The Law

[KBC1963]

KBC 1963
God allowed freewill to show its flaws. And yes we can be like God without freewill.

So you believe that freewill is flawed, interesting.
Do you believe that God has freewill? if you do then you are in a catch-22 situation.

Just like Jesus was the image of God. Jesus said I'm in the Father and the Father is in me. God can only do this if you fully trust him. Once you do he can put his Spirit in you and you will be the image of the Father. What we want is TO BE GOD not like God. We want to make our own decisions. We can't do that and God has proven it by what has transpired on the earth over the last 6000 years. With freewill you think selfishly. God runs the universe under the law of love. Everyone lives to give. Paul said we had o excuse in not knowing this because of what God had created. Everything that we haven't screwed up was a perfect circle of giving. I'm sure you remember from your science class the law of thermal dynamics-nothing is ever gained or lost only changed. we breathe in O2 and breathe out CO2. Plants do the exact reverse-the law of love.

You seem to also believe that we cannot make freewill decisions on our own that are in harmony with God's will... hmmm. I believe you are wrong on this as well;

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness.....

So some of the gentiles actually made decisions "by their nature" to do the very "things contained in the law" and yet they "having not the law" did so on of their own free will.
You also seem to think that the indwelling Holy spirit that God will give will essentially take your free will away. This also is in error.

Hebrews 10:23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised 24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins...
Hebrews 10:36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

If the Holy spirit was just a controlling force that will eliminate your free will then there would have been no need to warn the people about drawing back after their illumination would there?

The Holy spirit is not a remover of free will, it is rather a helper;

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, 17 "even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

You can only be led by the spirit of God if you make a free will choice to follow, and you will retain that free will for as long as you exist. The Holy spirit is a helping guide to those who of their own free will desire to do good and it will assist you for as long as you continue to commit to this path, however, if you at some point turn from that path by your own free will then you will lose the Holy spirit as a guide and gain the trip to perdition.

 

[KBC1963]

Hi KBC1963, Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM! You questioned in my presence:
"Now I question whether I should be discussing this subject with you."
Yes, indeed, the higher on the Mountain one ascends, the more slippery the slope becomes. For all those who do not have a solid footing in the Holy Scriptures and a strong grip in the hands both the right and the left (righteous activity of the hands), they have no chance of success in reaching the summit.
Please allow me to state in no uncertain terms what I believe concerning ELOHIM. I believe that ELOHIM is a family of Beings, and some of those Beings are older than others. The oldest is the Ancient of Days. This Supreme Being expanded His Family through creation, and, thus, HaSatan became a Son of ELOHIM.

The question was not whether you believed in a family of God's making. That is without question. The question was whether you had fundamental understanding of scripture. If you do not know that God states that his creations were formed good then you would not be displaying the fundamental understanding of the creation story. So how might we have an informed discussion if you don't yet know how God perceived his own creation?

We can see from the Book of Job, that even after sin was found within him, HaSatan was able to interface with the ELOHIM. I mean, look at the attitude of HaSatan. To me he exhibits many of the characteristics of a rebellious teenager who is quite certain that he knows more than his parents. When asked, this is how HaSatan replies: Job 1:7 And YAHWEH said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered YAHWEH, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

We can all agree as to the new sinful nature of satan and it is clear that he and his followers can still interface with the other created beings.

Of course, you yourself with your extensive knowledge of the Scriptures should immediately recognize the slap in the face that HaSatan was offering right here to YAHWEH. The reply of HaSatan was a direct provocation to YAHWEH because YAHWEH had said concerning HaSatan that he would crawl on his belly, and HaSatan just had to point out to YAHWEH that he was still walking. Does YAHWEH then turn the other cheek? HE sure does. YAHWEH gives HaSatan permission to attack Job in order that HaSatan might learn a critical lesson.

My knowledge of scripture only reaches as far as God will illuminate me.
If God really intended that satan could only move around on his belly then who has the power to prevent him? Your understanding of that verse appears to be incorrect. satan was created an angelic being who originally had the freedom to go where he wanted. scripture tells us that satan and his followers were removed from heaven and limited to existing on earth. One can rationalize that this was the meaning intended for that verse. Keep in mind that satan being an angelic spirit being has no actual legs to be removed and no actual belly that could be crawled on and satan also has the power to appear as anything he wants including a being of light. So your literal perspective does not appear to be valid.
I agree that a lesson was being taught by the action of satan allowed by God but I don't believe that the lesson was intended for satan. It is written that satan's end is already determined so there is no reasoning for the assumption that God intended to give him a lesson.

YAHWEH calls attention to the fact that Job was "perfect and upright". Does this mean that Job had no potential for sin within himself? In other words, could sin have been found within Job as it was found within HaSatan? Absolutely! Otherwise, what do these words by Job mean?: Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. Unlike HaSatan, Job found sin within himself, and Job repented. This HaSatan did and could not do!

Job was born into sin just as every human after Adam. Note carefully the "after" part. It is written Romans 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned... Your analogy between satan and Job is not true. satan was created sinless and perfect and not as a descendant from a previously sinful ancestor. Job may have discerned the sinful nature passed onto him through the action of Adam but even in the face of being born with a sinful nature he was still able to freely choose to follow God's intent. Job was actually at a disadvantage compared to satans original state and he still freely chose to do and follow good.

Now, it is obvious from the Genesis account that Adam and Eve found sin within themselves through eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. How can anyone who has no conception of the nature of Good and Evil like Adam and Eve, how can they themselves be said to be good especially in light of the fact that only ELOHIM is good (see Matthew 19:17)? Yes, be careful, it is rather slippery right here! Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am, Sincerely, Latuwr

It is not obvious from the Genesis account that "Adam and Eve found sin within themselves through eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." You have no scripture to back such an assertion. It is plainly stated that sin entered the world through one man thus, it could not already have been a latent nature of their construction. Man was created good as God testifies. Evil was introduced to mankind by the influence of satan.
Matthew 19:17 is true because of the time when it was said. There was no good by nature among mankind because after the fall from being good (which Adam and Eve were created as and God testifies too) sin was passed on to all descendants. So Christ was perfectly right to claim that none are good since all that are born are literally born into sin.

Now you can continue to assert and infer that man was created flawed but without scriptural evidence to back you then it is simply an invention of the mind. I have provided scripture and logic to back my rebuttal if you cannot do the same then there is not much left to be discussed.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi KBC1963,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

You wrote to me:

"My knowledge of scripture only reaches as far as God will illuminate me."

