The Injustice Proposed by the Belief System of Hell and the Tyrannical Cruelty of God

[michel]

Hell is not a concept in Judaism. Satan, in hebrew, means adversary. He acts as a counterpoint to G-d in the book of Job. Nowhere in the text says that arguing with the Creator is a sin. The afterlife is not clearly mentioned in the torah, and what I understand about the afterlife is gleaned out of what little I know of mysticism

Shalom goodjewishboy,

I tend to see things much in the same light, though as a Christian, I agree that I see Satan as 'The opposite' to God.

I believe that God's love for us all is immense - the most wonderful imaginable love there is, and that all he asks of us is a belief in him, and in the teachings of Jesus Christ; we are frail humans - unable not to sin; the only thing I believe God expects of us is an awareness of that, and a genuine effort to be made not to sin, and to Love all others.

 

[dorsk188]

If Hell is conceived to be a place of eternal torment, where you go if you reject God, don't know of God, commit a sin out of ignorance, commit a sin out of insanity, then God cannot be "infinitely just". No just god would ALLOW innocent people, with no knowledge of him to go there, let alone send them. Inaction on God's part is still indictment of his character. Moreover, consider the OT act of killing the first born son in Egypt. Because a young Egyptian could not, under his own society's rules, worship Yahweh, he would then go to Hell. God stacked the deck against that child, practically condemning him to eternal flames himself.

On the other hand, if Hell is absence from God's presence, as some say, then I'll look forward to many uneventful days throughout eternity, hanging out with most of the notable figures of science and philosophy. (No Lewis Caroll, though... Shame. I'm sure Einstien would love to meet him.) On top of that, I'll join that Hell Rebellion for Satan's thrown, as well, just for kicks and giggles.

 

[jewscout]

Hell is not a concept in Judaism. Satan, in hebrew, means adversary. He acts as a counterpoint to G-d in the book of Job. Nowhere in the text says that arguing with the Creator is a sin. The afterlife is not clearly mentioned in the torah, and what I understand about the afterlife is gleaned out of what little I know of mysticism

yeah what he said :bounce

it is said that the living can not understand the World to Come any more than a blind man can understand color

it's just not a big issue for judaism.

 

[joeboonda]

the exact verses elude me, but II Peter 2:4 is a part of the puzzle: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; Also Mathew25:41 ...Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[michel]

If Hell is conceived to be a place of eternal torment, where you go if you reject God, don't know of God, commit a sin out of ignorance, commit a sin out of insanity, then God cannot be "infinitely just". No just god would ALLOW innocent people, with no knowledge of him to go there, let alone send them. Inaction on God's part is still indictment of his character. Moreover, consider the OT act of killing the first born son in Egypt. Because a young Egyptian could not, under his own society's rules, worship Yahweh, he would then go to Hell. God stacked the deck against that child, practically condemning him to eternal flames himself.

On the other hand, if Hell is absence from God's presence, as some say, then I'll look forward to many uneventful days throughout eternity, hanging out with most of the notable figures of science and philosophy. (No Lewis Caroll, though... Shame. I'm sure Einstien would love to meet him.) On top of that, I'll join that Hell Rebellion for Satan's thrown, as well, just for kicks and giggles.

If Hell is conceived to be a place of eternal torment, where you go if you reject God, don't know of God, commit a sin out of ignorance, commit a sin out of insanity, then God cannot be "infinitely just".

Now, just in case I am wrong, when you go 'up' there one day, and God doesn't let you in, don't say "Well Michel told me I would get a pass" - because I have no influence with God.

As far as I am concerned, I agree with every bit of what you said (highlighted in red) . The difference is that I KNOW that God is mercyful and loving.

The stories people tell, to get converts.....at least I hope that when people spread these awful untruths, they are doing it in the belief that they are 'helping' recruit for God; the only trouble there is that I don't think that God likes the idea of press-gangs.

Dorsk, I believe that I have committed a sin out of ignorance, committed a sin out of 'insanity' - well maybe "while the balance of my mind was impaired", and I truly believe that God would never punish for sins carried out in these cases. I would not be a believer if I thought otherwise - GOD LOVES.

 

[dorsk188]

Dorsk, I believe that I have committed a sin out of ignorance, committed a sin out of 'insanity' - well maybe "while the balance of my mind was impaired", and I truly believe that God would never punish for sins carried out in these cases. I would not be a believer if I thought otherwise - GOD LOVES.

