The Koran calls it Israel, and says G-d gave it to the Jewish people

[beenie]

Really? how many are 'some'? I've seen Muslims use these ultra orthodox groups, which are very small and distinct groups over and over again, as if it is a beacon of triumph that Jews support them. while in reality these are by far the MOST alienated members of the Jewish society, so fringe and small, they seem like complete aliens to modern Jews and Israelis. they hold some of the most antagonistic religious beliefs, and are literally living in ghettos in Israel.
All Jews and Israelis know where Israel is. modern Israel is filled with Jewish archaeology, from the ancient synagogues of the Golan Heights and Galilee, to Jerusalem which has remnants of the Temple, to Massada- the legendary final stand off of Jewish rebels and Roman legionnaires.
if you want to claim that Israel is maybe located on Mars, Antarctica, Poland, or Alaska. I'd love to see the archaeological record you can supply.

oh my goodness. i qualified my question by stating, quite clearly i might add, that i wish to be educated on this issue. i wasn't using any example; i was posing a question. i, for one, am not denying the location of Israel. i was asking what Muslims believe about this portion of the Qur'an, as i am not familiar with this at all. relax, dude.

thanks for the info anyway. peace out.

 

[Rakhel]

I do have a question for those more knowledgeable in Mohammad and the Qu'ran.

It is my understanding that the land Israel stands on now was called Philistina when the Romans occupied it, and that the Sages of the Talmud called it Palestine. To which is was still called until Israel gained it's independence in 1948 and changed the name.
So what was it called when Mohammad wrote the Qu'ran? Was it still called Philistina or was the name changed to Palestine or to Israel?

 

[Rakhel]

Further, was the word "Israel" written in Arabic or was it later translated into "Israel" when the English version of the Qu'ran was printed?

 

[Caladan]

First, I think people here are missing the time-line.

Second, does this give the right for Jewish to come and kick the inhabitants out of their land ?

Being more proficient fighters of course. I am not sure where you live, but this is the law of the land in the Middle east.

Third, if it is like this, I think then the white and black in America has no right to be there, the white in Africa, the Indians and Arabs in Tanzania, some of the Africans in Arabian Peninsula, All of those should be kicked out.

Well. in Israel's case, the Arabs tried on numerous times through the decades to 'kick Israelis' out. only to be defeated and ironically increase Israeli territory, more than tripling it on one occasion. and causing the Palestinian refugee problem in the process, and creating the Gaza strip and the West Bank in the process too.
All the modern problems that are related to the Palestinians are rooted in Arab defeats to the Israelis. the main result is that Israel is still here, and still formidable. and its efficiency and strength has forced major Arab powers into treaties, and other Arab powers into negotiations.
trust me, Israelis do not search to be 'right', they search to be 'wise'. it is actually a very popular Israeli proverb: 'Don't be right, be wise'.

You just can't come after Hundreds of years to evacuate people by force out of their lands.

Well, wake up. we just did. its going to be 70 years that it has already happened. more than 60 years that Israel has shaped itself into a formidable powerhouse of science, ecology, military, technology and research.
we've only been doing it more successfully than the other Mid eastern powers, and with much much less collateral damage.
When Islamic nations do it, usually they simply ethnically cleanse sometimes up to millions of people.
When Islamic nations in the middle east wage wars against each other, the result can be more than a million casualties and will take a decade as in the Iran-Iraq war. while Israel will use proficient strategies they have perfected from the Luftwaffe to end the war in a matter of days with a handful of casualties.

 

[Caladan]

oh my goodness. i qualified my question by stating, quite clearly i might add, that i wish to be educated on this issue. i wasn't using any example; i was posing a question. i, for one, am not denying the location of Israel. i was asking what Muslims believe about this portion of the Qur'an, as i am not familiar with this at all. relax, dude.

thanks for the info anyway. peace out.

