the life after death..- are we all equal?

[MissTopSecret]

Salaam people

i was wondering about what happens to 'non-believers' according to what islam says...
i think that if the god (allah) is fair then he will take into consideration what the particular person what doing in his/her life without discriminating those who was following christianity or judaism...
i know that u might say what ive heard so many times: 'everyone has a chance to enter to islam doesn't matter where he was born or raised' and etc.

i wish i can find someone who shares my thoughts as i'm kind of divided between cultures and religions, and although at this moment i can't say i'm 'religious person', i know that something can change.. to make it more clear- i'm not from islamic country and i was raised in christian family but my life has became sort of connected to muslim faith... i feel some kind of preasure cuz i know there is someone who prays and hopes that i'll convert someday, but few aspects of islam are too distant from the way that i see this life, and one of them is what i've asked in this topic... because how comes i would ever consider entering to this religion if it says that my family and so many people of my coutry who are honestly trying to do the' right thing' are condemned to 'burn in hells fire'...

i hope u understand me and someone will reply without giving me thousands of quranic quotes, but explain me this matter more 'informally'

shukran in advance xD

 

[reve]

I wouldn't worry too much Shukran if Allah does not take them then the Christian God might, or the Hebrew God. If they say Amen at the end of their prayers then the Egyptian god Amen will look after them if they have no money. Otherwise they have a chance of enlightenment and release if they are Hindus and Buddhists. It is us agnostics who have a problem. Mine is that I dont believe any person enough to accept that someone ascended physically into heaven and has left no body behind any anyway I would want a rational explanation. If I cant do it I doubt if they can is another gripe I have with stories of miracles written many years after the events described, hence most of the Bible ones like the Red Sea parting. But all religions have this difficult to believe stuff and daren't accept it as the imagination of quite primitive tribesmen. So I go to hell. Or so they say (if you can believe them - how can they know?). But if someone has a halo I might follow him or her, especially if they raise the dead and that kind of thing and are nice to ordinary people and animals. But not because a book said they did. People could worship James Bond and Superman in a thousand years time on that basis. I hope you get a more sensible reply to a very genuine question.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

I'm not in favor of discussing God's judgments.
I know He is the most merciful and He would be fair to them, regardless of what we think, or been told.

 

[SLAMH]

Salaam people

i think that if the god (allah) is fair then he will take into consideration what the particular person what doing in his/her life without discriminating those who was following christianity or judaism...

because how comes i would ever consider entering to this religion if it says that my family and so many people of my coutry who are honestly trying to do the' right thing' are condemned to 'burn in hells fire'...

i hope u understand me and someone will reply without giving me thousands of quranic quotes, but explain me this matter more 'informally'

shukran in advance xD

I don't think discrimination is an appropriate term to be used here. Discrimination is judging a book by its cover, looking on the outside and never concern the inside, treating others based on superficial aspects and without any consider to their deeds.

For the part of the hell, as far as I know some Islamic scholars argue that hell is not being a permanent residence for non-believers, but it is more like purifying stage. It is still possible that hell might go into extinction since Qura'n doesn't state the eternity of hell. That is not to make it a fact, but to show what it could be possible.

Prophet Mohamed's uncle who was so caring about the prophet Mohamed and protected him from his antagonists is in the hell for he died a pagan and refuse to convert to Islam.

I know how it is hard for you to accept religion that if your relative and friends didn't believe in it as well, they will be entering the hell. But, if you think that is the true path and not follow it for this reason, you will neither save them nor save yourself. You can't ask them to embrace what you think it is the right path if you (yourself) don't follow it. Unlike, when you take a step then you will be more able to convince them. Still, they might be stubborn about their views and never change their mind, but at least you have done something and try all your best. At the end no one can assure how they will be judged and where they will end.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So in Islamic view a Pagan will go into hell, regardless of how good they are?

 

[SLAMH]

So in Islamic view a Pagan will go into hell, regardless of how good they are?