Well said! All those who belong to My Messiah Yahushua know full well that they are given light by YAHWEH as this scripture teaches:

Isaiah 54:13

13 And all thy children shall be taught of YAHWEH; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Your admission that you have been enlightened tells everyone that you yourself at one time dwelt in darkness, and thus all the Sons of YAHWEH should rightly understand that light arises according to HIS plan from darkness. This is how illumination works, does it not? We dwell in darkness until YAHWEH causes HIS light to arise in us.
"
While this is how illumination worked for you and me, your present teaching denies that this is how illumination worked for Adam and Eve. According to the Genesis account, Adam and Eve began in darkness just like you and me. They had no knowledge of good and evil until they were enlightened. YAHWEH began this process of enlightenment for them by giving them a law, and we all know that law is light. Did Adam and Eve recognize that the commandment given to them was light? Not really, but after they transgressed that commandment they immediately recognized their original created state. They saw and understood their nakedness. Is the state of nakedness according to the Scriptures something that YAHWEH considers good? No, it is not!

So, when YAHWEH says that HIS recreation of the Earth was "good", and that this creation after the creation of Adam and Eve became "very good", could not these adjectives indicate that YAHWEH considered HIS recreation work to be exactly as HE intended it to be, that is, according to HIS plan?

At one time, I had a good Jehovah Witness Friend that would always engage me as you have done on this issue. He would adamantly tell me that YAHWEH does not make plans, and at the same time, he would attempt to teach me that Adam and Eve were different from all their offspring in that they themselves began in illumination and then deliberately fell into darkness. Is this what you also believe concerning Adam and Eve?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[KBC1963]

Hi KBC1963, Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You wrote to me: "My knowledge of scripture only reaches as far as God will illuminate me." Well said! All those who belong to My Messiah Yahushua know full well that they are given light by YAHWEH as this scripture teaches:
Isaiah 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of YAHWEH; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
Your admission that you have been enlightened tells everyone that you yourself at one time dwelt in darkness, and thus all the Sons of YAHWEH should rightly understand that light arises according to HIS plan from darkness. This is how illumination works, does it not? We dwell in darkness until YAHWEH causes HIS light to arise in us.

My admission is that all good understanding comes from our maker and Illumination does not mean that you are informed of all things. It appears to be God's intent that we will learn bit by bit as we strive internally to find the truth and if we trust in him then he will help us to achieve our desire. However, it is also true that if we stop striving to find his truth then he can take from us the illumination we were given.

While this is how illumination worked for you and me, your present teaching denies that this is how illumination worked for Adam and Eve. According to the Genesis account, Adam and Eve began in darkness just like you and me.They had no knowledge of good and evil until they were enlightened. YAHWEH began this process of enlightenment for them by giving them a law, and we all know that law is light. Did Adam and Eve recognize that the commandment given to them was light? Not really, but after they transgressed that commandment they immediately recognized their original created state.

Our situation is different than Adam and Eves. They were not born into sin as we were, in fact, they were not born. They were created into an existence where they apparently did not have to learn how to communicate or learn all about everything like we did and they existed in the very presence of God for a time prior to their fall. So, the fact is that our illumination is different than the first created pair. I notice that you do not provide any scriptural references to your assertions which is not good. You should reconsider your implication that not knowing about evil is darkness. Darkness is described biblically to have a different meaning;
John 3:19-21
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

By your words you imply that God caused evil in us from our origin but this is certainly not the case. Angels were also created and did not know about sin until one of them actually did sin and God states they were created perfect;

Ezekiel 28:13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Man also was perfect in his ways until the tempter did his part. God did not form any creation to disobey him nor did he create anything to learn about evil in order to become perfect. Knowing about evil is an unfortunate and undesirable understanding that came into existence as a possibility of free choice but having free choice does not preclude that the possessor must choose evil. Christ and 2/3 of the angels chose not to disobey when confronted with its possibility. This alone shows us that man was not formed by God in a manner that would force him to learn about evil by doing it.

They saw and understood their nakedness. Is the state of nakedness according to the Scriptures something that YAHWEH considers good? No, it is not! So, when YAHWEH says that HIS recreation of the Earth was "good", and that this creation after the creation of Adam and Eve became "very good", could not these adjectives indicate that YAHWEH considered HIS recreation work to be exactly as HE intended it to be, that is, according to HIS plan? At one time, I had a good Jehovah Witness Friend that would always engage me as you have done on this issue. He would adamantly tell me that YAHWEH does not make plans, and at the same time, he would attempt to teach me that Adam and Eve were different from all their offspring in that they themselves began in illumination and then deliberately fell into darkness. Is this what you also believe concerning Adam and Eve? Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am, Sincerely, Latuwr

God certainly makes plans and makes them ahead of time but, he did not make a plan that we would need to fall in order to learn about evil.

If you had children would you cause them to learn about evil by forming them in such a way that they would learn about it by breaking the law and going to jail?
This is how you are inferring that God created intelligent beings.

Adam and Eve had some illumination but we have no knowledge of the breadth of that illumination. We know that their illumination was greater than our own because they did not begin existence as babies and they were able to walk and talk and understand the meaning of things that God spoke to them about. However, the fact that no created being was given an innate understanding of what evil is does not infer that perfection cannot be attained without that understanding.

To answer your question I will pose a counter question... Was satan created in illumination and then deliberately fell into darkness? or do you believe he was created in a manner that would cause him to have to sin in order to learn about it? if so then how has his experience aided him in becoming perfect?

 

[Ken Brown]

My admission is that all good understanding comes from our maker and Illumination does not mean that you are informed of all things. It appears to be God's intent that we will learn bit by bit as we strive internally to find the truth and if we trust in him then he will help us to achieve our desire. However, it is also true that if we stop striving to find his truth then he can take from us the illumination we were given.


Our situation is different than Adam and Eves. They were not born into sin as we were, in fact, they were not born. They were created into an existence where they apparently did not have to learn how to communicate or learn all about everything like we did and they existed in the very presence of God for a time prior to their fall. So, the fact is that our illumination is different than the first created pair. I notice that you do not provide any scriptural references to your assertions which is not good. You should reconsider your implication that not knowing about evil is darkness. Darkness is described biblically to have a different meaning;
John 3:19-21
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

By your words you imply that God caused evil in us from our origin but this is certainly not the case. Angels were also created and did not know about sin until one of them actually did sin and God states they were created perfect;

Ezekiel 28:13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Man also was perfect in his ways until the tempter did his part. God did not form any creation to disobey him nor did he create anything to learn about evil in order to become perfect. Knowing about evil is an unfortunate and undesirable understanding that came into existence as a possibility of free choice but having free choice does not preclude that the possessor must choose evil. Christ and 2/3 of the angels chose not to disobey when confronted with its possibility. This alone shows us that man was not formed by God in a manner that would force him to learn about evil by doing it.