With all due respect, dudette.
I wish people will do the very basic in educating themselves BY themselves at least on the very very basics. it is impossible to debate and discuss with other people who present the knowledge you would expect from a falah that has been living along the Nile and has not picked up a newspaper in a decade.
Now before you treat it as an insult, think about it.
why should people who do their best to educate themselves and get information on daily basis debate with people who are not doing the same?
We want to debate and discuss with people who observe the situation and can hold a conversation with you about it.
no one likes to educate others. when they can do it themselves.

 

[beenie]

^ o.....k....
done with this thread then. thanks a lot.
not insulted, just a little put off by your apparent unwillingness to help out.
i have nothing against you, and have had some pleasant interchanges, but whatever.

it's all good.

 

[Jacksnyte]

With all due respect, dudette.
I wish people will do the very basic in educating themselves BY themselves at least on the very very basics. it is impossible to debate and discuss with other people who present the knowledge you would expect from a falah that has been living along the Nile and has not picked up a newspaper in a decade.
Now before you treat it as an insult, think about it.
why should people who do their best to educate themselves and get information on daily basis debate with people who are not doing the same?
We want to debate and discuss with people who observe the situation and can hold a conversation with you about it.
no one likes to educate others. when they can do it themselves.

No disrespect to the person you were responding to, but in general on these forums, I think this may ought to be a rule!!! Many frubals!!!

 

[beenie]

i understand that, but is it against the rules to ask a question to further my own knowledge? to be honest, i was asking other MUSLIMS to explain this verse, as i don't UNDERSTAND the verse.

i wasn't asking for a geography lesson.

 

[Caladan]

i understand that, but is it against the rules to ask a question to further my own knowledge? to be honest, i was asking other MUSLIMS to explain this verse, as i don't UNDERSTAND the verse.

Why do you not want to further your knowledge on your terms and by yourself? why do you want other Muslims to EXPLAIN TO YOU the verses? is there a uniform way that all Muslims around the world should be programmed with?
pick up the Qur'an, read the verses, think about them, digest them if you have to, then go to the other sources.
These verses have been used by groups of interest to project and produce conflicting view and ideologies as it is. do you want them to do the thinking for you? it is the Qur'an, the sacred text of your Deen, and of more than 1.6 Billion people world wide, I would say you have a duty to know every inch of it, every letter, every verse and its implications, especially the important verses. the kind which talk about enormous geopolitical implications. and are touching the ground with references from parallel scriptures, namely the Hebrew scriptures, in this case.

i wasn't asking for a geography lesson.

'Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher'

The main implications of these verses are completely Geographical.

 

[Alceste]

^ o.....k....
done with this thread then. thanks a lot.
not insulted, just a little put off by your apparent unwillingness to help out.
i have nothing against you, and have had some pleasant interchanges, but whatever.

it's all good.

Don't be put off. Seriously, most of us enjoy sharing what we know. It's a rare person who comes to a discussion forum only to complain about all the discussion going on.

Unfortunately I know nothing about the Koran, so I don't have anything to share. Got any questions about Irish music, biology, the PR industry, American Imperialism, climate change, peak oil, natural building, beekeeping, scuba diving or baking?

 

[beenie]

Why do you not want to further your knowledge on your terms and by yourself? why do you want other Muslims to EXPLAIN TO YOU the verses? is there a uniform way that all Muslims around the world should be programmed with?
pick up the Qur'an, read the verses, think about them, digest them if you have to, then go to the other sources.
These verses have been used by groups of interest to project and produce conflicting view and ideologies as it is. do you want them to do the thinking for you? it is the Qur'an, the sacred text of your Deen, and of more than 1.6 Billion people world wide, I would say you have a duty to know every inch of it, every letter, every verse and its implications, especially the important verses. the kind which talk about enormous geopolitical implications. and are touching the ground with references from parallel scriptures, namely the Hebrew scriptures, in this case.


'Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher'

The main implications of these verses are completely Geographical.

couldn't you have said that in the first place instead of being snarky?
i have read those verses, and they're vague to me. i am not questioning the location of Israel, but i'm sure SOME Muslims are. like Judaism, Christianity, etc. we have scholars that can at least explain the verses to me, THEN i can take what they've said, research it further, and come to my own conclusions. more than likely, i'll differ with their assessment at some level, because i usually do.

somehow you have this chip on your shoulder about my asking for help, and i'm not sure why. if you don't want to help me, DON'T. it's that simple. i'll research it myself and try and figure it out. call me crazy, but there is no one on this earth that knows every verse, every chapter...can you honestly claim to understand EVERY letter of your holy books? i can't, although i'd love to try...and i am. sorry if i'm failing in your opinion.

you also seem to think i feel that the state of Israel shouldn't exist (perhaps because i have "Muslim" under my title), but you couldn't be further from the truth. let's drop all the lecturing to me and move on, shall we?

Don't be put off. Seriously, most of us enjoy sharing what we know. It's a rare person who comes to a discussion forum only to complain about all the discussion going on.

Unfortunately I know nothing about the Koran, so I don't have anything to share. Got any questions about Irish music, biology, the PR industry, American Imperialism, climate change, peak oil, natural building, beekeeping, scuba diving or baking?

i would think this would be an excellent opportunity to open up a dialogue between Muslims and Jews regarding these important verses, but apparently i'm not intelligent enough for Caladan.

 

[Alceste]

i would think this would be an excellent opportunity to open up a dialogue between Muslims and Jews regarding these important verses, but apparently i'm not intelligent enough for Caladan.

Heaven knows, Jewish people never have discussions or debates about the meaning of their scriptural verses and what they mean in the context of modern living, and they'd never dream of going to a rabbi for clarification. They are so superior to you Muslims. Not only can they beat you up whenever they feel like it, and have more money than you, they also think for themselves! [/sarcasm]

 

[beenie]

^ I guess I put people into shell shock when I opened the door to hear both sides of this issue. . I truly am interested in interpretations from both sides as to how these verses are to be understood. I'm about as open-minded as one gets.

 

[RevKen]

First of all let us get our facts right, God in the bible gave Israel to the Israelites not the so called Jews of today, The Arabs were given permission by God to live there.
Allah is not God almighty Allah is a pagan god, the moon god this is why a crescent moon is over the Muslim temples.

Muhammad said

Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of
war.”

God Almighty said

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ken

 

[Caladan]

but there is no one on this earth that knows every verse, every chapter...can you honestly claim to understand EVERY letter of your holy books? i can't, although i'd love to try...and i am. sorry if i'm failing in your opinion.

There are a few highly proficient scriptures students/scholars on this very website. some of them have done the effort to master the original ancient language and script of the text. over the last couple of years I have seen these scholars and knowledgeable members let their scholarly efforts go to waste because of other members who come on a Religious Education Forum in order to have 'frubal games', literalize their scriptures, trash the scriptures of other people, and every inane and unacademic process in between. there are members who can analyze every New Testament verse in the original Greek, right here, on this website, there are members who can dissect every verse in the Hebrew Bible IN the original Hebrew, right here on this very website. there are members, quite a few of them I've noticed in the last couple of years who study the Qur'an, some have even read it cover to cover on more than one occasion.
So, yes I am snarky for all this wonderful hard labour going to waste because people let other people study their religion for them.
I am snakry because hours and hours and months and years of studies go to waste on other people's lack of desire to get an education for themselves. one of the first things you learn in a university. is the difference between constructive questions and unconstructive questions.
If you feel offended and think I'm snarky, go ahead. it really isn't the end of the world.
as long as members such as Angellous, Oberon and Levite are doing their homework so that guys like me can log on, read their material and their references, have a sigh of relief that there are still members who take the title 'Religious Education Forum' in its proper context, its all good. I will then take the time to read what they present, what they labour on, probably on regular basis and work on it from there.
Now, don't get me wrong, the other members teach me a lot as well. namely- how not to study, how not to present your knowledge, how not to be caught in the insignificant details of a debate. etc.

you also seem to think i feel that the state of Israel shouldn't exist (perhaps because i have "Muslim" under my title), but you couldn't be further from the truth. let's drop all the lecturing to me and move on, shall we?

