-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The Limits of Hinduism
- Thread starter raater_aloo
- Start date
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
That is the more difficult part of it. Ratiben, do not get angry, we have our short-comings. May the deities have mercy on us, the weak people. Nobody disputes that 'ahimsa' is the most important attribute (parama dharma)... so let us just practice rather than argue
ratikala
Istha gosthi
namaskaram
may I thank you kind sir for the following quotation ....
A man after my own heart :namaste
jai jai I am equaly releived , ...I have had this painfull argument here previously .
where upon I have been aacused of neglecting my deities and of being un Hindu for discontinuing the use of dairy for any preperation to be given to our Deities , ...
I will explain for your information that My choice of doing so is purely on the grounds of ahimsa , I will not offer food stuffs containing dairy or use milk for abhishekam , and totaly refuse all dairy my self .
It is true that the Deities ultimatly only need or want to receive our love therefore we can offer only water and if this is all we have , this is applicable for both the offering of Bhoga and for Abhishekam , ....it is the love and the thought in the preperation that the Deity relishes and consumes , ...
it is even permissable to make imaginary offerings if one has nothing clean and fresh to offer ...
yes using only water is perfectly premisable I have been doing this for years I bathe the Deities with only water , tilak to clean , and a little light and perfeftly pure rosewater for perfume , ....
my guru was a little worried by this descision when I first made it because I refused to take any dairy my self , ...when I explained my reasoning , he (with a little glint of a smile in his eyes) ..said '' then if you come to my ashram you will take milk ? ''....'' ji gurumaharaji '', ......then he was perfectly happy , ....so one day I must go to Gurumaharaji's ashram just to take milk from his cows and to offer it also to the Deiteies there , ...but he never stoped me from serving the Deities here , if he had any problem with my actions he would have done so .
to my mind to offer the Deities milk obtained by modern dairy farming methods , the same if not worse than it would be to offer them stolen golden jewellery ....the Deity does not need us to comit a sin for the mere display of ostentation .
may I thank you kind sir for the following quotation ....
A man after my own heart :namaste
jai jai I am equaly releived , ...I have had this painfull argument here previously .
where upon I have been aacused of neglecting my deities and of being un Hindu for discontinuing the use of dairy for any preperation to be given to our Deities , ...
I will explain for your information that My choice of doing so is purely on the grounds of ahimsa , I will not offer food stuffs containing dairy or use milk for abhishekam , and totaly refuse all dairy my self .
It is true that the Deities ultimatly only need or want to receive our love therefore we can offer only water and if this is all we have , this is applicable for both the offering of Bhoga and for Abhishekam , ....it is the love and the thought in the preperation that the Deity relishes and consumes , ...
it is even permissable to make imaginary offerings if one has nothing clean and fresh to offer ...
yes using only water is perfectly premisable I have been doing this for years I bathe the Deities with only water , tilak to clean , and a little light and perfeftly pure rosewater for perfume , ....
my guru was a little worried by this descision when I first made it because I refused to take any dairy my self , ...when I explained my reasoning , he (with a little glint of a smile in his eyes) ..said '' then if you come to my ashram you will take milk ? ''....'' ji gurumaharaji '', ......then he was perfectly happy , ....so one day I must go to Gurumaharaji's ashram just to take milk from his cows and to offer it also to the Deiteies there , ...but he never stoped me from serving the Deities here , if he had any problem with my actions he would have done so .
to my mind to offer the Deities milk obtained by modern dairy farming methods , the same if not worse than it would be to offer them stolen golden jewellery ....the Deity does not need us to comit a sin for the mere display of ostentation .
ratikala
Istha gosthi
jai jai Apu ji , and I love your coments too tooo much ...
certainly the Deities will laugh at our stupidity and our foolish ostentation ...
yes agreed a Wee little bit or even none is perfectly sufficient , ...yes it is purely symbolic , .....
but Apu ji , ....here you are doing one one most wonderfull thing and thinking of the Deities thoughts and wellbeing , .... I beleive Poeticus ji is correct you realy are a secret theist
ratikala
Istha gosthi
jai jai ,
my dear Apu ji , I am not realy ever so angry as I sometimes sound , ...but this whole idea of practice is that one can slowly make change and improve in ones sadhana , ...it is not difficult , we just have to constantly remind our selves of the goals we wish to acheive , and when we fall down then we get up and start all over again
....and of course the Deities will grant us their mercy , how ever much we move towards them they equaly recipricate by continualy and increasingly blessing us , ...but even when you are un aware of their mercy it is there , ..it is there constantly .
