The Libertarian Viewpoint

[Kilgore Trout]

And don't forget about the loan companies who gave those people loans knowing there was no way in hell they were going to be able to repay them. Of course, the ones who really took advantage of it, like Goldman Sachs, just sold off the loans to others so that they would still be profitable while giving those other companies the short end of the stick.

God, I love capitalism.

Ultimately, your responsible for your own financial decisions as an individual. I saw the bubble and we decided to wait until it popped. We're looking at houses now in the 250K range that were going for 600K two years ago. We could have probably got a loan for those houses when they were their peak, but I decided to use some common sense.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Ultimately, your responsible for your own financial decisions as an individual. I saw the bubble and we decided to wait until it popped. We're looking at houses now in the 250K range that were going for 600K two years ago. We could have probably got a loan for those houses when they were their peak, but I decided to use some common sense.

Predatory loaning?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Predatory loaning?

I'm not familiar with anyone having a gun pointed at their head and being forced to take out a loan for an amount that was obviously too much for them.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I'm not familiar with anyone having a gun pointed at their head and being forced to take out a loan for an amount that was obviously too much for them.

Funny, but if they don't leave, accommodations will be met.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Funny, but if they don't leave, accommodations will be met.

Don't leave what?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Don't leave what?

The real property.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The real property.

I'm not sure how this relates to my comment. Are you saying that people who can't afford their mortgage can't live in the house they can't pay for?

 

[YmirGF]

Any thoughts?

Personally speaking, I have yet to talk to a Libertarian who didn't make me think that they had been sniffing glue. Libertarians have always struck me as being politically naive - to the extreme.

If they manage to come up with a great idea, let me know.

 

[Magic Man]

Ultimately, your responsible for your own financial decisions as an individual. I saw the bubble and we decided to wait until it popped. We're looking at houses now in the 250K range that were going for 600K two years ago. We could have probably got a loan for those houses when they were their peak, but I decided to use some common sense.

I understand, but still. I still put half the blame on the people giving the loans. Yes, you should know not to buy a $500,000 house if you make $50,000/year. However, the bank shouldn't give you the loan either. At a certain point, the bank has a responsibility, too. It's just like a doctor. A doctor should tell you clearly what the deal is so that you can make your decision. I wouldn't fault someone for making a bad medical decision based on poor advice from a doctor.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I'm not sure how this relates to my comment. Are you saying that people who can't afford their mortgage can't live in the house they can't pay for?

No. I'm saying that there are people who knowingly miss guided people and no, their was no gun pointed to their head in the transaction. However, if they don't leave the defaulted property, a gun very well be the mean of eviction. I hope not!

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Personally speaking, I have yet to talk to a Libertarian who didn't make me think that they had been sniffing glue. Libertarians have always struck me as being politically naive - to the extreme.

If they manage to come up with a great idea, let me know.

Frubals!!!

 

[Magic Man]

And, by the way, we also waited to buy our house. Our $200,000 house would have gone for probably $350,000 2-3 years ago. However, 6-7 years ago, it would have gone for $140,000. That's my biggest problem is that everyone keeps talking about how the housing market is crashing, but the prices are still considerably higher (at least in Maryland) than they were before they skyrocketed.

Also, just to add to my last post. The point is that I'm tired of the whole "Well, you're the one who did it, so you have to pay the consequences". Sure, that's generally the case. However, I guess I still think that people shouldn't take advantage of others. Giving someone a loan for $400,000 with payments that start at $1,400/month and then jump up to $2,400/month in a year or two is still cheating and deceitful. The person should know better than to take it, but the company shouldn't be trying to give it in the first place.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I understand, but still. I still put half the blame on the people giving the loans. Yes, you should know not to buy a $500,000 house if you make $50,000/year. However, the bank shouldn't give you the loan either. At a certain point, the bank has a responsibility, too. It's just like a doctor. A doctor should tell you clearly what the deal is so that you can make your decision. I wouldn't fault someone for making a bad medical decision based on poor advice from a doctor.

I understand both sides as well. Certainly, nothing good can come from giving loans to people that can't afford them, but, ultimately, I put more blame on people for their own decisions. There are definitely different aspects to the situation, but the fact that people weren't taking personal responsibility for their own finances seems to be getting swept under the rug. I understand that this is a part of our current culture - a tendency to place all blame on entities, as opposed to people, but people should be learning a lesson from this other than they were "taken advantage of."

