The Libertarian Delusion...

[Revoltingest]

This is not true.

Trade does not automatically equate to commercial exchanges.

This is not true. Capitalism did not spread by it's own accord, but because Western Europeans spread it to the rest of the world, often through severe repression and oppression.

That is not a good definition. American has a more expensive everything. However, we offer very little welfare compared to others, so there really isn't a "welfare state" in America.

Actually, the biggest part, such as in Norway, is fueled by socialist/common ownership means.

Corporations tell you how to look, act, and behave, N. Korea tells people who to look, act, and behave. I don't see much of a difference, except in America we like to pretend being able to watch Law & Order or CSI and live in suburbs is freedom, and that "coke or pepsi" is a real choice.

1) Oh, it's true, all right. You'll be hard pressed to find an example to the contrary.
2) Hey, Are there any countries today without private property?
3) I specifically said "commerce", not "commercial exchanges". The former is more universal.
4) The spread of capitalism was natural. The fact that there were nefarious players is only because humans suck, which is why socialism has always had such deadly consequences.
5) Norway has capitalism.
Is Norway a capitalist country
6) What corporation tells me how to look, act & behave?
Are you really claiming that we are so much like N Korea? Seriously?
These Are North Korea’s 28 State-Approved Hairstyles | TIME.com
North Korea: Male Undergraduates Must Get Same Haircut as Kim Jong Un

NEWSFEED WORLD
North Korean University Students Are Now Reportedly Required to Get the Same Haircut as Kim Jong Un\
Women will still be allowed to choose from a selection of state-sanctioned 'dos
Until now, everyone in North Korea had to choose their haircuts from a list of state-approved styles. But now, all male undergraduates in the hermit kingdom will be required to sport the same hairstyle as supreme leader Kim Jong Un, the BBC reports.

 

[LuisDantas]

We "true believers" aren't persuaded to abandon our values by such facile arguments. You shouldn't want us to.

Either you are attempting to be funny or grossly mistaken. We totally do and should want you to.

You need us to temper the economic impotency imposed by your top down government managed economy. We will always be a very useful fringe.

That is a popular myth, and a very dangerous one as well.

If you take the trouble of reading the article, you will be hard pressed to find fault in it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Either you are attempting to be funny or grossly mistaken. We totally do and should want you to.
That is a popular myth, and a very dangerous one as well.
If you take the trouble of reading the article, you will be hard pressed to find fault in it.

Oh, you are such a card.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

1) Oh, it's true, all right. You'll be hard pressed to find an example to the contrary.

It's actually very easy to list off cultures that have had very little-to-no personal possessions.

4) The spread of capitalism was natural. The fact that there were nefarious players is only because humans suck, which is why socialism has always had such deadly consequences.

Saying capitalism naturally spread is like saying democracy naturally spread. There is nothing natural about the spread or such things would be universal. It's really no different than saying it's natural for societies to "progress" into industrialized Western-like societies.

5) Norway has capitalism.

But it's the state/public ownership of oil that has made Norway wealthy for the citizens.

6) What corporation tells me how to look, act & behave?

Many corporations, possibly most, mandate certain appearances or else you cannot gain employment.

Are you really claiming that we are so much like N Korea? Seriously?

These Are North Korea’s 28 State-Approved Hairstyles | TIME.com

And here in America if you have certain hairstyles you will have a hard time finding work. Men with long hair, for example, are not typically welcomed in many corporate climates. Women who look too masculine or too feminine are not so readily welcomed either, and they are pushed down to the bottom of the list. Tattoos and piercings are largely a no. Many employers forbid swearing and smoking. A ton of employers expect you to pass a personality test, even though these tests have no scientific validity or accuracy. Many corporations dictate that you will not put certain substances into your body, even if you are on your own time. Many corporations expect their employees to be "good representatives" of the company even while you are not on company time.
So, what is really the difference? In America if you don't look or act a certain way the corporate culture that has permeated society will kick you too the bottom of the socio-economic rungs. In N. Korea if you don't look and act a certain way, the state, rather than the corporation, administers disciplinary action. Neither one always for much freedom of expression.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's actually very easy to list off cultures that have had very little-to-no personal possessions.

Saying capitalism naturally spread is like saying democracy naturally spread. There is nothing natural about the spread or such things would be universal. It's really no different than saying it's natural for societies to "progress" into industrialized Western-like societies.

But it's the state/public ownership of oil that has made Norway wealthy for the citizens.

Many corporations, possibly most, mandate certain appearances or else you cannot gain employment.

And here in America if you have certain hairstyles you will have a hard time finding work. Men with long hair, for example, are not typically welcomed in many corporate climates. Women who look too masculine or too feminine are not so readily welcomed either, and they are pushed down to the bottom of the list. Tattoos and piercings are largely a no. Many employers forbid swearing and smoking. A ton of employers expect you to pass a personality test, even though these tests have no scientific validity or accuracy. Many corporations dictate that you will not put certain substances into your body, even if you are on your own time. Many corporations expect their employees to be "good representatives" of the company even while you are not on company time.
So, what is really the difference? In America if you don't look or act a certain way the corporate culture that has permeated society will kick you too the bottom of the socio-economic rungs. In N. Korea if you don't look and act a certain way, the state, rather than the corporation, administers disciplinary action. Neither one always for much freedom of expression.

If you really do see Americastan & N Koreastan as having equivalent levels of oppression, then we are so far apart that I don't know how to proceed.

 

[metis]

Dang! I find that irrefutable.

