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The LDS Doctrine of the Afterlife
- Thread starter Katzpur
- Start date
Another thought on the "Three Degrees of Glory." We know there are degrees of Glory within the three degrees of glory. They all depend on our progression. In the Celestial Kingdom, if one attains the highest degree, they can progress forever. We have the ability to progress within the other two kingdoms (Terresstrial and Telestial) but at some point our progression stops. Our goal in choosing to come to this life was to return to God. If we can make it, the blessings will go on through eternity.
Kenaz
I Am
In 2 Corinthians 12:2, we read: I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knowethsuch an one caught up to the third heaven. Here we have a very definite reference to the fact that there is more than one Heaven or that Heaven is made up of more than one part.
In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul discusses the afterlife. In verses 40-42, he alludes to the doctrine of multiple kingdoms within Heaven when he says: There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.
This makes me think to the experience many have in an out-of-body-experience (OBE), one of which I have had as a child. Also, many countless tales of others who are in a subtler 'place' with a subtler 'body,' but different than this present one.
Many people also experience much of what is described in a near-death-experience (NDE). Very fascinating.
How do other Mormons or the Church feel about these experiecnes that are often felt, but rarely seriously taken and thus rarely shared? I think it happens much more than people will admit, accept, or remember for that matter (due to the previous two examples of doubt and mockery that one would receive in their culture/society/community for sharing it).
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I haven't actually talked to a lot of other Mormons about it, but I do know that one of the first books I ever saw about an NDE was written by a Mormon woman. It was pretty popular at the time, but I can't even remember the author's name or the name of the book now. I'm pretty sure the Church has never come out with any kind of statement one way or the other on the subject.
Confucian Mormon Buddhist
Member
Hold up. I swear that when I've read stuff about Mormonism, listened to lessons in church, and talked to missionaries, they said that even the righteous non-Mormons go to Spirit Prison? Whereas you're saying that righteous non-Mormons go to Spirit Paradise?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Quite honestly, I don't know who goes where. I don't know if there is even an official doctrine delineating where people go. What I do know is that Jesus Christ told the repentant thief who hung next to him on the cross that He'd see him that day "in Paradise." This individual could hardly be called a Mormon.
I think the important thing to remember is that the divisions in the Spirit World are probably more a state of mind than an actual physical location, and that people end up where they end up after death with a state of mind that is in line with how they lived their lives. A "righteous" person, regardless of the religion he practiced on earth, would still probably be tormented by the realization that he'd done many things in life that were not righteous. Waiting for Judgment Day, he'd know he was still going to have to be accountable to God for the times he'd sinned -- because all have sinned. Imagine the relief this person would experience when he learned that all was not lost, that sincere repentance, faith in Jesus Christ, and a posthumous baptism could completely turn things around for him! I suspect that this may have been the kind of person the thief on the cross was. He may have been an overall decent man who resorted to stealing once to feed his family and was then caught, tried, and crucified. We can't possibly know.
Also -- my own opinion here -- I don't think it's going to be "Mormons" and "non-Mormons" in the Spirit World. I think it's just going to be that some people will have a better understanding of God's Plan than others, and are going to be sharing it with those who don't.
I think that's an accurate statement.
POST ONE OF THREE
Confucian Mormon Buddhist said : “I swear that when I've read stuff about Mormonism, listened to lessons in church, and talked to missionaries, they said that even the righteous non-Mormons go to Spirit Prison? Whereas you're saying that righteous non-Mormons go to Spirit Paradise?”
Katzpur replied : “I think the important thing to remember is that the divisions in the Spirit World are probably more a state of mind than an actual physical location…..”
Hi to you Confucian Mormon Buddhist and Katzpur :
1) Regarding the condition of the Righteous (i.e. those seeking to improve) after death and while in the spirit world.
I like Katzpurs’ defining point that, though all righteous individuals end up in the spirit world, the degree of peace versus discomfort depends upon their state of mind.
Regarding the ancient righteous prophets as an example. D&C 138 : 49 says that “even the prophets who dwelt among the Nephites” who were in the world of spirits, were waiting “for their deliverance” because they “looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.”.
These are righteous individuals who awaited a future glorified resurrected state. However, inasmuch as they longed for a more joyful future, saw their present, less glorified condition as a “bondage” of sorts. I will refer to early Christian documents to demonstrate ancient descriptions of this restored doctrine.
