulate
the Chinese governmental structure?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don't know how affluent the average RFer is, but I think it's safe to assume that most of us are not in the 1% or even only the 10% wealthiest of our societies. But I have noticed that quite a few defend inadequate taxation of the rich. It reminds me of Stockholm Syndrome, or of mistreated people who defend their oppressors.
We are tribal in other ways, but in the case of capitalism so many of the have-not betray their tribe and fight for the tribe of the haves.

Why is that? How have the ultrarich managed to convince the majority that they and their wealth are untouchable?

First, I'm not one of those who would defend inadequate taxing of the super-rich.

But to answer your question, I think part of it is the idea that such wealth is in principle attainable for anybody who has a good enough idea.
There is this idea that you can become super-duper wealthy and be entirely "self made".

This is the image that is held up from guys like Marky Suckerburg. But off course, the dude was at Harvard when he started the failbook. The "poor" usually don't end up at harvard.

Then there's Bill Gates who single handedly started microsoft. But he too, off course, was already rich to begin with. Not super-duper rich... but his dad wasn't exactly a mine worker....

Elon Musk was also already super rich when he started Tesla and SpaceX and stuff.

If you really go look for it, those who really started out with next-to-nothing and are today in that 1% are very very very very few - if any at all.

But the image being sold to people is that "anyone" has the opportunity to achieve such wealth.

In theory, that's true. But in reality it's more like winning the lottery multiple times over.
For every one of them that succeeded, millions have failed.

I think this may be part of it. "let's not super-tax the super-rich, because one day I may be one of those super-rich"

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yeah....it's always someone else who sins.
The punitive nature of proposals by those
who demonize the wealthy show anger
& envy.
If I want more money, I'll work to get it, not
demand that the wealthy be allowed less.

Not sure where that comes from.
Heyo is talking about taxation (= giving money to the government to spend on education, health, public services, etc). He isn't talking about the rich having to give HIM money.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Eternal growth is impossible: and Capitalism cannot survive, unless there is eternal growth.
Because this is a finite planet with exhaustible resources.
You can't deforest all continents of the world to create more and more wood businesses because without trees, there is no oxygen.

So... Capitalism needs to coexist with a strong Social State, otherwise it will lead to chaos, turmoil and self-destruction.

I think this is a reasoning error.
There is no reason why capitalism must thrive, or can only thrive, by depleting the earth of natural resources.


Consider a cloud based social media service.
It could perfectly power every single one of its datacenters with solar and wind power and make billions of dollars without spending a single drop of oil, cutting down a single tree, catching a single fish, growing a single crop.

What you say applies only to specific business models which depend on an ever increasing rate of using natural resources. Specific businesses.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think that no philosopher has investigated about the psychological implications of unbridled Capitalism yet.

What do you mean by "unbridled" here?

That is, what pushes the exploited to keep rolling red carpets at the exploiters.

Who are you talking about when you say "the exploited"?
Are you talking about the customers, or poor chinese workers in swet shops?

I mean... there is a way to break the chains of exploitations: do not make children, if their future will be being exploited by the masters of economy.
When there are no slaves to exploit any more, the Capitalists will have to get their precious candid hands dirty to till the soil.

I guess by "exploited" and "slaves" you indeed DO mean the customers.
Nobody forces you to buy anything, or any specific thing.