God certainly makes plans and makes them ahead of time but, he did not make a plan that we would need to fall in order to learn about evil.

If you had children would you cause them to learn about evil by forming them in such a way that they would learn about it by breaking the law and going to jail?
This is how you are inferring that God created intelligent beings.

Adam and Eve had some illumination but we have no knowledge of the breadth of that illumination. We know that their illumination was greater than our own because they did not begin existence as babies and they were able to walk and talk and understand the meaning of things that God spoke to them about. However, the fact that no created being was given an innate understanding of what evil is does not infer that perfection cannot be attained without that understanding.

To answer your question I will pose a counter question... Was satan created in illumination and then deliberately fell into darkness? or do you believe he was created in a manner that would cause him to have to sin in order to learn about it? if so then how has his experience aided him in becoming perfect?

Shalom KBC, I would like to step back in here and give you an answer to your question. Just to let you know, I have been having an extended private conversation with Ron Hackel, and the answer to your question will help him also.

To be sure, Satan was created IN illumination (you cannot walk amidst fiery stones without illumination-Ezekiel 28:14), and this is WHY his REBELLION will not receive any mercy or forgiveness. On the other hand, Elohim did not want the SAME outcome with His RESTORED Family in the REGENERATION (Matthew 19:28), and this is WHY He consigned ALL to disobedience (Romans 11:32), by creating mankind in a corruptible state, that was weak, and dishonorable, and could perish (1 Corinthians 15:42-44). He didn't want another group of Eternal Spirit Beings to rebel against Him, so He created mankind in a destructible state (2 Thessalonians 1:9), to where He could destroy BOTH the body and soul in the Gehenna (Matthew 10:28). The FLESH is how Elohim created mankind, from the DUST of the earth, and this NATURAL man, made as FLESH from the DUST of the earth, had to be FIRST in His Plan, and THEN the Spiritual (1 Corinthians 15:46-47), to where OVER-COMERS (like Messiah and His Elect) can be fully ILLUMINATED as Spiritual Beings that will NOT REBEL against Him as did Satan. Does this clarify it better for you? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

 

[KBC1963]

Shalom KBC, I would like to step back in here and give you an answer to your question. Just to let you know, I have been having an extended private conversation with Ron Hackel, and the answer to your question will help him also.
To be sure, Satan was created IN illumination (you cannot walk amidst fiery stones without illumination-Ezekiel 28:14), and this is WHY his REBELLION will not receive any mercy or forgiveness. On the other hand, Elohim did not want the SAME outcome with His RESTORED Family in the REGENERATION (Matthew 19:28), and this is WHY He consigned ALL to disobedience (Romans 11:32), by creating mankind in a corruptible state, that was weak, and dishonorable, and could perish (1 Corinthians 15:42-44).

you are absolutely wrong. God did not create man in a corruptible state. man was reduced to the corruptible state by sinning, here is the evidence;
Genesis 2:17 ...... for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 2:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

If man had been created corruptible then being threatened with death would have no meaning. I would further point out that the life time of man in the sinful state was also redefined after he became corruptible. Your reference to 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 is not a reference to the creation of man but to the subsequent sinful state of man that occurs in reproduction.

He didn't want another group of Eternal Spirit Beings to rebel against Him, so He created mankind in a destructible state (2 Thessalonians 1:9), to where He could destroy BOTH the body and soul in the Gehenna (Matthew 10:28). The FLESH is how Elohim created mankind, from the DUST of the earth, and this NATURAL man, made as FLESH from the DUST of the earth, had to be FIRST in His Plan, and THEN the Spiritual (1 Corinthians 15:46-47), to where OVER-COMERS (like Messiah and His Elect) can be fully ILLUMINATED as Spiritual Beings that will NOT REBEL against Him as did Satan. Does this clarify it better for you? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

Let's look at 2 Thessalonians 1:9 in context;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Your reference has no reference to the creation of man or any other being having been formed in a destructible state. The fact is that if God created it then he can kill it. ALL created things can be ended. Notice in your scriptural reference that the evil people will be punished by the very presence of the lord and yet the righteous people will not be destroyed by his presence.... What is the difference in the construction of the evil people vs. the good people? were they not made the same?

Now for you assumption that man had to be created this way in order to become over-comers as the only way to become what God has planned for.... if such were the case then all of the fleshly created being would of necessity have to follow the same path to reach the same goal if as you believe it was Gods plan but, you fail to consider those fleshly beings who will come into existence during Christ's 1000 yr reign. If as you believe that a corruptible nature is a necessity to becoming what God wants then you rationale would be asserting that anyone born during Christ's reign would need to also be corruptible.

 

[Ken Brown]

you are absolutely wrong. God did not create man in a corruptible state. man was reduced to the corruptible state by sinning, here is the evidence;
Genesis 2:17 ...... for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 2:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

If man had been created corruptible then being threatened with death would have no meaning. I would further point out that the life time of man in the sinful state was also redefined after he became corruptible. Your reference to 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 is not a reference to the creation of man but to the subsequent sinful state of man that occurs in reproduction.

Let's look at 2 Thessalonians 1:9 in context;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Your reference has no reference to the creation of man or any other being having been formed in a destructible state. The fact is that if God created it then he can kill it. ALL created things can be ended. Notice in your scriptural reference that the evil people will be punished by the very presence of the lord and yet the righteous people will not be destroyed by his presence.... What is the difference in the construction of the evil people vs. the good people? were they not made the same?

Now for you assumption that man had to be created this way in order to become over-comers as the only way to become what God has planned for.... if such were the case then all of the fleshly created being would of necessity have to follow the same path to reach the same goal if as you believe it was Gods plan but, you fail to consider those fleshly beings who will come into existence during Christ's 1000 yr reign. If as you believe that a corruptible nature is a necessity to becoming what God wants then you rationale would be asserting that anyone born during Christ's reign would need to also be corruptible.