In both ancient descriptions and in descriptions inside restoration theology, these divisions among the righteous do not seemed to be describes as divisions between “Christians” and “non-Christians”, but in their state of minds, which are, to a certain extent, affected by their prior lives. I very much agree with Katzpurs point when she says “I don't think it's going to be "Mormons" and "non-Mormons" in the Spirit World.”
2) “THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE” (The world of spirits after death)
In describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, sometimes "HELL" is used. Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion. For example the ancient Judeo-Christian description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2 En 8:5) uses the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “thou shalt be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” the thief Dymas was promised in this context, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven.
This is the same point phillip makes in speaking of mankind be saying: “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)
All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc. before they are resurrected and enter the place beyond.
The prophet Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). But more on this later.
The Hebrew word Elam Ha-ha ("the world to come") is used to describe the afterlife (as well as the messianic age). In this context, for the righteous, the world to come is something to look forward to. A passage from the Mishna says, "This world is like a lobby before the Elam Ha-ha. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall." The tractate Mode Kat an teaches, "This world is only like a hotel. The world to come is like a home." These echo one later logos of Jesus : “This life is like a bridge, we cross over, but we do not make our home here.” Indeed, in this early theology, our real home was elsewhere.
Since terms describing the afterlife are often simply figurative observations of the desd, the terms should be expected to change, depending upon the context of the discussion.
An early common textual theme is that death meant rejoining one's ancestors. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and other patriarchs are "gathered to their people" after death (see Gen. 25:8, 25:17, 35:29, 49:33; Deut. 42:50; 2 I. 22:20). In contrast, the wicked are "cut off (carried-out) from their people" (Gen. 17:14; Ex. 31:14). Both the “gathering” and the “cutting off” refer to the same event, merely different contexts of the same event.
3) ALL WHO DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world.
Quote: “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
Quote: “ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
Quote: “For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
POST TWO OF THREE FOLLOWS
Confucian Mormon Buddhist said : “I swear that when I've read stuff about Mormonism, listened to lessons in church, and talked to missionaries, they said that even the righteous non-Mormons go to Spirit Prison? Whereas you're saying that righteous non-Mormons go to Spirit Paradise?”
Katzpur replied : “I think the important thing to remember is that the divisions in the Spirit World are probably more a state of mind than an actual physical location…..”
Hi to you Confucian Mormon Buddhist and Katzpur :
1) Regarding the condition of the Righteous (i.e. those seeking to improve) after death and while in the spirit world.
I like Katzpurs’ defining point that, though all righteous individuals end up in the spirit world, the degree of peace versus discomfort depends upon their state of mind.
Regarding the ancient righteous prophets as an example. D&C 138 : 49 says that “even the prophets who dwelt among the Nephites” who were in the world of spirits, were waiting “for their deliverance” because they “looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.”.
These are righteous individuals who awaited a future glorified resurrected state. However, inasmuch as they longed for a more joyful future, saw their present, less glorified condition as a “bondage” of sorts. I will refer to early Christian documents to demonstrate ancient descriptions of this restored doctrine.
In both ancient descriptions and in descriptions inside restoration theology, these divisions among the righteous do not seemed to be describes as divisions between “Christians” and “non-Christians”, but in their state of minds, which are, to a certain extent, affected by their prior lives. I very much agree with Katzpurs point when she says “I don't think it's going to be "Mormons" and "non-Mormons" in the Spirit World.”
2) “THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE” (The world of spirits after death)
In describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, sometimes "HELL" is used. Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion. For example the ancient Judeo-Christian description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2 En 8:5) uses the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “thou shalt be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” the thief Dymas was promised in this context, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven.
This is the same point phillip makes in speaking of mankind be saying: “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)
All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc. before they are resurrected and enter the place beyond.
The prophet Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). But more on this later.
The Hebrew word Elam Ha-ha ("the world to come") is used to describe the afterlife (as well as the messianic age). In this context, for the righteous, the world to come is something to look forward to. A passage from the Mishna says, "This world is like a lobby before the Elam Ha-ha. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall." The tractate Mode Kat an teaches, "This world is only like a hotel. The world to come is like a home." These echo one later logos of Jesus : “This life is like a bridge, we cross over, but we do not make our home here.” Indeed, in this early theology, our real home was elsewhere.