Whoohoo now that's one major defensive leap.
as far as I am concerned, whenever anyone, whether a friend or foe says something ignorant about my nation he is fair game. I am going to examine every move of his on the forum from the point onward. call it indoctrination. it hasn't failed me yet.

i would think this would be an excellent opportunity to open up a dialogue between Muslims and Jews regarding these important verses, but apparently i'm not intelligent enough for Caladan.

Muslims on the internet have funny ideas when they think of dialogue with the Jews. usually I get called 'Satan worshipper', 'Zionist', that my sacred text is corrupted, that my prophets and patriarchs are Muslim, that the Qur'an contains all the scientific knowledge I will ever need- now this one is the killer of them all, I come from an environment in which it is almost a standard to hold a PhD in science or other 'high profile' career.
Most of us are really not that bothered by the instinctual defensiveness of Muslim members on the web, it has become somewhat of a legendary standard on the web.
I'm not looking for friends ssainhu. this is the internet. I have dozens of friends who would actually sit down with me face to face and talk to me about all these things and more. on line, I'm trying to get the best references I can get. I expect that people who log on Educational forums, especially on major social phenomena to come with the same honourable terms I present.
I dont HAVE to read the Qur'an on regular basis and debate it with Muslims, only to see them go into a shell, I don't have to quote New Testament verses and passages in the right context when I debate Christians. I simply happen to find it crucial to study these scriptures cover to cover because they are shaping our world, so yes. I take it dead seriously. and if people think I'm not nice, it is not that relevant nor important.
as long as there is a potential that over 2 billion Christians expect an Armageddon and over a billion and a half Muslims expect the same, or even if just the radical yet active groups in these religions believe it, then yes, I'll engage and point out any ignorance on the very Scriptures which inspires such ideas in people. I really have no idea what nice has to do with it. its a debate. as long as we are not cursing each other, it's Kosher.
These are our religions, traditions and legacies. when people show lack of proficiency in theirs, I automatically project it on all members of the faith. when a Jewish member misrepresent Jewish culture I will give them hell as well.
Now here's a sermon for you. just go and print it

 

[beenie]

ok Caladan.
i'm going to say this one more time.
i didn't ever insult you or your religion. i did not call you a zionist or a satan worshipper. please stop clumping me into this mass of people you proclaim to know so well. i don't think like most people, and i do like to hear all perspectives. sorry if you feel i don't meet your intellectual level; you might be surprised though...but i don't need to prove it to you any more than you feel the need to prove it to me.

damn, i am disappointed. i thought we could be BFFs over the internet. dialogue doesn't equal friends.
i have a higher education too, and i have, on THIS VERY FORUM proclaimed that the Qur'an is not a science book, nor do i refer to it when i'm studying science.

i don't think my falling short on this one particular verse makes me any less proficient in my faith, but i can't help it if you think it does. i enjoy studying my religion AND others; i don't make a life of it though, because i have six daughters to raise and many other activities to participate in. if i spent as many hours as you and your friends and people on this site spend picking apart every verse...i will miss out on MY most important role, and that is as a MOTHER. i DON'T let others research my religion for me, but i do have the right to ask for further guidance if i don't understand something. please get over that; i didn't ask you.

you say kosher, i say halal.