Shalom KBC, I understand your reluctance to accept Elohim's Plan, but you will be in disagreement with Paul, as Paul taught plainly that the Creation was subjected to "moral depravity," (G-3153) not of it's OWN choice, but by the CHOICE of the One who subjected it. Then Paul further explains that the HOPE is for the Creation to come INTO the FREEDOM of the GLORY of Elohim's children (a TURNING or DEPARTING from this sin and corruption) (Romans 8:20-22). Those True Children of Elohim are of the Elect, who have been called out of darkness, into the Light, and they are no longer ACTIVELY dwelling IN sin. It is as Yeshua said, "Whosoever committeth sin is the SLAVE of sin," and didn't Adam commit sin? And wasn't Yeshua's PURPOSE to set us FREE from that slavery (John 8:34-36)? Most think it is the "penalty" of sin that a True Believer is set free from, but in reality, ALL manner of sin will be forgiven ALL the children of mankind (Matthew 12:31) with the exception of the same type of sin that Satan committed, sinning against the Spirit AFTER one has been enlightened (Hebrews 6:4-6 & Hebrews 10:26-27). I can assure you that Adam and Eve's sin is forgiven because they committed their sin in ignorance, not KNOWING good and evil, but that was not the case with Satan, and with those whose MIND has been opened to the Truth BY the Spirit of Elohim.

Concerning your point about the 1000 yr reign of Messiah. Satan is bound during those 1000 years and those FLESHLY survivors will have the Spirit of Truth guiding and leading them instead of a spirit of deception. Consider that Yeshua was FLESH, and He did not sin. He was given a FULL measure of the Spirit (John 3:34), and it is ONLY by and through the Spirit of Elohim that FLESH can OVERCOME it's corruptibility and weakness. So during those 1000 years FLESHLY mankind will be LED by the Messiah and His Body, and at the end of those 1000 years, we will see a totally different outcome, as an example to ALL who will come up in the resurrection on the 8th Great Day. At that time, EVERYONE resurrected will be shown the difference of what weak, corruptible, dishonest, and sinful flesh produced the 1st 6000 years under Satan's rule, and what 1000 years under the Spirit of Truth produced. At that time, those who desire to remain in a corruptible and destructible state will receive their desire for ALL of eternity. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[KBC1963]

Shalom KBC, I understand your reluctance to accept Elohim's Plan, but you will be in disagreement with Paul, as Paul taught plainly that the Creation was subjected to "moral depravity," (G-3153) not of it's OWN choice, but by the CHOICE of the One who subjected it. Then Paul further explains that the HOPE is for the Creation to come INTO the FREEDOM of the GLORY of Elohim's children (a TURNING or DEPARTING from this sin and corruption) (Romans 8:20-22).

I am not in disagreement with Paul and I am certainly not reluctant to follow God's plans. Paul indeed taught that the creature was subjected to depravity however, he does not define when the creature was subjected. Your assumption which has no basis in scripture is that the subjection was made at the point of mans creation. This is incorrect and you have no scripture to back such an assertion.

Those True Children of Elohim are of the Elect, who have been called out of darkness, into the Light, and they are no longer ACTIVELY dwelling IN sin. It is as Yeshua said, "Whosoever committeth sin is the SLAVE of sin," and didn't Adam commit sin? And wasn't Yeshua's PURPOSE to set us FREE from that slavery (John 8:34-36)? Most think it is the "penalty" of sin that a True Believer is set free from, but in reality, ALL manner of sin will be forgiven ALL the children of mankind (Matthew 12:31) with the exception of the same type of sin that Satan committed, sinning against the Spirit AFTER one has been enlightened (Hebrews 6:4-6 & Hebrews 10:26-27). I can assure you that Adam and Eve's sin is forgiven because they committed their sin in ignorance, not KNOWING good and evil, but that was not the case with Satan, and with those whose MIND has been opened to the Truth BY the Spirit of Elohim.

I agree with many of the things you are saying but there are some that are not backed by scripture. When you say that all manner of sins will be forgiven ALL the children of men you are entirely wrong. ALL the children of men will not be saved thus their sins will remain imputed and UNFORGIVEN. Do we need to provide scriptural references for what we assert... of course;

Luke 13:23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."

So it is quite clear from just these few scriptures (there are many more) that ALL will not be forgiven. Adam and Eve did not commit their sin in ignorance. They were plainly told not to eat it and that if they did they would die. There is not one tiny bit of their failure that you can attribute to innocence. An innocent sin is one where there has been no command given. reference;
Romans 5:13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Adam was given a law and he knowingly transgressed it plain and simple. Adam and Eve will be saved if they turned from sinning and went back to obeying God. On this we have very little to make a determination on but God knows.

Concerning your point about the 1000 yr reign of Messiah. Satan is bound during those 1000 years and those FLESHLY survivors will have the Spirit of Truth guiding and leading them instead of a spirit of deception. Consider that Yeshua was FLESH, and He did not sin. He was given a FULL measure of the Spirit (John 3:34), and it is ONLY by and through the Spirit of Elohim that FLESH can OVERCOME it's corruptibility and weakness. So during those 1000 years FLESHLY mankind will be LED by the Messiah and His Body, and at the end of those 1000 years, we will see a totally different outcome, as an example to ALL who will come up in the resurrection on the 8th Great Day. At that time, EVERYONE resurrected will be shown the difference of what weak, corruptible, dishonest, and sinful flesh produced the 1st 6000 years under Satan's rule, and what 1000 years under the Spirit of Truth produced. At that time, those who desire to remain in a corruptible and destructible state will receive their desire for ALL of eternity. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Most of what you say here is true but, my point was that your assertion that man cannot achieve the state desired by God except through having a sinful nature is completely contradicted by the fact that men will be born during the reign of Christ and they will not have a sinful nature which by your rationale would not allow them to become what God intends.

Bottom line here is that you have many things stated correctly but some very important things you are assuming to be true that are absolutely not. I have provided references for everything I have asserted and pointed out those things you have not backed with scriptural evidence. To actually have a true discussion here there must be a point where you deal with the things I have pointed to as errors in your rationale otherwise you become nothing more than the broken record forever sounding out the same tune.

 

[Ken Brown]

I am not in disagreement with Paul and I am certainly not reluctant to follow God's plans. Paul indeed taught that the creature was subjected to depravity however, he does not define when the creature was subjected. Your assumption which has no basis in scripture is that the subjection was made at the point of mans creation. This is incorrect and you have no scripture to back such an assertion.

I agree with many of the things you are saying but there are some that are not backed by scripture. When you say that all manner of sins will be forgiven ALL the children of men you are entirely wrong. ALL the children of men will not be saved thus their sins will remain imputed and UNFORGIVEN. Do we need to provide scriptural references for what we assert... of course;

Luke 13:23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."

