The Issue of Homosexuality

[waitasec]

I'm making Libertarianism look bad by people misinterpreting me and thinking all Libertarians share my opinion, so I'm just going to say I have nothing against the idea of gay marriage.

It isn't hurting them if they can't get married.

 

[fallingblood]

Wrong. It has everything to do with Theology. These are christians who are using the bible as a means to prevent same-sex marriage. Nothing less.

The reason for opposition is not the Bible. In fact, at one time, Christians didn't have a problem with same sex relationships. Not to mention the Bible really doesn't say much about same-sex marriages anyways.

Christians (and it is not just Christians) are opposing same-sex relationships because of a prejudice. This prejudice is the same one that has caused many people to oppose minorities throughout history. The prejudice was already there when some looked to the Bible as supposed justification. However, if you actually read the justification, they really aren't even using the Bible anyway. They are clearly showing that they just have a problem with same-sex relationships (as in it is very clear they are picking and choosing what verses matter here).

And this hardly would suggest a theocracy. At most, it would suggest that some ideas, justified through the Bible, are being instigated. That does not equal a theocracy. I really think people in this thread do not really understand what a theocracy is.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

And this hardly would suggest a theocracy. At most, it would suggest that some ideas, justified through the Bible, are being instigated. That does not equal a theocracy. I really think people in this thread do not really understand what a theocracy is.

^^ This ^^

 

[Draka]

The reason for opposition is not the Bible. In fact, at one time, Christians didn't have a problem with same sex relationships. Not to mention the Bible really doesn't say much about same-sex marriages anyways.

Christians (and it is not just Christians) are opposing same-sex relationships because of a prejudice. This prejudice is the same one that has caused many people to oppose minorities throughout history. The prejudice was already there when some looked to the Bible as supposed justification. However, if you actually read the justification, they really aren't even using the Bible anyway. They are clearly showing that they just have a problem with same-sex relationships (as in it is very clear they are picking and choosing what verses matter here).

And this hardly would suggest a theocracy. At most, it would suggest that some ideas, justified through the Bible, are being instigated. That does not equal a theocracy. I really think people in this thread do not really understand what a theocracy is.

Throwing anything about a theocracy out the the window, you have to realize that the main opposition to same sex marriage is indeed religious. Most specifically, Christian opposition. The rallying heard against same sex marriage is based in marriage being "sacred", meant for a man and a woman as per "God". It isn't so simply broken down to just people being uneasy about a minority. This prejudice has a fuel feeding it and that fuel is most certainly religious in nature.

 

[Skwim]

The reason for opposition is not the Bible. In fact, at one time, Christians didn't have a problem with same sex relationships. Not to mention the Bible really doesn't say much about same-sex marriages anyways.

Christians (and it is not just Christians) are opposing same-sex relationships because of a prejudice. This prejudice is the same one that has caused many people to oppose minorities throughout history. The prejudice was already there when some looked to the Bible as supposed justification. However, if you actually read the justification, they really aren't even using the Bible anyway. They are clearly showing that they just have a problem with same-sex relationships (as in it is very clear they are picking and choosing what verses matter here).

I disagree. I see Christian homophobia as a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" matter. Some Christians find justification for their preexisting prejudice in the Bible, while others, primarily younger Christians, are taught to be "anti-homosexual" because "the Bible says so."

One disgusting example: "Ain't no homo going to make it to heaven."

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[Trey of Diamonds]

Throwing anything about a theocracy out the the window, you have to realize that the main opposition to same sex marriage is indeed religious. Most specifically, Christian opposition. The rallying heard against same sex marriage is based in marriage being "sacred", meant for a man and a woman as per "God". It isn't so simply broken down to just people being uneasy about a minority. This prejudice has a fuel feeding it and that fuel is most certainly religious in nature.

I agree with the Blood man though. While what you're saying is true, I see the religious aspect being used as an excuse for the prejudice rather than the motivator of the prejudice. I see the difference between the two to be important though many probably don't.

 

[Me Myself]

A second in hell to each clapper for each clap...

There is no shame

 

[Draka]

I agree with the Blood man though. While what you're saying is true, I see the religious aspect being used as an excuse for the prejudice rather than the motivator of the prejudice. I see the difference between the two to be important though many probably don't.

Where do think much of that prejudice stems from? We are not born with prejudices, we are taught them. We are taught to view others differently and to think certain ways about people. Just what is the basis for the lesson in why to treat homosexuals differently than heterosexuals? What are parents and other adults in a child's life teaching them is the reason to look at gays differently? The main reason..."what God wants".

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Where do think much of that prejudice stems from? We are not born with prejudices, we are taught them. We are taught to view others differently and to think certain ways about people. Just what is the basis for the lesson in why to treat homosexuals differently than heterosexuals? What are parents and other adults in a child's life teaching them is the reason to look at gays differently? The main reason..."what God wants".

Sure. But this doesn't change what I said. Religion is being used as the excuse to be prejudiced. Is is being used to condition others to be prejudiced. But the prejudice itself is not necessarily rooted in the religion. It's a small detail and like I said, most don't care about it but I like to get down to the details. Its where you find the devil after all.