Are you trying to refute my view of things by citing one government official's apocryphal opinion?

Greenspan & Rand are not my personal prophets.
As for economists....

Economists' theories are lame.
And even the ones with acclaim
believe things untested
cuz interests are vested.
They preach, yet they've not played the game.

If you don't respond in doggerel, then you lose before you start.
Those are the rules. (I don't make'm....I just obey'm.)

Then we literally have nothing to talk about here because you use your own definitions ("socialism" for one) and you dismiss any source that doesn't fit into your paradigm.

 

[Revoltingest]

Then we literally have nothing to talk about here because you use your own definitions ("socialism" for one) and you dismiss any source that doesn't fit into your paradigm.

I use Dictionary.com as my reference.
(Other dictionaries would work too.)
If you use a definition not to be found in dictionaries, then it would be interesting to explore that.
I invite you to offer it.

What I see is that many people confuse socialism with the welfare state.
But one can have a capitalist system, & still have a welfare state (no socialism required).

 

[metis]

I use Dictionary.com as my reference.
(Other dictionaries would work too.)
If you use a definition not to be found in dictionaries, then it would be interesting to explore that.
I invite you to offer it.

What I see is that many people confuse socialism with the welfare state.
But one can have a capitalist system, & still have a welfare state (no socialism required).

A repeat of the link that I sent you previously on another thread: Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Revoltingest]

A repeat of the link that I sent you previously on another thread: Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've read this entry before.
From it.....

There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them.

So if you eschew the stricter dictionary definitions, & don't state the one you personally use, then I don't have a good idea where you stand.

 

[metis]

I've read this entry before.
From it.....

So if you eschew the stricter dictionary definitions, & don't state the one you personally use, then I don't have a good idea where you stand.

Check what I just posted on the Anarcho-Capitalism thread, although that's my "Reader's Digest condensed version".

 

[freethinker44]

Saying capitalism naturally spread is like saying democracy naturally spread.

Also, it doesn't really matter if it's natural or not because that doesn't mean it's right just because it's natural. Because of our intelligence, we always have the option to try to rise above our nature.

 

[Revoltingest]

Check what I just posted on the Anarcho-Capitalism thread, although that's my "Reader's Digest condensed version".

It's good that you're finally coming around!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you really do see Americastan & N Koreastan as having equivalent levels of oppression, then we are so far apart that I don't know how to proceed.

I'm not saying it's America. I'm saying that it's the corporation that enforces conformity in America. Wal-Mart, Nike, Apple, and many others, for example, contribute to the oppression in China, and in America expect employees to be able to all act and look within a certain range of norms. The American state does not have any official policy on appearances for the people, but corporations do.

6) What corporation tells me how to look, act & behave?

You are one of the few who have achieved a level to be free of many of the restraints imposed on the many. And this is an inherent flaw of capitalism and that is it cannot function without the many being subjected to the few.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not saying it's America. I'm saying that it's the corporation that enforces conformity in America. Wal-Mart, Nike, Apple, and many others, for example, contribute to the oppression in China, and in America expect employees to be able to all act and look within a certain range of norms. The American state does not have any official policy on appearances for the people, but corporations do.

You are one of the few who have achieved a level to be free of many of the restraints imposed on the many. And this is an inherent flaw of capitalism and that is it cannot function without the many being subjected to the few.

I've worked for major corporations, & I've never seen the kind of oppression which N Korea has. And the degree of conformity expected varies from company to company, so we have choices.
In my company, I had a simple dress code based upon experience:
1) Tattoos of naked women had to be covered by clothing (to avoid offending hyper-sensitive social justice warrior university student tenants).
2) Wear safety glasses when needed.

Daily Life in Kim Jong Un's North Korea Is Closely Monitored and Controlled - US News
The U.S. Soldier Who Defected to North Korea — The Atlantic

 

[Revoltingest]

Note:
In an earlier post, I meant "RBS" when I posted "RBC".
RBS is the Royal Bank Of Scotland, one of the largest real estate lenders in Americastan. (They own Citizens & Charter One.) They're owned by the British government (mostly), & are very bad actors compared to our domestic lenders. So much for the benevolence of socialism, eh? I suppose that could be called the "Socialist Delusion".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

RBS is the Royal Bank Of Scotland, one of the largest real estate lenders in Americastan. (They own Citizens & Charter One.) They're owned by the British government (mostly), & are very bad actors compared to our domestic lenders. So much for the benevolence of socialism, eh? I suppose that could be called the "Socialist Delusion".

American bankers damaged the global economy a few years ago. The World Bank and IMF are worse than selling your soul to the devil.
And I still think it's funny that you can only point to oppressive state oligarchs for your examples of socialism. Had there not been such heavy propaganda against socialism and communism we would call such states what they are; tyrants.

 

[Revoltingest]

American bankers damaged the global economy a few years ago. The World Bank and IMF are worse than selling your soul to the devil.
And I still think it's funny that you can only point to oppressive state oligarchs for your examples of socialism. Had there not been such heavy propaganda against socialism and communism we would call such states what they are; tyrants.

I've already posted that I favor disbanding the IMF & World Bank.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I've already posted that I favor disbanding the IMF & World Bank.

I posted that before I saw that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's actually very easy to list off cultures that have had very little-to-no personal possessions.

Which ones? Aren't they all tribal?

 

[Revoltingest]

Which ones? Aren't they all tribal?

Some modern countries have had little in the way of personal possessions, eg, N Korea.