From people I have talked to, most christians (deep south) believe that people of other religions or who lack religion are going to hell. It would seem to me, as another thread discusses, that if you are raised in an area that is overwhelmingly one religion, you tend to be that religion. (Exceptions exist, but by-and-large it's true) To me, that means that the majority of the world aren't christian (67%-ish) and probably most of them have never really been exposed to christianity, especially not in a religiously "anything goes" society. So, they have very little chance of being converted, because it goes against norms, mores, culture, tradition, etc. They are disadvantaged to say the least, if God expects them to instantly become christian, simply by seeing an evangelist on the street corner. If God doesn't hold his upbringing against him, which is just, then I have no problem with him. I hope that he understands my position: that I find evidence of his existance lacking, to be good enough reason, as well.

Personally, I think that everyone has a good reason to doubt this religion or that religion. So, when it comes down to it, shouldn't we be judged on actions, thoughts, and our own moral judgements, not on our willingness to bow down to an invisible father-figure in an ancient, dense tome? Of course, the problem is, we cannot know God's ways when it comes to judging us. We assume it's infinitely just, so it will all work out. Good enough for me, I trust that justice be done, as well. If I get to go to a paradise after I die, then I suppose I deserve it. If I get punished, then I have no regrets and believe such a God isn't worthy of worship anyway. It all works out.

God is:
All-powerful because he made us.
All-knowing because he can hear us.
All-good because he will destroy us if we don't say so.

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

I understand the concepts of God and Hell. I just do not believe that a place such as Hell could exist. I'd like to believe that I am an honourable, just, and kind person. I commit no major wrongdoings, according to the Bible. And yet, I am sent to Hell merely for disbelieving in the Judeo-Christian God? Billions of people will be sent to hell for being born non-Judeo-Christian! Some, like me, were born into such a religion, but did not believe merely because they were told to, and converted. If they remain good people, why should they be sent to Hell?

Besides this, why should Hell exist at all? I don't think a place of eternal torment (absence of God, lake of fire, what-have-you, it's all the same) has any reason to exist. No "sin" is great enough. If God persists in even allowing such torment, well, I'm of the opinion that God is a bully in the sandbox.

I think you are confusing some concepts here--not all Christians say that everyone else is damned. If you have invincible ignorance of God's existance and will, you will go to Heaven. (i.e. native Americans could not know about Jesus). Now, I am only a human and would never seak to judge you, even if I DID know anything about you, Druidus, so I have no idea if you are goign to Heaven or Hell. But I do know that in all men's lives, they have a chance to see the truth cna either accept it or reject it. So anyone who fidns themselves in Hell does so out of their own accord.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

So anyone who fidns themselves in Hell does so out of their own accord.

I think that might be the issue. Many people don't believe in a hell. Why would they be going to it if they don't believe in it? To assume they are is to assume that yours is the one and true faith.

 

[Rick123123]

To me, that means that the majority of the world aren't christian (67%-ish)

There are around 1 billion christians in the world dorsk that would make the percentage of people who are christians 17 % and those who are not 83 %.

All in all I think that there is no such thing as Hell, there is no such thing as one true faith.

 

[michel]

There are around 1 billion christians in the world dorsk that would make the percentage of people who are christians 17 % and those who are not 83 %.

All in all I think that there is no such thing as Hell, there is no such thing as one true faith.

Rick, my friend, I would have to disagree with you; my understanding of the world's religions, is represented below.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I'd like to see people answer one of the questions raised in the OP:

If God would send people to hell for not believing in Him, and Druidus would allow them into heaven, who is more merciful, God or Druidus?

 

[Sunstone]

Druidus. But it would be more merciful to abolish heaven and hell altogether.

 

[Druidus]

If God would send people to hell for not believing in Him, and Druidus would allow them into heaven, who is more merciful, God or Druidus?

While your point is easily seen, many who do not wish to see it would claim that it is not God that sends you to hell, but yourself.

But it would be more merciful to abolish heaven and hell altogether.

I can see the abolishing hell bit, but if there is a heaven, why should it be abolished, in your opinion?

 

[Sunstone]

I can see the abolishing hell bit, but if there is a heaven, why should it be abolished, in your opinion?

I'd rather not spend eternity basking in the glory of god. I prefer temporal existence. This world is challenge enough for me. So, if anything, I would prefer to be reincarnated into it. Either that, or (best) no afterlife at all.

 

[Druidus]

I'd rather not spend eternity basking in the glory of god.

I thought it would be the eternal praising of God. I know I'd get sick of that pretty quick.

I prefer temporal existence. This world is challenge enough for me. So, if anything, I would prefer to be reincarnated into it.

What about other worlds? Would you be opposed to an incarnation in another world?