Generally yes, but to judge individually is not applicable. as far as I know.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Why is it that a Pagan will go into hell, and also, will it be eternal for them? What is it about Paganism that makes one worthy of hell?

 

[SLAMH]

Why is it that a Pagan will go into hell, and also, will it be eternal for them? What is it about Paganism that makes one worthy of hell?

For that they are polytheists believing in more than one God. In Islam people are supposed to believe only in one God and worship only him without any involvement to other deities.

Anyway, I just present my understanding of Islam, others may have another view.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So Polytheism is bad enough to merrit hell, even if the Polytheist spends their life helping orphans?

 

[SLAMH]

So Polytheism is bad enough to merrit hell, even if the Polytheist spends their life helping orphans?

As I said before, judging individual cases is not applicable.

I can say that Polytheism is punishable by hell in Islam. But, at the same time I can't say that because A is polytheist then he will be punished in hell.

 

[reve]

This is dangerous territory as I understand the Kaaba once contained several gods/goddesses. I suppose that the religions in the first millenium did not want to be polytheitic. Christianity insisted on 'God' being a father, son and a spirit, but maintain 3 is 1. Judaism seems to have one God but a few different names for him - Jehovah or Iahweh, El and Iam. they are all a bit different. Islam has one God - Allah. India has many but one supreme God - Vishnu. Egypt also had many with one top God Re, who was not the Creator God. If all these followers go to Hell in spite of being saints, enlightened, charitable and humble then I want to go with them. If everyone who professes Christianity or Islam goes to heaven they can have it as most are hypocrites. Job was a good man tested to the limit and proving to stay loyal to his God. Abraham could not find 10 good men in his day, not even one when it came down to it. I have nothing against religion. Most people are better off for it and have a certain discipline which makes them social. They tend to keep to their partners, not steal etc. That may be their saving grace. But some kill in the name of god and they worry the life out of me. And people believe what they are told although there is no evidence for belief that say the Red Sea parted and it is most unlikely isn't it. Why does that sort of thing not happen now? because it probably never did. the story was written down 1000 years later and what can you honestly say happened a thousand years ago nwhich left no trace. We should not believe the unbelievable but hope to experience it ourselves. That goes with Heaven and Hell. Miond you we can visit the abode of the deaed in our sleep. You probably all have. You wont see the sun there but it is bright as summer for some, others live in twilight or that is my experience. Indian religion seems to confirm the possibility. however it comes as a dream and should be treated as such, not preached to others.

 

[dreadwear]

Surely, God gets that it is not what one does, but the reason why one does it?

So regardless of how you believe, surely what you do, depending on why you do it, carries the weight.

Islam, Christianity, etc etc - a big beach ball with different colours - I see the red side, you see the blue side - I am not wrong cos I see red, you are not wrong cos you see the blue. All are the same thing, just a different viewpoint.

 

[reve]

Ultimately we are are own judge. Or at least there appears to be a part of us that will testify against us at the end. Or the Tibetans are wasting their time with their Book of the Dead. It is the weighing of our heart that will decide if we are innocent or not.

 

[reve]

The selling of religion is something quite different isnt it? They used to sell you bits of paper which wiped out your sins to date - indulgences? If you join us you will live forever is the most common line. Never a guarantee or your money back. Then when you are in, hooked, there will probably be another sect of the religion that tells you that unless you join them you wont be living forever, only that sect does. There will be a manual/ code of conduct. Invariably you have to pay them. They will sponsor charities that do good works so you can feel good about where the money goes. They get paid by the way and a place to live and pension. Some will even bury you (for a fee) which will send you straight to where you want to go, honest. And you wont mind because they are quite nice people that you wouldn't otherwise meet, probably your partner(s) and your social life. But in your heart you will be thinking about all these so called holy people who are telling you what to do, and all these devout people praying next to you who you may happen to know beat their wives at home after spending money on their girlfriends, but pray well and wear the right things. And of course can quote the manual chapter and verse. But you feel like an outcast, a rebel. God does not seem to talk directly to you, you do. I discovered it was me talking to me not God when I was a young boy in trouble. I realised this when I looked back and told the poor little chap that it would all work out (eventually after much anguish and pain), just like God told me then. No wonder I had problems believing what he told me. My old self tells me not to believe all this nonsense they tell you when they are selling you their religions. Step back, look at them and decide whether that is what you want to be. It is quite an interesting job and not bad pay if you can get in there and be one of the 'teachers'. Or be an independent (re)searcher and look everywhere. Or look inside. That appears to be a good place to start. And it doesn't cost anything. Live forever? ABSOLUTELY
(Sorry about are/our dread spelling)