Since terms describing the afterlife are often simply figurative observations of the desd, the terms should be expected to change, depending upon the context of the discussion.
An early common textual theme is that death meant rejoining one's ancestors. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and other patriarchs are "gathered to their people" after death (see Gen. 25:8, 25:17, 35:29, 49:33; Deut. 42:50; 2 I. 22:20). In contrast, the wicked are "cut off (carried-out) from their people" (Gen. 17:14; Ex. 31:14). Both the “gathering” and the “cutting off” refer to the same event, merely different contexts of the same event.
3) ALL WHO DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world.
Quote: “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
Quote: “ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
Quote: “For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
POST TWO OF THREE FOLLOWS
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POST TWO OF THREE
None of these references refer to the "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).
The LDS (mormon) scripture relates the same principle regarding this spirit world and, speaks of these spirits who "mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance, For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage." Thus it was often referred to as a "prison" of sorts.
In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel :
Quote: .”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1 Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law :
Quote: “Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)
It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood (as the Latter Day Saints claim), that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. From the testimony of early christian texts we see the early doctrine where individuals in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.
Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to chose.
4) The descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death
Just as the doctrine of Sheol or Hades is mirrored by modern LDS doctrines, the descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.
One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks he risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”
In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying :
Quote: "I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)
The LDS will find unmistakable parallels to their restored version of this ancient doctrine in these ancient textual witnesses.
5) An example from ancient Christian literature regarding the “non-LDS righteous” in the spirit world
The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :
Quote: “Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians and were NOT baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).
Quote: “We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)
I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel and many other spirits are also “called to testify” and teach gospel truths to the others in the spirit world. The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”
Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen.
POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS
None of these references refer to the "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).
The LDS (mormon) scripture relates the same principle regarding this spirit world and, speaks of these spirits who "mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance, For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage." Thus it was often referred to as a "prison" of sorts.
In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel :
Quote: .”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1 Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law :
Quote: “Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)
It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood (as the Latter Day Saints claim), that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. From the testimony of early christian texts we see the early doctrine where individuals in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.
Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to chose.
4) The descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death
Just as the doctrine of Sheol or Hades is mirrored by modern LDS doctrines, the descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.
One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks he risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”
In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying :
Quote: "I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)
The LDS will find unmistakable parallels to their restored version of this ancient doctrine in these ancient textual witnesses.
5) An example from ancient Christian literature regarding the “non-LDS righteous” in the spirit world
The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :
Quote: “Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians and were NOT baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).
Quote: “We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)
I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel and many other spirits are also “called to testify” and teach gospel truths to the others in the spirit world. The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”
Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen.
POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS
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POST THREE OF THREE
In chapter four, Satan adjures Hades to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.
The sons of Symeon continue to relate that :
Quote: Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “
Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify :
Quote: “All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)
Even Symeons sons were authorized by Michael and sent to teach of the resurrection of Jesus. However FIRST, they were appointed by Michael to “first to go to the Jordan and be baptized.” “There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again.” The ancient Christian pattern was that baptism was required of all who could do it and there was a reason the covenant was given BEFORE teaching or testifying. I do not think even one of a thousand LDS have ever read these early Christian histories, yet they understand exactly what is happening and why these dead who were resurrected were sent to be baptized FIRST before anything else. I’ve never seen another group that “speak” the ancient doctrinal language like the LDS. (How many others even know or understand this stuff?)
6) There are other ancient Christian texts that also describe the ancient Christian faith in relation to their dead in this spirit world.
For example, the ancient text from the diary of a Christian woman Perpetua (The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity) is the story of a new convert to Christianity. The specific doctrines that this new convert was taught and believed in are quite poignant AND, impressively, they continue to mirror the LDS doctrine that the dead may receive the gospel knowledge.
First, Perpetua relates :
Quote: “my father, furious at the word ‘Christian,’ threw himself upon me as though to pluck out my eyes but he was satisfied with annoying me;...Then I thanked the Lord for being parted for a few days from my father, and was refreshed by his absence. During those few days we were baptized, and the Holy Spirit bade me make no other petition after the holy water save for bodily endurance. A few days after we were lodged in prison; and I was in great fear, because I had never known such darkness. What a day of horror! Terrible heat, thanks to the crowds! Rough handling by the soldiers! To crown all I was tormented there by anxiety for my baby. (The Passion of Perpetual and Felicity ch three)
Perpetua, who understood the ancient doctrine that all saints were to receive revelation for themselves is asked by her brother to ask God whether they might expect deliverance or ultimately be martyred.