 

[beenie]

There are a few highly proficient scriptures students/scholars on this very website. some of them have done the effort to master the original ancient language and script of the text. over the last couple of years I have seen these scholars and knowledgeable members let their scholarly efforts go to waste because of other members who come on a Religious Education Forum in order to have 'frubal games', literalize their scriptures, trash the scriptures of other people, and every inane and unacademic process in between. there are members who can analyze every New Testament verse in the original Greek, right here, on this website, there are members who can dissect every verse in the Hebrew Bible IN the original Hebrew, right here on this very website. there are members, quite a few of them I've noticed in the last couple of years who study the Qur'an, some have even read it cover to cover on more than one occasion.
So, yes I am snarky for all this wonderful hard labour going to waste because people let other people study their religion for them.
I am snakry because hours and hours and months and years of studies go to waste on other people's lack of desire to get an education for themselves. one of the first things you learn in a university. is the difference between constructive questions and unconstructive questions.
If you feel offended and think I'm snarky, go ahead. it really isn't the end of the world.
as long as members such as Angellous, Oberon and Levite are doing their homework so that guys like me can log on, read their material and their references, have a sigh of relief that there are still members who take the title 'Religious Education Forum' in its proper context, its all good. I will then take the time to read what they present, what they labour on, probably on regular basis and work on it from there.
Now, don't get me wrong, the other members teach me a lot as well. namely- how not to study, how not to present your knowledge, how not to be caught in the insignificant details of a debate. etc.

i admire them for that, and if they're bothered by my presenting a question to help me further understand something, i'm sure they'll let me know. you surely have.

Whoohoo now that's one major defensive leap.

i wasn't defensive at all. i presented a question, not based on MY beliefs, as i've stated over and over again.

as far as I am concerned, whenever anyone, whether a friend or foe says something ignorant about my nation he is fair game. I am going to examine every move of his on the forum from the point onward. call it indoctrination. it hasn't failed me yet.

you will be very bored, because i am not a troublemaker. i have much respect for "your nation" and if you really studied my activities as much as you claim to, you'd know that.

Muslims on the internet have funny ideas when they think of dialogue with the Jews. usually I get called 'Satan worshipper', 'Zionist', that my sacred text is corrupted, that my prophets and patriarchs are Muslim, that the Qur'an contains all the scientific knowledge I will ever need- now this one is the killer of them all, I come from an environment in which it is almost a standard to hold a PhD in science or other 'high profile' career.
Most of us are really not that bothered by the instinctual defensiveness of Muslim members on the web, it has become somewhat of a legendary standard on the web.

perhaps you've been having a dialogue with the wrong type of Muslims.

I'm not looking for friends ssainhu. this is the internet. I have dozens of friends who would actually sit down with me face to face and talk to me about all these things and more. on line, I'm trying to get the best references I can get. I expect that people who log on Educational forums, especially on major social phenomena to come with the same honourable terms I present.
I dont HAVE to read the Qur'an on regular basis and debate it with Muslims, only to see them go into a shell, I don't have to quote New Testament verses and passages in the right context when I debate Christians. I simply happen to find it crucial to study these scriptures cover to cover because they are shaping our world, so yes. I take it dead seriously. and if people think I'm not nice, it is not that relevant nor important.
as long as there is a potential that over 2 billion Christians expect an Armageddon and over a billion and a half Muslims expect the same, or even if just the radical yet active groups in these religions believe it, then yes, I'll engage and point out any ignorance on the very Scriptures which inspires such ideas in people. I really have no idea what nice has to do with it. its a debate. as long as we are not cursing each other, it's Kosher.
These are our religions, traditions and legacies. when people show lack of proficiency in theirs, I automatically project it on all members of the faith. when a Jewish member misrepresent Jewish culture I will give them hell as well.

as you should. i do the same, if you care to read.

Now here's a sermon for you. just go and print it

no thanks. i have to go dissect my Qur'an now.

oh, and it hasn't gone unnoticed to me that no other Muslims have tackled this topic. i too wonder why.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

First of all let us get our facts right, God in the bible gave Israel to the Israelites not the so called Jews of today, The Arabs were given permission by God to live there.
Allah is not God almighty Allah is a pagan god, the moon god this is why a crescent moon is over the Muslim temples.

Muhammad said

Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of
war.”

God Almighty said

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ken

Wow, a 3fer: antisemitism, islamopathy, and proselytizing in one post.