ratikala
Istha gosthi
namaskaram vinajaka ji
do not worry I know that siva devotees offer milk in copious quantities , ...but all I would hope and pray for is that this milk can be obtained from a pure source , ...if not how would a siva feel about offering water rather than tainted milk ?
do not worry I know that siva devotees offer milk in copious quantities , ...but all I would hope and pray for is that this milk can be obtained from a pure source , ...if not how would a siva feel about offering water rather than tainted milk ?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
And now you too, Ratiben!.. you realy are a secret theist
It varies so much from temple to temple. But I calculated here that about 1 litre in every 100 000 litres of milk produced would go to temple.
Poeticus
| abhyAvartin |
I just had a glass of milk. 2%, in fact. Used to be 1%, but now I'm bulking. Mind-is-blown.
So much this. While it may be symbolic to offer the deities things they might like, we have to remember that we are anthropomorphizing that which is not anthropomorphic. I think it's for our benefit, not the deities'. Even regarding fasting, "God does not need the fast, man does". So do deities need to be bathed, or clothed or fed? I think not... it's for mindfulness for us to do these things for others. Yes, nara seva narayana seva. But unfortunately I think, if that is the reason, like other traditions, the reasons are lost in time.
Here's a link that explains some of the ingredients and reasons for elaborate abhishekham, especially in Saiva temples based on Agamas.
How To Celebrate Annabhishekam in Siva Temples in India
How To Celebrate Annabhishekam in Siva Temples in India
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
What reasons you think are lost (I do not think any), Jai? Abhishekam and other rituals are for, as you said, for mindfulness; and 'nara seva' for the society.
Going back to what I said elsewhere, if you were to ask a typical modern Hindu teenager why certain things are done, and why they're done the way they are, I'll bet the answer would be "I dunno... we've always done that". Or you might get something more detailed like "the gods like it". But any Vedic, shastric or agamic reason would be totally alien to them. But these are my observations only.
ratikala
Istha gosthi
ratikala
Istha gosthi
I canot speak for others but most Vaisnava schools consider the Deity form to be an embodiment of the Deity therefore we ascribe the characteristics of the divine lila that each Deity form represents , in other words the Deity of Srinath ji is none other than Krsna himself at the age of seven when he lifted Goverdhan hill , ....he later appeared on Goverdhan to accept the serva of the Brajvasis and to continue his Goverdhan Lila , ... our RadhaKrsna Deities are enjoying their own lila in each deity form they inhabit , ...when we invite the deity to reside in the Deity form it for them to continue their lila and so that we may assist in their enjoyment , we canot invite the deity to reside in our home or temple without treating them as the most honoured guest , so in that respect the Deity does need to be clothed , fed and served , ...there is a golden rule which says that what ever level of service is given that level must be maitained , ..it is for this reason that home serva is very different from temple serva , ...
it is also important to note that these traditions are not lost in time .
when one takes on temple serva one learns a very strict code of respectfull conduct , it is handed down from Pujari to Pujari , as is the understanding of the needs and likes of the Deity . it is also regarded that one is building a personal relationship with ones residing Deity , ones service is a reciprical display of affection and gratitude , it is more than a training in mindfullness alone , the Deity bestows the most undescribably personal blessing on those who form such relationships through serva , ...thus the true mind of devotional attatchment is made between the devotee and the Deity .
this does not stop the devotee from striking a correct ballance between Deity Serva , and the service of mankind for he should serva both symultaniously , and in this case I agree wholeheartedly that the Deity does not need excessive serva , in that he does not require to be bathed in copious amounts of milk and honey , as in this case water will do equaly nicely as it is the Quality of the serva that realy matters . the temple pujari must however continue his serva as this is also valid service to mankind , ...so many times Vinajaka ji has spoken of the powerfull atmosphere present in some temples , this energy comes from the residing Deity and the devotion and serva that he has enjoyed , this energy is the Darshan of the lord which bestows the higest blessing upon all who attend to receive it . some might say that this is the higest service to mankind as it goes beyond and above material wellbeing , ....this does not mean however that we should neglect to serve our own comunities in providing also for their material needs , ...but what is most important is that this work is done jointly by a devotee comunity .