 

[Gharib]

So Polytheism is bad enough to merrit hell, even if the Polytheist spends their life helping orphans?

the good that non-muslims do in this life, such as helping orphans, Allah will give them the reward for that in this life, there is no reward in the hearafter because the intention was not for the sake of Allah. in a hadith the prophet has said that actions are judged according to the intention, so if their intention is to help orphans for the sake of their god or for the sake of doing good, then Allah will reward them for that good, but only in this life. and the reward in the hearafter is better than the reward in this life because that is etternal while this life is temporary.

 

[reve]

Eselam can you or someone else here quote from the Koran where the Prophet actually has written that non Muslims will go to hell, or cannot go to Paradise. I have the Koran but did not find this. In fact the Surah - the Believers says that it is the male believers who are the heirs of Paradise. In the preceding surah just before is the only mention of muslims who He has chosen 'and laid no burdens in the observance of your faith, the faith of abraham your father. In this, as in former scriptures, he has given you the name of Muslims, so that the Apostle may testify against you, and that you yourselves may testify against your fellow-men' Koran Penguin edition London 1994 translated by N.J.Dawood with parallel authorised Arabic text). Or is this a later teaching of what it is thought the Prophet meant to write? There is always confusion over this. I thought that if you killed an innnocent you could not go to Paradise but no one tells that to the modern martyrs. Again the Surah which explains this would be helpful. I always thought that 'Islam' included those teachers who came before the Prophet (like Jesus and Abraham) who could not profess to be Muslims. Surely they did not go to hell so why should the saints of today who are not Muslim but are believers in God and perhaps also practice the faith of Abraham ?

 

[LuisDantas]

So would it be fair to say that while Islam gives clear guidelines of what might justify punishment in hell, Muslims are generally best adviced to rely on the faith of God's fair judgement over whatever guidelines or interpretations one might have?

 

[Gharib]

Eselam can you or someone else here quote from the Koran where the Prophet actually has written that non Muslims will go to hell, or cannot go to Paradise. I have the Koran but did not find this.

first of all the prophet salallahu alayhi we salam did not know how to write, he was illiterate, he never wrote he only recited what he was taught. here are the verses:

31:13 Behold, Luqman said to his son by way of instruction: "O my son! join not in worship (others) with Allah. for false worship is indeed the highest wrong-doing."

4:48 VERILY, god does not forgive the ascribing of divinity to aught beside Him, although He forgives any lesser sin unto whomever He wills: for he who ascribes divinity to aught beside god has indeed contrived an awesome sin.
​

In fact the Surah - the Believers says that it is the male believers who are the heirs of Paradise. In the preceding surah just before is the only mention of muslims who He has chosen 'and laid no burdens in the observance of your faith, the faith of abraham your father. In this, as in former scriptures, he has given you the name of Muslims, so that the Apostle may testify against you, and that you yourselves may testify against your fellow-men' Koran Penguin edition London 1994 translated by N.J.Dawood with parallel authorised Arabic text). Or is this a later teaching of what it is thought the Prophet meant to write?

you are gonna have to give me the verse and chapter number if you want me to say something regarding this.