 

[Jeremy Mason]

And, by the way, we also waited to buy our house. Our $200,000 house would have gone for probably $350,000 2-3 years ago. However, 6-7 years ago, it would have gone for $140,000. That's my biggest problem is that everyone keeps talking about how the housing market is crashing, but the prices are still considerably higher (at least in Maryland) than they were before they skyrocketed.

Also, just to add to my last post. The point is that I'm tired of the whole "Well, you're the one who did it, so you have to pay the consequences". Sure, that's generally the case. However, I guess I still think that people shouldn't take advantage of others. Giving someone a loan for $400,000 with payments that start at $1,400/month and then jump up to $2,400/month in a year or two is still cheating and deceitful. The person should know better than to take it, but the company shouldn't be trying to give it in the first place.

I sympathizes with you and find the market to be a complex thing.

Here are somethings that have made me understand the futility of the global and domestic markets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8

 

[Smoke]

Any thoughts?

I was a dues-paying member of the Libertarian Party for a while when I was in school. It sounds good at first, but then you start to realize they have some really crazy ideas, and even the ideas that sound good at first aren't practical. They don't work.

Seyorni nailed it:

Low taxes and a laissez-faire government has been tried repeatedly. It fails every time. It produces a tiny, predatory group of rich men on top; a vast, complient, insecure, underpaid, impoverished lower class; and almost no middle class to buy the goods and services the corporatists produce. It is unsustainable. Friedman is just plain wrong.

 

[Smoke]

I have seen several people on this board charicature a libertarian viewpoint in just the same way they accuse others of charicaturing socialism. Most confuse libertarians with anarchists.

While anarchists want no government or regulation of any kind, libertarians recognize the need for structure that all parties can agree upon to facilitate economic and social activity. Government acts to enforce contracts and as a legal infrastructure. Government also is tasked with certain common duties (aHa! socialism...) such as national defense (does not include nation building or policing the planet) and safety-net services.

Beyond these basics, though, the government should have little role. For example, subsidizing farmers to grow nothing or handing cash to oil companies, car companies, banks, telling consenting adults whom they can't marry, telling consumers what kind of light bulbs they have to buy and what size television is too big, .... all out of scope.

Yes, there certainly are libertarians who think even common services such as police and fire protection should be privatized, but not all are this naive, IMO. Many realize that these, schools, and some other services do make more sense at a government level.

When I was a member of the party, almost every Libertarian I talked to wanted government to consist of an army, a police force, and a court system, and that's about it. Most of them were against public schools. A lot of them were against public roads. All of them were against social welfare and any kind of economic regulation. It's simply not practical.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

most of them were against public schools. A lot of them were against public roads

lol! :d

 

[Smoke]

Also, just to add to my last post. The point is that I'm tired of the whole "Well, you're the one who did it, so you have to pay the consequences". Sure, that's generally the case. However, I guess I still think that people shouldn't take advantage of others. Giving someone a loan for $400,000 with payments that start at $1,400/month and then jump up to $2,400/month in a year or two is still cheating and deceitful. The person should know better than to take it, but the company shouldn't be trying to give it in the first place.

I agree in theory. On the other hand, we took out one of those predatory loans to buy our house. We had some credit problems and couldn't get a decent loan, and we had no money at all. (Seriously, the seller paid our closing costs and we even financed our down payment.) We worked hard on improving our credit for two years and then refinanced with a much better loan a month before our payments would have shot up. If we hadn't refinanced, though -- or if we hadn't been able to -- we would definitely have lost our house.

 

[Jackytar]

Personally speaking, I have yet to talk to a Libertarian who didn't make me think that they had been sniffing glue. Libertarians have always struck me as being politically naive - to the extreme.

If they manage to come up with a great idea, let me know.

You mean like individual liberty and spontaneous order?

Do you or the others have any reasoned argument to present? All I see are vague notions of social justice and condescending remarks.

Jackytar

 

[Jackytar]

And don't forget about the loan companies who gave those people loans knowing there was no way in hell they were going to be able to repay them. Of course, the ones who really took advantage of it, like Goldman Sachs, just sold off the loans to others so that they would still be profitable while giving those other companies the short end of the stick.

God, I love capitalism.

Yes, mball, but if we are going to follow the money trail it doesn't end at the investment banks. We have to ask why investors bought the mortgage backed securities.

Jackytar