The Guru renounces all material things even to the extent of having no fixed abode , he will go where he is most needed , his gift to share are the blessings of instruction .
each devotee under him takes on a specific role ultimately each equaly serves the comunity despite the fact that one may take up Deity serva and another might take up some form of charitable comunity work , it is like a family in which each has his duty to perform for the benifit equaly of self and others .
as rgards to fasting , yes we fast , but the deity serva remains the same , we still offer food stuffs to the Deity even when we are fasting , the deity does not need to practice austerities , as the Deity needs no purification . fasting you could say has more to do with our personal practice of mindfullness , as it is when fasting that we have more time to focus on god rather than on mundane activities .
personaly i do not serve for my own benifit , allthough the benifits and blessings have been numerous , I serve out of love , I think you will find that most Pujaris would say the same ?
I didn't say the traditions are lost in time, I said the reasons for the traditions are very often lost in time. I do not believe the average Hindu knows why certain things are done the way they are.
ratikala
Istha gosthi
namaskaram jai ji
I beg your pardon for not making it clearer , ...I was refering equaly to the reasonsing behind traditions and their metodology ....
which are when a pujari is taking training taught along side oneanother .
.... this is true they do not ,
it is for this reason that it is said that we should '' enquire submissively ''....then the guru will tell you that the reasons behind traditions are not lost , but simply rest in the hands of those who have dedicated their lives to serva and who have learnt both method and reason , ...this understanding does not come easily it is imparted by the mercy of the guru , and comes through deciplic sucession . it is very privilaged and treasured Knowledge in that it takes many years before one is deemed worthy to be taught some things , as unfortunatly they would not be understood ...guru only gives when he knows that the time is right .
I beg your pardon for not making it clearer , ...I was refering equaly to the reasonsing behind traditions and their metodology ....
which are when a pujari is taking training taught along side oneanother .
.... this is true they do not ,
it is for this reason that it is said that we should '' enquire submissively ''....then the guru will tell you that the reasons behind traditions are not lost , but simply rest in the hands of those who have dedicated their lives to serva and who have learnt both method and reason , ...this understanding does not come easily it is imparted by the mercy of the guru , and comes through deciplic sucession . it is very privilaged and treasured Knowledge in that it takes many years before one is deemed worthy to be taught some things , as unfortunatly they would not be understood ...guru only gives when he knows that the time is right .
Fireside_Hindu
Jai Lakshmi Maa
I once had a friend who I brought to temple comment on what she perceived as a waste of milk when we watched the abhishekam. I think one has to simply acknowledge that people are approaching these things from difference world views and that their opinion is valid - for them - and that's okay. Their perspective does not invalidate an entire tradition.
Milk is something that while very important for many people in combination with other foods, is not sustaining on it's own, so if the argument is that abhisheks waste milk that could go to people who need it - I think there are a dozen other food items they probably need more.
If the argument is that using that much milk creates unnecessary demand for milk from cows that are mistreated I think it's important to note that more and more temples in the US are sourcing their milk from more humane places. Some even have their own herds. The system isn't perfect, but that doesn't mean you through out the baby with the bathwater.
A lot of milk is brought by devotees, and in that case there's no controlling it unless you want to specifically ban non-organic/free range milk at your temple.
If we want to address social, economical, or scriptural issue within Hinduism I can think of a lot more that need to be addressed before the use of milk in rituals. It's like rushing to remove a tick from a dog that is starving. Treat the most severe and pressing problem first or you risk killing the dog anyway.
:camp:
Milk is something that while very important for many people in combination with other foods, is not sustaining on it's own, so if the argument is that abhisheks waste milk that could go to people who need it - I think there are a dozen other food items they probably need more.
If the argument is that using that much milk creates unnecessary demand for milk from cows that are mistreated I think it's important to note that more and more temples in the US are sourcing their milk from more humane places. Some even have their own herds. The system isn't perfect, but that doesn't mean you through out the baby with the bathwater.
A lot of milk is brought by devotees, and in that case there's no controlling it unless you want to specifically ban non-organic/free range milk at your temple.
If we want to address social, economical, or scriptural issue within Hinduism I can think of a lot more that need to be addressed before the use of milk in rituals. It's like rushing to remove a tick from a dog that is starving. Treat the most severe and pressing problem first or you risk killing the dog anyway.
:camp:
