The keys to the kingdom?

[Katzpur]

First the 'key' converstion takes place between jesus and peter.

This is what jesus tells peter:

I will give you the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." -


This is what jesus tells his disciples:

18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

The 'key' does not feature in the converstation with the disciples.

Then jesus tells the disciples...not adding the part of the key...that he gives them a different kind of authority. He says...where two or three come together in my name, there i am. So this is not two or three people acting on behalf of the kingdom. This is two or three people + jesus acting on behalf of the kingdom.

So peter must be feeling he has some authority because of this key he will/did recieve.

The rest of them must have thought the authority was given to them because when they gather together in his name, there jesus was. In other words, if any descisions were to be made, jesus would be right there with them every step of the way.

Is that what jesus would do with peter...with the keys? Or would peter realy on this key to build a church? Would peter attempt to 'run' the church on his own?

Would peter be so busy being important that he does not do, what jesus asked perhaps even warned him to do...to feed the sheep? Or would peter end up feeding himself and those he chose, producing shephards that are puffed up with knowledge.

Heneni

Hi, Heneni. Paul said that Jesus appointed prophets and apostles and that they were the foundation of His Church. He said their purpose was to help perfect His followers, to minister to them and to teach them. They were to do this until we all came into the unity of our faith in Christ and that this was essential to avoid our being like children, "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine."

When Jesus said, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them," I don't see this an indicative that He was giving them the authority to preside over the Church, or the keys to bind in Heaven what they might bind on Earth. I believe He was simply telling them that they would feel His presence when they met together to remember Him.

 

[Heneni]

Peter, was the first one to recieve the revelation that jesus was the christ? Well, maybe he was, mary i think beat him to it. So did john.

And later, many others realised that he was the christ. After he was dead unfortunately, but alas, better late than never.

Sure peter must have tried his best. He failed in some things, and so did the other disciples. But i think what peter wanted was position. And that he recieved...but would he love jesus enough to remain at his station, and do what is required?

I hope so. Also..peter isnt dead. He's alive and well. With those keys

Also, i dont want to underestimate the role of the HS. I would think that the HS teaches. The two (peter and the HS) seem to have the same job description? Not too sure what to make of it though.

 

[Heneni]

Maybe peter was suppose to be the one to bring the food to the sheep at the proper time. If heaven has to be opened in order for revelational knowlege to come to us via the HS, could it be that peter is suppose to open this door at the right time? Peter is admonished to keep watch. Ok, he fell asleep on jesus once. But we will forgive him for that.

What concerns me...is that jesus said that peter was minding the things of man. Could it be that peter did not recieve revelational knowledge enough to realise that jesus had to be crucified? Why would he recieve the knowledge that jesus is the christ....and that elevate him to some sort of revelation gurru...and then...rebuke jesus when he said he had to die?

Im not so sure what kind of revelation knowlege peter can distribute. I think thats the job of the HS. But perhaps he is responsible for the timing of these winds and waves of the HS that come our way. Well, the winds will blow and the waters will rise...but will peter open the door at the right time?

Heneni

 

[Katzpur]

Hi, Heneini. I was trying to figure out if you were directing these comments to me, to someone else, or to no one in particular, so excuse me if I'm speaking out of line.

Peter, was the first one to recieve the revelation that jesus was the christ? Well, maybe he was, mary i think beat him to it. So did john.

LOL! I stand corrected if this is in response to my statement about Peter and the rock upon which Christ built His Church. Obviously, Mary knew that Jesus was the Christ before anyone else did, and John the Baptist (I'm assuming that's the John you're talking about) recognized it before most people. I was referring specifically to the verses where Christ said He would give Peter the keys to bind in heaven whatever he would bind on earth. None of the other Apostles gave Christ the answer he was looking for, so presumably, Peter was the first of them to have had it revealed to him.

But i think what peter wanted was position. And that he recieved...but would he love jesus enough to remain at his station, and do what is required?