To me, this argument is completely hypothetical; the hell, the heaven, the God, none of it exists for me. Perhaps that is why I can see it as immoral while a believer doesn't.

Thou art God, I am God, the trees are God, the grass is God, the tiger is God, the stag is God; all is God. Everything is an aspect of the Source, and "God" enough for me.

 

[Cynic]

Thou art God, I am God, the trees are God, the grass is God, the tiger is God, the stag is God; all is God. Everything is an aspect of the Source, and "God" enough for me.

Interesting. Do Druids consider God as, the All, as some sort of pantheism? Do you consider that God is objectively, everything in existence?

 

[Melody]

If God would send people to hell for not believing in Him, and Druidus would allow them into heaven, who is more merciful, God or Druidus?

I don't know Druidus' motives in allowing people into heaven, and he is an imperfect human himself, so is it mercy that he allows everyone into heaven even if they don't believe in him...or because he identifies with them and can relate to them?

God is a perfect being. Man has spit at Him, cursed Him, crucified Him and continued to behave abominably...and yet He said that if we just "believe" and accept Christ's sacrifice, we can still be saved. Not because He identifies with us, but for no other reason than that He loves us. That's mercy.

I've spent 20 minutes trying to say what's in my head and this is a pitiful attempt. I'll have to think on this more and see if I can word it better.

 

[Melody]

I thought it would be the eternal praising of God. I know I'd get sick of that pretty quick.

When I spend time in prayer, I'm always amazed at how quickly time passes because I can feel His presence and don't want to leave it. I can only imagine that this will be amplified beyond imagination when I am in His presence.

Sick of praising God? Never.

 

[Sunstone]

I don't know Druidus' motives in allowing people into heaven, and he is an imperfect human himself, so is it mercy that he allows everyone into heaven even if they don't believe in him...or because he identifies with them and can relate to them?

God is a perfect being. Man has spit at Him, cursed Him, crucified Him and continued to behave abominably...and yet He said that if we just "believe" and accept Christ's sacrifice, we can still be saved. Not because He identifies with us, but for no other reason than that He loves us. That's mercy.

I've spent 20 minutes trying to say what's in my head and this is a pitiful attempt. I'll have to think on this more and see if I can word it better.

That's a rather beautiful post, Melody. I think you've worded it quite well, and I wish I weren't out of frubals for the day because you certainly deserve some!

 

[Katzpur]

Hi, Druidus.

It is my opinion that Hell is a cruel idea, and the creator of such a place would be cruel to create it. To magnify the cruelty, if such a creater were to punish, for eternity, mind you, people who disagreed with her, or did not even know of her, it would be simply tyrannical abuse of power.

I believe in Hell, but I definitely don't believe in a God who would "punish, for eternity... people who disagreed with her, or did not even know of her." I agree that this would be a "tyrannical abuse of power." But that's not the kind of God I believe in.

I cannot agree with such a God who would impose that torture. At least Satan did not eternally punish people, and if you look at it, even he was only punished for being of a different opinion than God.

I disagree. Satan did eternally punish people. He did this by intentionally misleading them and encouraging them to rebell against God. God punished him for attempting to exalt himself above his Creator. That's not the same thing as being of a different opinion than God.

If I had been present at a rebellion, and of a knowing state that God would create such a torture filled reality, I could not honourably side with him through the rebellion, and, even knowing he could not win, would be forced to side with Satan.

Okay, here's a thought for you: I believe that you were there at that rebellion and that you did not side with Satan. (You may have understood his motives back then better than you do now.) Had you sided with him, you would have been among the third of the host of heaven who were cast out along with him.

I cannot believe that such a place as Hell exists, for the aforementioned reasons. Hell does not exist for me. Why? Because I do not believe that such a degree of sadism could be found in any being. If Hell exists, and it is my destiny to go there for disagreeing with God, then I will go proudly, with my honour. I cannot side with a God who would create such torture.

I have a feeling nobody's going to be very successful in convincing you that God is not a sadist. Nobody will be going to Hell without a very good reason. In essence, anyone who chooses that fate will have known full well how to avoid it and will be there because he wouldn't be happy in God's presence anyway.

Thus, I believe, that if Christianity, Judaism, and/or Islam is/are correct, Hell does not exist. Followers of said faiths, do you believe Hell exists? Do you believe I will go there? Do you believe it is just that people such as I, and many others on this board, will go there? It uneases me to think of it.

So, yes I believe that Hell exists. No, I don't believe you will go there. I believe you will go to Heaven and will be very surprised at how many of your fellow Druids you see when you get there.

Kathryn