 

[Alceste]

Where do think much of that prejudice stems from? We are not born with prejudices, we are taught them. We are taught to view others differently and to think certain ways about people. Just what is the basis for the lesson in why to treat homosexuals differently than heterosexuals? What are parents and other adults in a child's life teaching them is the reason to look at gays differently? The main reason..."what God wants".

I agree with this. I can't call to mind a single non-religious group that raised vocal opposition when Canada legalized gay marriage.

Maybe anybody can be taught to discriminate against homosexuals, but without a culture of religious morality to justify it and encouragement to be proud and pushy about it, the bigotry does not seem to last very far into adulthood, and it doesn't seem to lead to political activism against equal rights for gay people.

 

[fallingblood]

I disagree. I see Christian homophobia as a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" matter. Some Christians find justification for their preexisting prejudice in the Bible, while others, primarily younger Christians, are taught to be "anti-homosexual" because "the Bible says so."

One disgusting example: "Ain't no homo going to make it to heaven.

I agree that children are being taught this prejudice, and that this prejudice has been justified with the Bible (or a weak reading of the Bible). But I also think that the prejudice existed much earlier than the Bible or the religion. I see the major factor here being that they (the GLBT community) are a minority, and that scares people. People seem to have a tendency to be afraid by what is different, and that is why minorities tend to be hated.

The main reason I see it this way is because I have been in a lot of debates with anti-gay individuals, and when the Bible is actually looked at critically, the argument usually turns to "it's still wrong anyway." There is a hypocrisy here, in which Christians will take one verse, and ignore every other verse surrounding it, that condemn things that they are guilty of. This is true for both the OT and NT passages.

It is this cherry picking that I see as clear evidence that the Bible is just being used as an excuse. The same was seen with slavery, when certain verses were purposely taken out of context, or distorted to support slavery (funny enough, it was hardly ever the verses that actually mentioned slavery anyway, but instead, such stories as the Tower of Babel). Slavery was already an institution before it was justified with the Bible. It was only when the institution of slavery was challenged that the Bible was brought in to justify their already held beliefs. I think this is exactly what is happening in regards to homosexuality.

 

[Draka]

Sure. But this doesn't change what I said. Religion is being used as the excuse to be prejudiced. Is is being used to condition others to be prejudiced. But the prejudice itself is not necessarily rooted in the religion. It's a small detail and like I said, most don't care about it but I like to get down to the details. Its where you find the devil after all.

Religion isn't "being used" as the excuse, it IS the excuse. Without it there is no excuse. It is the cause for the prejudice, passed on from generation to generation. A lesson in hate and discrimination as ordained by "God."

 

[Revoltingest]

Religion isn't "being used" as the excuse, it IS the excuse. Without it there is no excuse. It is the cause for the prejudice, passed on from generation to generation. A lesson in hate and discrimination as ordained by "God."

I say that "excuse" is the wrong word, at least for the anti-homo fundies I know.
It disparagingly means to offer a proffered reason in lieu of the real reason.
But they're taught that it's immoral & they really believe it.

 

[Draka]

I say that "excuse" is the wrong word, at least for the anti-homo fundies I know.
It disparagingly means to offer a proffered reason in lieu of the real reason.
But they're taught that it's immoral & they really believe it.

I thought about that when I wrote that, I almost used the word "reason" instead of excuse the second time. I should have.

 

[Revoltingest]

I thought about that when I wrote that, I almost used the word "reason" instead of excuse the second time. I should have.

Dang! There's just no arguing with you, is there?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Religion isn't "being used" as the excuse, it IS the excuse. Without it there is no excuse. It is the cause for the prejudice, passed on from generation to generation. A lesson in hate and discrimination as ordained by "God."

So, are you saying the all Christianity hates homosexuals because God ordained it or that some people hate homosexuals and use Christianity as an excuse to do so?

 

[waitasec]

So, are you saying the all Christianity hates homosexuals because God ordained it or that some people hate homosexuals and use Christianity as an excuse to do so?

there are atheists that hate homosexuals too and i don't see how religion plays any part of that prejudice

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

there are atheists that hate homosexuals too and i don't see how religion plays any part of that prejudice

My question was specifically for Draka, I'm trying to get a handle on what she means exactly because I don't think I'm understanding her correctly.

 

[Draka]

So, are you saying the all Christianity hates homosexuals because God ordained it or that some people hate homosexuals and use Christianity as an excuse to do so?

I'm not saying that all Christians hate homosexuals, I'm saying that religious beliefs, most notably those from Christianity and Islam, form the largest base reason that most people who have issues with homosexuality have those issues. Fact is, the less religious a culture/country is the less issues they have with discrimination and inequality.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I'm not saying that all Christians hate homosexuals, I'm saying that religious beliefs, most notably those from Christianity and Islam, form the largest base reason that most people who have issues with homosexuality have those issues. Fact is, the less religious a culture/country is the less issues they have with discrimination and inequality.

Once again, do you believe that all Christianity, (not Christians but the religion itself), hates homosexuality? Just because a lot of Christians use their religion to justify their prejudices doesn't mean that the prejudice is inherent in the religion itself. So my question is do you believe that Christianity as a religion promotes hatred towards homosexuals? I don't think you do but that is the perception I get from some of your posts so I'm looking for a clarification.