I'm still not sure why you say that what he wanted was position. He was martyred for His belief in Christ. What more could reasonably have been required?

Also..peter isnt dead. He's alive and well.

:yes:

With those keys

Nope. :no:

Also, i dont want to underestimate the role of the HS. I would think that the HS teaches. The two (peter and the HS) seem to have the same job description? Not too sure what to make of it though.

The Holy Ghost is part of the Godhead, though. Peter isn't. That's a pretty significant difference in my opinion.

 

[Katzpur]

Maybe peter was suppose to be the one to bring the food to the sheep at the proper time. If heaven has to be opened in order for revelational knowlege to come to us via the HS, could it be that peter is suppose to open this door at the right time?

Perhaps he was. Perhaps he did.

Im not so sure what kind of revelation knowlege peter can distribute. I think thats the job of the HS.

Peter would have been the one by which Christ directed His Church after His death. He would speak to Peter, directing Peter in how to direct the Church. The Holy Ghost would confirm to the body of Christ that the words spoken by Peter were from God.

But perhaps he is responsible for the timing of these winds and waves of the HS that come our way. Well, the winds will blow and the waters will rise...but will peter open the door at the right time?

Okay, as a Latter-day Saint, I can't pass this one up. He did. He opened the door and returned the keys to earth. Personally. Too bad this isn't a debate forum, huh?

 

[Heneni]

Peter would have been the one by which Christ directed His Church after His death. He would speak to Peter, directing Peter in how to direct the Church. The Holy Ghost would confirm to the body of Christ that the words spoken by Peter were from God.

You've raised an interesting point here. From what i can make out, you are saying that peter is directing the church and....that the HS confirms this direction to the people. I believe that the HS is not directing the church..jesus as the shephard is doing that. He leads his church...he shows them where to go...where to get grean pastures.

The church is connected to the 'head' which is christ. If they are connected to anything else...they are not 'connected' . The purpose of the HS, among many things is to remind us what what jesus taught. If the HS can do this, peter doesnt have to. I think that jesus, the father and the HS work well enough together to direct his church. Introducing peter into the equation does seem to complicate things.

If peter is directing the church then he must be doing this through the shephards..and as we know the bible says that many shephards have invaded the flock, and are leading them astray. Did john or was it peter give those keys (presumably) to John Smith..im not sure.....

Didnt jesus say that he was the gate? And for that matter, the gate keeper? Isnt HE the one who leads and directs the sheep, not peter?. I think peter should have given those keys back to jesus, if you ask me.:rainbow1:. But alas..perhaps he wanted power.

This rock which peter was said to be...jesus called a stumbling block. And peter minded the things of man more than the things of god.

Also:

1 Cor 10:3

They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

The rock hasnt changed. Everything that is not built on the rock, be they any denomination or any church, will not make it.

And jesus is the master builder! (not peter).

What im trying to determine here...is what were those keys for..what was peter suppose to do with them, what has he done with them, and what should he not have/do with them?

I also posted the difference between the binding and loosing conversation that jesus had with the disciples and the one he had with peter. Has peter tried to build the church on his rock? Has he sought his own council? Who is he listening to?

The rest of the disciples were told about the binding and loosing as well, by jesus in a seperate conversation, and there jesus told them, where ever two or three are gather in his name there i am in the midst of them...meaning...HE would be involved, and he would be the witness to the instructions of god i.t.o what direction the church should go in. He would be involved in the 'binding' and 'loosing' activities...which quite frankly, im still not sure what it means. But since there are keys involved...it must involve doors. Binding a door could mean its closed, and loosing a door could mean its open. Which makes me think....how does satan get into 'heaven'...unless someone opens the door? And what if peter..who minds the things of man..havent given those keys to men? The wrong men? And what if those men are opening doors that should have remained closed?

If there is war in heaven...could it be because somebody left the back door open?

Heneni