Quote: “Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who new myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’
Perpetua understands that she may ask God for revelation in a prayer and has every confidence that her prayer will be answered. She then made her request of God, and received a vision that confirmed they would be martyred and “...at once I told my brother, and we understood that we must suffer, and henceforward began to have no hope in this world.”
Perpetua understood also that she could make specific and limited requests for those who were dead in the same way that she could ask for specific and limited requests for the living. Perpetua had another Brother Dinocrates who had died as a child, untaught and unbaptized and, who, she understood to be in the spirit world with all others who had died. Perpetua relates :
Quote: “After a few days, while we were all praying, suddenly in the middle of the prayer I spoke, and uttered the name of Dinocrates...And I saw at once that I was entitled, and ought, to make request for him. And I began to pray much for him...At once on this very night this was shown me. I saw Dinocrates coming forth from a dark place, where there were many other dark places...and the wound which he had when he died was in his face still.... “For him then I had prayed; and there was a great gulf between me and him, so that neither of us could approach the other. There was besides in the very place where dinocrates was a font full of water, the rim of which was above the head of the child; and Dinocrates stood on tiptoe to drink. I grieved that the font should have water in it and that nevertheless he could not drink because of the height of the rim. And I woke and recognized that my brother was in trouble. But I trusted that I could relieve his trouble, and I prayed for him every day until we were transferred to the garrison prison, for we were to fight with the beasts at the garrison games on the Caesar Geta’s birthday.
It is obvious that Perpetua could see both that Dinocrates’ ability to access salvific principles was limited, she “saw at once that I (she) was entitled, and ought to make request for him.”. He was thirsty, but could not drink of the living water.
After making a completely appropriate request for Dinocrates to receive the Gospel she relates in Ch VIII that Quote:
“During the daytime, while we stayed in the stocks, this was shown me. I was that same place which I had seen before, and Dinocrates clean in body, well-clothes and refreshed; and where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and the font which I had seen before had its rim lowered to the child’s waist; and there poured water from it unceasingly; and on the rim a golden bowl full of water. And Dinocrates came forward and began to drink from it, and the bowl failed not. And when he had drunk enough of the water, be came forward being glad to play as children will. And I awoke. Then I knew that he had been released from punishment.”
Dinocrates was given the chance to drink of living water of gospel knowledge to the extent he desired. Though Dinocrates never fully accessed the font of water, he did access the part of this living water he could access by virtue of the golden bowl of water. The story of Dinocrates is lost to history at this point.
The point in offering such ancient descriptions is partly to show the close parallels of ancient Judeo-Christian descriptions with the versions claimed by restorationists. Whether taught by ancient Judeo-Christian textual witnesses, or modern witnesses that are a restoration of early witnesses, the doctrines are the same on these specific points. The LDS who read these ancient texts experience an immediate recognition of echoes of their own doctrines. Most protestants will not see much that reflects their own worldviews and the early texts will see strange to them.
The fact that the LDS who claim to be a restoration of early theology can use the earliest Judeo-Christian texts and the texts speak clearly to them means something profoundly important.
I am traveling and it is late, I will format and add colors etc tomorrow.
I hope your spiritual journey is good.
Clear
φυτωειφιω
p.s. Katzpur, I moved to SOUTHERN utah/Mesquite area. Lots of Golf for Matt if you two ever come down this direction. See you.
In chapter four, Satan adjures Hades to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.
The sons of Symeon continue to relate that :
Quote: Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “
Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify :
Quote: “All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)
Even Symeons sons were authorized by Michael and sent to teach of the resurrection of Jesus. However FIRST, they were appointed by Michael to “first to go to the Jordan and be baptized.” “There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again.” The ancient Christian pattern was that baptism was required of all who could do it and there was a reason the covenant was given BEFORE teaching or testifying. I do not think even one of a thousand LDS have ever read these early Christian histories, yet they understand exactly what is happening and why these dead who were resurrected were sent to be baptized FIRST before anything else. I’ve never seen another group that “speak” the ancient doctrinal language like the LDS. (How many others even know or understand this stuff?)
6) There are other ancient Christian texts that also describe the ancient Christian faith in relation to their dead in this spirit world.