So it is quite clear from just these few scriptures (there are many more) that ALL will not be forgiven. Adam and Eve did not commit their sin in ignorance. They were plainly told not to eat it and that if they did they would die. There is not one tiny bit of their failure that you can attribute to innocence. An innocent sin is one where there has been no command given. reference;
Romans 5:13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Adam was given a law and he knowingly transgressed it plain and simple. Adam and Eve will be saved if they turned from sinning and went back to obeying God. On this we have very little to make a determination on but God knows.

Most of what you say here is true but, my point was that your assertion that man cannot achieve the state desired by God except through having a sinful nature is completely contradicted by the fact that men will be born during the reign of Christ and they will not have a sinful nature which by your rationale would not allow them to become what God intends.

Bottom line here is that you have many things stated correctly but some very important things you are assuming to be true that are absolutely not. I have provided references for everything I have asserted and pointed out those things you have not backed with scriptural evidence. To actually have a true discussion here there must be a point where you deal with the things I have pointed to as errors in your rationale otherwise you become nothing more than the broken record forever sounding out the same tune.

Shalom KBC, I do appreciate your response, and from how you write, I get the impression that you are sincere, which is good. Your rejection of Elohim's plan is based upon your misunderstanding of how He thinks and works. Take for instance, Yeshua was SLAIN from the foundation of the world:

(Revelation 13:8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And were not the Elect chosen in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world:

(Ephesians 1:4) According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

In fact, before the world began, the hope of eternal life was promised by Elohim:

(Titus 1:2) In hope of eternal life, which Elohim, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

So KBC, you want me to believe that Elohim, KNOWING exactly how mankind was going to go (sin), gave Adam a CHOICE in the matter, and THEN he decided to CONSIGN ALL to disobedience (Romans 11:32) AFTER Adam sinned (leaving Adam out of the possibility for MERCY, because you say Adam was not consigned to sin), and also subjected His CREATION/Creature to DEPRAVITY, by His OWN subjection, and this He did because Adam threw a wrench into His PLAN, by sinning? Do you honestly think that Elohim would design a plan which would allow for Adam NOT to sin?

And here is a Scripture that should cut to your quick:

(1Pet 4:1) Forasmuch then as Messiah hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Suffering in this fleshly existence (Adam was created FLESH), teaches a very valuable lesson, to cease from sin. This fleshly existence is but a short breath, like a shadow that passes away (Psalms 39:5, Psalms 78:39, Psalms 144:4), and when you compare this carnal existence to ALL of eternity, it is nothing but a short gestation period for entering into LIFE. Think about that. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[KBC1963]

Shalom KBC, I do appreciate your response, and from how you write, I get the impression that you are sincere, which is good. Your rejection of Elohim's plan is based upon your misunderstanding of how He thinks and works. Take for instance, Yeshua was SLAIN from the foundation of the world:
(Revelation 13:8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
And were not the Elect chosen in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world:
(Ephesians 1:4) According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
In fact, before the world began, the hope of eternal life was promised by Elohim:
(Titus 1:2) In hope of eternal life, which Elohim, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Ken,
Please note here that I absolutely DO NOT reject God's plans in any way shape or form. I do however, presently reject your interpretation of God's plan so I ask that you not persist in asserting that your interpretation is the absolute truth by which my POV is judged by. You are free to state at any time that I reject your perception of what you believe to be true and this would be an acceptable statement between us but until you can provide evidence to show that your interpretation is indeed what God's intent is then you might well be just like the people who argued with Job who were convinced of their understanding about God prior to God's interjection in the argument.
I would also like to convey that i do not consider my POV as an absolute thing either. It is my intent to consider all the arguments in this discussion in the hopes that I can make sure that I have not overlooked any of God's words which you may possibly bring to my attention because, it is written that we shall live by every word of the mouth of God not by every word of Ken or KBC. This is why it is important that you provide scriptural references for your 'beliefs' and why I keep urging you to provide such along with your POV.

Now I ask that you carefully consider and give me an explanation for why Ephesians and Titus make their references of time to "before the foundation of the world" and why Revelation references time "from the foundation of the world"

So KBC, you want me to believe that Elohim, KNOWING exactly how mankind was going to go (sin), gave Adam a CHOICE in the matter, and THEN he decided to CONSIGN ALL to disobedience (Romans 11:32) AFTER Adam sinned (leaving Adam out of the possibility for MERCY, because you say Adam was not consigned to sin), and also subjected His CREATION/Creature to DEPRAVITY, by His OWN subjection, and this He did because Adam threw a wrench into His PLAN, by sinning? Do you honestly think that Elohim would design a plan which would allow for Adam NOT to sin?
And here is a Scripture that should cut to your quick:
(1Pet 4:1) Forasmuch then as Messiah hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
Suffering in this fleshly existence (Adam was created FLESH), teaches a very valuable lesson, to cease from sin. This fleshly existence is but a short breath, like a shadow that passes away (Psalms 39:5, Psalms 78:39, Psalms 144:4), and when you compare this carnal existence to ALL of eternity, it is nothing but a short gestation period for entering into LIFE. Think about that. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Again your interpretation of scripture is forcing you to assert that God planned sin into the creation of mankind. I have rejected this interpretation.
Adam was not created with a sinful nature any more than satan was and Adam was not left out of the possibility for mercy. All could not be consigned to sin until Adam sinned because sin had not entered the world until Adam made that fateful decision.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world....
It is clearly stated here Ken that sin entered the world by one man.... not by one God. Suffering also did not begin at the point of a fleshly existence.... it began after sin entered the world and God made this decree;
Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground...

Until sin occurred all flesh enjoyed an existence without harm. God alludes to a return to that state of existence for flesh once again in several scriptures... here is one ;
Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain....

God did not and could not design a plan that would prevent Adam from sinning because such a plan would of necessity remove freedom of choice and thus we would not be created in God's image. Our current fleshly existence is indeed limited but this is because we are born into sin. There will come a time (Christ's millennial reign) where ALL FLESH shall come into existence and continue to exist without death or harm because It is written that;
Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain....

You have consistently held to the perspective that flesh = sinful but I have repeatedly shown you that flesh does not equal sinful because fleshly existence will continue into the Reign of Christ and will enjoy a continued existence without death and misery. You assume that man will not continue in the manner that they were first created but you should remember:

"...Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain..."