There is always confusion over this. I thought that if you killed an innnocent you could not go to Paradise but no one tells that to the modern martyrs. Again the Surah which explains this would be helpful.

many times throughout the qur'an you will see the words, Wall-llahu Ghafurur-rahim (wallahoo ghafooroor raheem) meaning "Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful.

if one commits a sin and he repents for having done it, then Allah forgives that person, even if it was that he called someone else god and not Allah. but in the above mentioned verse that i have quoted it says that Allah does not forgive the association of partners to him, now if someone believes that some other god other than Allah is the creator of all and dies in this state without having repented and accepted Allah as the one god then Allah will not forgive such people. why should he?

I always thought that 'Islam' included those teachers who came before the Prophet (like Jesus and Abraham) who could not profess to be Muslims. Surely they did not go to hell so why should the saints of today who are not Muslim but are believers in God and perhaps also practice the faith of Abraham ?

islam does include all those who came before Muhamed (saws). the word islam means 'submission to the will of Allah' while the word 'muslim' means being 'one who has submitted to the will of Allah' (notice the god i am talking about). Abraham and Jesus and Moses peace be upon them all, were people (prophets) who had submitted to the will of Allah. now what the word for having submitted to the will of Allah in other languages is i don't know, but it means the same thing, whether you call us muslims in arabic, or submitters to the will of Allah in english makes no difference.

the saints of today have no reason to follow the faith of Abraham since Abraham was sent only to his people and not to the world, same for Jesus and same for Moses, the last prophet that was sent for all the people to follow was Muhamed (saws), so how can someone who follows the faith of Abraham and believes in the god of Abraham who is also the god of Muhamed (saws) go to paradise when he/she is not obey the commands of god which is to follow the last prophet?

please explain that to me.

i hope i have answered your questions. Allah knows best.

 

[Gharib]

So would it be fair to say that while Islam gives clear guidelines of what might justify punishment in hell, Muslims are generally best adviced to rely on the faith of God's fair judgement over whatever guidelines or interpretations one might have?

i believe that is incorrect. they both are teachings of islam but cannot be merged into what you are saying since they are different to one another, they contain different meanings.

what justifies punishment in hell is that those who will enter it will have sins outweighing their good deeds. be it a muslim or a non-muslim. every man will testify to what he has done. this initself is differet to the following.

gods fair judgement will come to resolve the issues that people had inbetween them during their lives. since it is only god who knows what we think and what we intend, so due to his perfect knowledge of everything he will resolve all the disputes that the people had with his fair and just judgement.

i hope i have answered your question Luis. Allah knows best

 

[reve]

Thanks Esalem!

The BELIEVERS Surah 23 states

'Blessed are the believers, who are humble in their prayers; who avoid profane talk, and give alms to the destitute; who restrain their carnal desires (except with wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them) and do not transgess through lusting after other women; who are true to their trusts and promises, and diligent in their prayers. These are the heirs of paradise; they shall abide for ever'

This is why I wonder whether any women are included. It suggests that it is hard to get to paradise whether you accept Allah or not.

It is written that Abraham worshipped a God called El. This is almost certainly Allah. But some think this is really Elle (She) and that this is why there was a statue of the Supreme Mother Goddess in the Kaaba at one time. In India for example there was a religion to the Mother Goddess, and all over the world, but it was later superceded by the Gods she gave birth to. I do not wish to be offensive in any way but it worries me how so many religions exclude women. The lovely man who gave my the Koran took me to Mosque with his sons and then we went to his home after prayers where his wife and daughter cooked us a wonderful meal. I have been to a Synagogue and seen there how the women are separated also. Christians have only recently allowed women to be priests but not if they are Catholic. It is puzzling isn't it when they are so obviously superior to men in almost every respect.

I think the faith of Abraham is also the faith of the Jews and Jesus, hence Christians. We use the word God but this means the one God who created the world. Surely therefore this is Islam. We do not say there is another God, just the angels and a Devil. We are all imperfect.

We should also note that the Greeks called the Nature God 'all' or Pan. I think nature is a good name for God. The Egyptians called Gods the 'Neters'. But nature is often seen as Mother Earth and female. Surely there is some truth in all the above and assuredly we all have the best 'intentions' which as you say are all that count with God.

Have a nice weekend all.