For example, the ancient text from the diary of a Christian woman Perpetua (The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity) is the story of a new convert to Christianity. The specific doctrines that this new convert was taught and believed in are quite poignant AND, impressively, they continue to mirror the LDS doctrine that the dead may receive the gospel knowledge.
First, Perpetua relates :
Quote: “my father, furious at the word ‘Christian,’ threw himself upon me as though to pluck out my eyes but he was satisfied with annoying me;...Then I thanked the Lord for being parted for a few days from my father, and was refreshed by his absence. During those few days we were baptized, and the Holy Spirit bade me make no other petition after the holy water save for bodily endurance. A few days after we were lodged in prison; and I was in great fear, because I had never known such darkness. What a day of horror! Terrible heat, thanks to the crowds! Rough handling by the soldiers! To crown all I was tormented there by anxiety for my baby. (The Passion of Perpetual and Felicity ch three)
Perpetua, who understood the ancient doctrine that all saints were to receive revelation for themselves is asked by her brother to ask God whether they might expect deliverance or ultimately be martyred.
Quote: “Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who new myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’
Perpetua understands that she may ask God for revelation in a prayer and has every confidence that her prayer will be answered. She then made her request of God, and received a vision that confirmed they would be martyred and “...at once I told my brother, and we understood that we must suffer, and henceforward began to have no hope in this world.”
Perpetua understood also that she could make specific and limited requests for those who were dead in the same way that she could ask for specific and limited requests for the living. Perpetua had another Brother Dinocrates who had died as a child, untaught and unbaptized and, who, she understood to be in the spirit world with all others who had died. Perpetua relates :
Quote: “After a few days, while we were all praying, suddenly in the middle of the prayer I spoke, and uttered the name of Dinocrates...And I saw at once that I was entitled, and ought, to make request for him. And I began to pray much for him...At once on this very night this was shown me. I saw Dinocrates coming forth from a dark place, where there were many other dark places...and the wound which he had when he died was in his face still.... “For him then I had prayed; and there was a great gulf between me and him, so that neither of us could approach the other. There was besides in the very place where dinocrates was a font full of water, the rim of which was above the head of the child; and Dinocrates stood on tiptoe to drink. I grieved that the font should have water in it and that nevertheless he could not drink because of the height of the rim. And I woke and recognized that my brother was in trouble. But I trusted that I could relieve his trouble, and I prayed for him every day until we were transferred to the garrison prison, for we were to fight with the beasts at the garrison games on the Caesar Geta’s birthday.
It is obvious that Perpetua could see both that Dinocrates’ ability to access salvific principles was limited, she “saw at once that I (she) was entitled, and ought to make request for him.”. He was thirsty, but could not drink of the living water.
After making a completely appropriate request for Dinocrates to receive the Gospel she relates in Ch VIII that Quote:
“During the daytime, while we stayed in the stocks, this was shown me. I was that same place which I had seen before, and Dinocrates clean in body, well-clothes and refreshed; and where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and the font which I had seen before had its rim lowered to the child’s waist; and there poured water from it unceasingly; and on the rim a golden bowl full of water. And Dinocrates came forward and began to drink from it, and the bowl failed not. And when he had drunk enough of the water, be came forward being glad to play as children will. And I awoke. Then I knew that he had been released from punishment.”
Dinocrates was given the chance to drink of living water of gospel knowledge to the extent he desired. Though Dinocrates never fully accessed the font of water, he did access the part of this living water he could access by virtue of the golden bowl of water. The story of Dinocrates is lost to history at this point.
The point in offering such ancient descriptions is partly to show the close parallels of ancient Judeo-Christian descriptions with the versions claimed by restorationists. Whether taught by ancient Judeo-Christian textual witnesses, or modern witnesses that are a restoration of early witnesses, the doctrines are the same on these specific points. The LDS who read these ancient texts experience an immediate recognition of echoes of their own doctrines. Most protestants will not see much that reflects their own worldviews and the early texts will see strange to them.
The fact that the LDS who claim to be a restoration of early theology can use the earliest Judeo-Christian texts and the texts speak clearly to them means something profoundly important.
I am traveling and it is late, I will format and add colors etc tomorrow.
I hope your spiritual journey is good.
Clear
φυτωειφιω
p.s. Katzpur, I moved to SOUTHERN utah/Mesquite area. Lots of Golf for Matt if you two ever come down this direction. See you.
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