 

[Ken Brown]

Ken,
Please note here that I absolutely DO NOT reject God's plans in any way shape or form. I do however, presently reject your interpretation of God's plan so I ask that you not persist in asserting that your interpretation is the absolute truth by which my POV is judged by. You are free to state at any time that I reject your perception of what you believe to be true and this would be an acceptable statement between us but until you can provide evidence to show that your interpretation is indeed what God's intent is then you might well be just like the people who argued with Job who were convinced of their understanding about God prior to God's interjection in the argument.
I would also like to convey that i do not consider my POV as an absolute thing either. It is my intent to consider all the arguments in this discussion in the hopes that I can make sure that I have not overlooked any of God's words which you may possibly bring to my attention because, it is written that we shall live by every word of the mouth of God not by every word of Ken or KBC. This is why it is important that you provide scriptural references for your 'beliefs' and why I keep urging you to provide such along with your POV.

Now I ask that you carefully consider and give me an explanation for why Ephesians and Titus make their references of time to "before the foundation of the world" and why Revelation references time "from the foundation of the world"

Again your interpretation of scripture is forcing you to assert that God planned sin into the creation of mankind. I have rejected this interpretation.
Adam was not created with a sinful nature any more than satan was and Adam was not left out of the possibility for mercy. All could not be consigned to sin until Adam sinned because sin had not entered the world until Adam made that fateful decision.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world....
It is clearly stated here Ken that sin entered the world by one man.... not by one God. Suffering also did not begin at the point of a fleshly existence.... it began after sin entered the world and God made this decree;
Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground...

Until sin occurred all flesh enjoyed an existence without harm. God alludes to a return to that state of existence for flesh once again in several scriptures... here is one ;
Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain....

God did not and could not design a plan that would prevent Adam from sinning because such a plan would of necessity remove freedom of choice and thus we would not be created in God's image. Our current fleshly existence is indeed limited but this is because we are born into sin. There will come a time (Christ's millennial reign) where ALL FLESH shall come into existence and continue to exist without death or harm because It is written that;
Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain....

You have consistently held to the perspective that flesh = sinful but I have repeatedly shown you that flesh does not equal sinful because fleshly existence will continue into the Reign of Christ and will enjoy a continued existence without death and misery. You assume that man will not continue in the manner that they were first created but you should remember:

"...Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain..."

Shalom KBC, good response, thank you for giving it. I don't want you to think I look down on you, or that I feel you are less of value to Elohim than myself. You may be of much greater value in Elohim's plan than I could ever try to attain too, so I would not want you to think I am being derogatory with you. That being said, I do have some criticism to your thinking and writing, in hope that it will cause you to excel.

You first want me to note that you do not reject Elohim's plans, yet, IF Elohim's plans were for Him to create "flesh and blood" carnal/natural man, BEFORE He brought in The Man from Heaven (1 Corinthians 15:45-46), then you do appear to be rejecting His PLAN. Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, can you explain to me WHY that is so (1 Corinthians 15:50)? Would you think that Paul gleaned that understanding from (Deuteronomy 12:23 & Deuteronomy 12:27)? Or maybe from what Yeshua said (Matthew 16:17)? Yet, Yeshua said that UNLESS you eat His FLESH, and drink His BLOOD, there is no life in you (John 6:53-54)? Are you of the opinion that Adam and Eve ATE the FLESH and DRANK the BLOOD of Yeshua BEFORE they sinned? Did they have life in them before they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? Cannot you see that Elohim's PLAN was to educate carnal/natural man (again-Matthew 16:17), so that mankind COULD eat the FLESH and drink the BLOOD of Yeshua, so that they could have LIFE?

You ask another question concerning the difference from Paul's "before the foundation of the world" in his statement concerning our election and Elohim's promise, to Revelations description of Yeshua's slaying "from the foundation of the world." My explanation for what you think is a discrepancy, would be to tell you that Elohim PLANNED our election and promised eternal life BEFORE the foundation of the world, and once He implemented that founding, sin and rebellion occurred, thus the slaying of Yeshua FROM that founding started. Hebrews plainly shows that SIN is what places Yeshua upon the cross (Hebrews 6:6), and even Yeshua asked the Jews "none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill (slay) me," so it is apparent that the slaying of Yeshua, FROM the foundation of the world, is a result of sin and rebellion (not obeying the WILL of Elohim) AFTER the founding/foundation of the world, wouldn't you think? And it stills begs the question, why create carnal/natural man FIRST, and not the Spiritual Man from Heaven?

Now, you continue to reject the concept or idea that Elohim can CONSIGN ALL (including Adam and Eve) to disobedience (Romans 11:32), based upon your belief that He could not consign man to sin UNTIL man (Adam) sinned. That once Adam sinned, bringing sin INTO the world, this FREEWILL act of disobedience, with FULL knowledge of Adam KNOWING that what he was doing was wrong, allowed Elohim to consign the rest of mankind to become SLAVES of sin and disobedience. What you fail to believe is that IF one has KNOWLEDGE, and UNDERSTANDS what their sin will do, there is no MERCY or FORGIVENESS, if they sin (Hebrews 6:4-6) It is clear that IF one tries to COVER up their sin/nakedness (Genesis 3:7), without confessing and forsaking that sin, there will be NO MERCY (Proverbs 28:13). Yet, somehow you feel that Adam will fall under the same MERCY that ALL of mankind receives, even though he tried to cover his nakedness/sin, and was, in your opinion, NOT consigned to sin as the rest of man was.

Then you raise the issue of the "wolf and lamb, etc" dwelling together, and I contend that can ONLY happen through and BY Elohim's Spirit and influence, which will happen during the Messiah's Millennial Reign. Satan and his deception will be handcuffed, thus allowing for remarkable progress with FLESHLY man in OVERCOMING their FLESH and EATING and DRINKING from Yeshua's FLESH and BLOOD. Here again, I ask, DID Adam and Eve EAT the Flesh and Drink the Blood of Messiah before they acquired the Knowledge of Good and Evil? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

P.S. KBC, please give me your understanding of why you think rebellion and sin is DESTROYED, and that for ALL of Eternity, The Children of Elohim will be or remain obedient, and not follow in Adam's footsteps?

 

[KBC1963]

You first want me to note that you do not reject Elohim's plans, yet, IF Elohim's plans were for Him to create "flesh and blood" carnal/natural man, BEFORE He brought in The Man from Heaven (1 Corinthians 15:45-46), then you do appear to be rejecting His PLAN. Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, can you explain to me WHY that is so (1 Corinthians 15:50)? Would you think that Paul gleaned that understanding from (Deuteronomy 12:23 & Deuteronomy 12:27)? Or maybe from what Yeshua said (Matthew 16:17)? Yet, Yeshua said that UNLESS you eat His FLESH, and drink His BLOOD, there is no life in you (John 6:53-54)? Are you of the opinion that Adam and Eve ATE the FLESH and DRANK the BLOOD of Yeshua BEFORE they sinned? Did they have life in them before they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? Cannot you see that Elohim's PLAN was to educate carnal/natural man (again-Matthew 16:17), so that mankind COULD eat the FLESH and drink the BLOOD of Yeshua, so that they could have LIFE?

Ken, Have you heard me state that you have rejected God's plan? It should be obvious from my statements that I don't agree with what you state God's plan is so essentially I could make the same assertion you do about rejecting God's plan but I don't. We are here to learn I hope, and not to arbitrarily accuse one another. If you wish to convey understanding it must come with scriptural backing and a rational assertion for its meaning. I asked you not to accuse me by way of your interpretation because I do not accuse you by way of mine. If we are both followers of God then there should be no fractioning of his body.

Flesh and blood alone cannot inherit the kingdom however, Flesh and blood and spirit can. Under Christ's millennial reign there will be flesh and blood mankind along with flesh and blood creatures. If you read Isaiah 11:6-9 carefully you will find that God is turning everything back to the way it was in the beginning. The animals will be reverted back to non-carnivorous creatures and mankind will exist among them without any fear of being harmed. Flesh and blood beings will have the spirit of God just as he intended them to have it and they will indeed exist in God's holy kingdom just as it is written. Your assumption that God created flesh and blood as an evil form does not follow with the revealed plan he has defined. God created flesh and blood mankind for Christ, to represent their image and had man not erred they would have attained that state. Even Isaiah spoke about the state of the new kingdom of God;

Isaiah 65:17-25 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

God's kingdom will have all the creations he first had in the beginning, flesh and blood creatures including mankind as well as all the plants and trees, because his creation was/is good as it was originally formed. All these creations will be found within the Kingdom of God. When mankind fell and lost the presence of God they became simply flesh and blood without God's spirit and in this state they cannot be part of God's kingdom because God must be all in all.
When Adam and Eve were created they were not formed in a finished state, they were to learn and eventually attain to the final state and had they kept God's commandments then they would have achieved it. Christ speaks about this beginning time with mankind; Proverbs 8:22-31 ....Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

You ask another question concerning the difference from Paul's "before the foundation of the world" in his statement concerning our election and Elohim's promise, to Revelations description of Yeshua's slaying "from the foundation of the world." My explanation for what you think is a discrepancy, would be to tell you that Elohim PLANNED our election and promised eternal life BEFORE the foundation of the world, and once He implemented that founding, sin and rebellion occurred, thus the slaying of Yeshua FROM that founding started. Hebrews plainly shows that SIN is what places Yeshua upon the cross (Hebrews 6:6), and even Yeshua asked the Jews "none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill (slay) me," so it is apparent that the slaying of Yeshua, FROM the foundation of the world, is a result of sin and rebellion (not obeying the WILL of Elohim) AFTER the founding/foundation of the world, wouldn't you think? And it stills begs the question, why create carnal/natural man FIRST, and not the Spiritual Man from Heaven?

Please note Ken that I don't believe its a discrepancy, it is a difference. I agree with part of your statement God absolutely promised that man would have eternal life... it was reiterated within the statement; Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.... We cannot be the image of God and Christ unless we have eternal life. So know that promises were made to Christ before the founding of the world however, here is the rub... Christ's sacrifice was not planned before the founding of the world, his sacrifice was determined at the founding or beginning of the world once mankind fell. If as you think this fall and all else was part of God's plan from its inception then Christ would have been sacrificed from before the founding just as the promises were made before the founding and the wording of the references you give would have all said "before the foundation of the world" but obviously they don't all say that.

Now, you continue to reject the concept or idea that Elohim can CONSIGN ALL (including Adam and Eve) to disobedience (Romans 11:32)...

Ken I reject that Adam and Eve were consigned to disobedience from their creation. Do you comprehend the meaning in my statement? Adam and Eve were not consigned to disobedience until after they disobeyed. The reason God could consign all mankind to disobedience can be understood from this scripture;
Hebrews 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

All of mankind was still in the loins of Adam when Adam sinned and if Levi could be considered to have payed tithes while still being in the loins of Abraham then all Adams offspring are also sinners when Adam sinned. Thus we are consigned to be born into sin because we were yet within Adams loins when he fell from perfection and was consigned to disobedience or given into the control of the god of this world.
I don't fail to believe "that IF one has KNOWLEDGE, and UNDERSTANDS what their sin will do, there is no MERCY or FORGIVENESS, if they sin" I do however, reject your interpretation. God has stated that where no command has been given then sin is not imputed which means that even before we are made to understand how we are sinning we are still committing sinful acts and after the commandments were given man continued to sin. When Christ came he came for sinners who were sinners after the commandments were given.
Your reference to Romans 11:32 is a message for those who repented and received the holy Ghost and then turned back to a sinful existence. Read it carefully;
. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

If you repent and are baptized and get the holy spirit from God and then turn around and go back to sinning then there is no more forgiveness to be gotten. Its plain and clear what is unforgiveable. there are sinners who know they are sinning who have not yet turned from their sinning and have not repented and have not had the holy spirit who can still be forgiven. How about a review of these scriptures to expand my statement; Ezekiel 18:19-32

 

[Ken Brown]

I asked you not to accuse me by way of your interpretation because I do not accuse you by way of mine. If we are both followers of God then there should be no fractioning of his body. (KBC, are we not to test the spirits [1 John 4:1], and contend for the Truth [Acts of the Apostles 13:46, Acts of the Apostles 15:2, Acts of the Apostles 17:17, Acts of the Apostles 18:24-28, 1 Corinthians 11:19, 2 Corinthians 13:8, Ephesians 4:25), so that those who are in error, can be corrected gently (2 Timothy 2:24-26). Is that not what you try to do?

When Adam and Eve were created they were not formed in a finished state, they were to learn and eventually attain to the final state and had they kept God's commandments then they would have achieved it. Christ speaks about this beginning time with mankind; Proverbs 8:22-31 ....Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. (KBC, please re-read all of Proverbs 8. It is speaking of WISDOM, not all the literal/physical things He created. You should start to look at the RENEWAL of the Earth [6000 years ago], as a physical reflection of what TRUE Spiritual realities are. Physical man IS currently the Glory and Image of Elohim (1 Corinthians 11:7), and whoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for man is made in the Image of Elohim (Genesis 9:6). You would do well to re-think how you view what it means to be created in Elohim's Image, and what ALL the animals and plants picture.)

Please note Ken that I don't believe its a discrepancy, it is a difference. (KBC, what do you mean, discrepancy means "a lack of compatibility or similarity between two or more facts." There was a discrepancy between "before" and "from," why else would you contend the point?) Christ's sacrifice was not planned before the founding of the world, his sacrifice was determined at the founding or beginning of the world once mankind fell (KBC, that is not correct. Please read what Peter said (1 Peter 1:19-20). How can Messiah be FOREORDAINED to have His Precious Blood shed, BEFORE the Foundation of the World, IF His Sacrifice was not planned BEFORE that founding of the world?) If as you think this fall and all else was part of God's plan from its inception then Christ would have been sacrificed from before the founding just as the promises were made before the founding and the wording of the references you give would have all said "before the foundation of the world" but obviously they don't all say that. (KBC, please re-read ALL of Ephesians 1, especially Ephesians 1:4-5, and Ephesians 1:11-13. Paul tells us that those who have trusted in the Word of Truth (the Gospel of our Salvation-Yeshua's sacrifice) were PREDESTINATED and CHOSEN BEFORE the foundation of the world, to be ADOPTED as Children INTO Yeshua Messah, according to the pleasure of His Will. How can you say that Yeshua's Sacrifice was not PLANNED before the founding of the world?

Ken I reject that Adam and Eve were consigned to disobedience from their creation. Do you comprehend the meaning in my statement? Adam and Eve were not consigned to disobedience until after they disobeyed. The reason God could consign all mankind to disobedience can be understood from this scripture;
Hebrews 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

All of mankind was still in the loins of Adam when Adam sinned and if Levi could be considered to have payed tithes while still being in the loins of Abraham then all Adams offspring are also sinners when Adam sinned. Thus we are consigned to be born into sin because we were yet within Adams loins when he fell from perfection and was consigned to disobedience or given into the control of the god of this world. (KBC, Paul saw that his consigning and being sold INTO sin/disobedience, was the result of being FLESH [Romans 7:14, Romans 7:18, Romans 7:25, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3], the FLESH cannot and will not OBEY, it is impossible [Romans 8:8], and Adam was CREATED flesh [Genesis 2:23], and the fact that he was FORMED to BE a LIVING SOUL [Genesis 2:7], IS exactly how EVERYONE turned out to be, just like him, with a predisposition to sin, because of the FLESH.)

1Cor 15:45-49

(45) So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” (Genesis 2:23 - BEFORE sin) The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

(46) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. (Adam was the NATURAL/EARTHY/FLESHLY man that was SOWN/CREATED in weakness, dishonor, and was perishable [1 Corinthians 15:42-44], and in Elohim's PLAN, he was FIRST, not the Spiritual Man.)

(47) The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. (It cannot be argued that the FIRST man from the earth, was "earthy" AFTER he sinned. This condition of BEING a "living soul" that is formed OUT of the earth, BEFORE any sin entered in, was CREATED/SOWN in weakness, dishonor, and was perishable. And ALL have borne that SAME image of the earthy, exactly HOW Adam was CREATED/SOWN, with a PREDISPOSITION to sin because of his fleshly existence.)

(48) As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.

(49) Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

I don't fail to believe "that IF one has KNOWLEDGE, and UNDERSTANDS what their sin will do, there is no MERCY or FORGIVENESS, if they sin" I do however, reject your interpretation. God has stated that where no command has been given then sin is not imputed which means that even before we are made to understand how we are sinning we are still committing sinful acts and after the commandments were given man continued to sin (KBC, and that is exactly what happened to Adam, for BEFORE he was given a command, he had a predisposition to sin, but it was only after he was given the command, did he acquire imputed sin, by transgressing that command). When Christ came he came for sinners who were sinners after the commandments were given.
Your reference to Romans 11:32 is a message for those who repented and received the holy Ghost and then turned back to a sinful existence. Read it carefully; (KBC, you must have became confused with Romans 11:32 and Hebrews 6:4, and you need to re-read Romans 11:32, as it is speaking about BEFORE someone comes to a Knowledge of the Truth, and sins in ignorance (Luke 23:34, Acts of the Apostles 3:17), and THEN if they do not try to "cover" their sin/nakeness and HIDE, like Adam did (Genesis 3:7-8), but rather ADMIT their sin, and TURN from it (Acts of the Apostles 2:37-38, Proverbs 28:13, Acts of the Apostles 3:19-26).
. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

If you repent and are baptized and get the holy spirit from God and then turn around and go back to sinning then there is no more forgiveness to be gotten. Its plain and clear what is unforgiveable. there are sinners who know they are sinning who have not yet turned from their sinning and have not repented and have not had the holy spirit who can still be forgiven. How about a review of these scriptures to expand my statement; Ezekiel 18:19-32 (KBC, yes, if a righteous man TURNS from his righteousness, NONE of his righteousness will be remembered, just as when the wicked TURN from their iniquities, NONE of their iniquities will be remembered [Acts of the Apostles 3:26).

Shalom KBC, thank you again for the reply. Most of my response is embedded in blue inside your quote above. I would like for you to also consider several other things concerning Elohim's PLAN.

1. There is an INHERITANCE planned by Elohim for ALL who overcome-are sanctified. (Acts of the Apostles 20:32, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:8, Colossians 1:12-13, Colossians 3:24-25, Revelation 21:7-8).

2. That INHERITANCE was PLANNED BEFORE/FROM the Foundation of the World. (Ephesians 1:4-5, Matthew 25:34, John 17:24, James 2:5)

3. That INHERITANCE is not given to the Servants or Slaves of sin, but rather, the Servants or Slaves of Righteousness. (Romans 6:17-23, John 8:34-36)

4. To OVERCOME and receive the INHERITANCE, the Word of Truth is PLANTED in our HEARTS (Deuteronomy 6:6, Luke 8:15, John 17:17, Ephesians 5:26, James 1:21), even though Elohim subjected us to lust and moral depravity (Romans 8:20, Zechariah 12:1, James 4:5), His desire is that we come to the Knowledge of the Truth, and be delivered out from that predisposed desire to sin (our fleshly desires), and from our hearts, no longer sin (Romans 6:2, Romans 6:6, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:18).

I know there is a lot for you to consume here, but please take it to heart, as I am only trying to do as you want me to. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew