PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
I see your point. Apologies.
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The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
- Start date
- Status
I see your point. Apologies.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
@Crosstian, if there is anything that really, really, really annoys me about some posters, it's when they claim that I don't know my own religion. I know my religion backwards and forwards and your attempts to prove that I don't will never, ever succeed. Perhaps we can find something to actually agree on at some point in the future. Meanwhile, though, I'm not going to sit here and listen to you try to prove that you know more about my religion than I do. There is nowhere in any of the material you've obvious cut and pasted from an LDS site (without proving a source, by the way) that says the Sabbath must be observed on what we now call "Saturday." We observe a day of rest and worship every seventh day. That is what we believe God wants. Of course, you have every right to interpret the commandment differently than we do.
Crosstian
Baring the Cross
I presented the linked evidence from official LDS sources, which you obviously haven't ever seen before, thus the reaction. If you choose to ignore what your own sources say, that is your prerogative. It was given you, however. If it were me, I would choose to find the truth of the matter, but what you do, is up to you, and where truth matters to you. Thank you.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Of course I've seen this material before. For crying out loud, what do you take me for? And do you believe the LDS Church leadership is also in the dark on this topic. What you're doing is telling me that you are better qualified to interpret LDS sources than the LDS Church itself is. Does that even sound reasonable to you? You believe you have the truth; that's great. May it serve you well. It would be foolish for anyone to be part of a church they believed to be teaching false doctrine.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Arr nope! Revelation 1:10 from God's Word is in reference to "THE LORDS DAY"...
REVELATION 1:10 [10], I was in the Spirit on the "LORDS DAY", and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.
Many try to claim this is a reference to "SUNDAY worship" yet there is no scripture to support this man made teaching and tradition that has led many to break God's 4th commandment. JESUS says all those who follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God are not following God *Matthew 15:3-9.
The question we should be asking ourselves therefore is who do we believe and follow; God or man?
Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.
Gods sheep hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
So answer me please, when the Apostolic Church treated Sunday as the new
Sabbath (even with Jesus Himself appearing on that day three times) would
YOU have joined this church?
Crosstian
Baring the Cross
Frankly? Yes. I truly believe that they are confused. They are speaking two things, not one. It is a self-contradiction. I do not mean in any way to be harsh. I am simply responding to what I read from their sources. I have considered their sources. I was actually surprised when I dug into the matter. I personally think, from experience, that most LDS do not have any idea about those quotations, even if you do (I will accept what you say in regards having seen them before).
Crosstian
Baring the Cross
Actually, no we don't, and neither do you, nor any have such "every right to interpret the commandment". God is the one who interprets, not men:
Gen 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
Dan 2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
Dan 2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
Dan 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
Luk_24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
Dan 2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
Dan 2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
Dan 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
Luk_24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Since none of them even mention a specific day (Saturday vs. Sunday), what you believe they ought to be saying is beside the point. We believe in keeping the Sabbath Day holy -- much more so, in fact, than do most Christians. You won't find practicing Latter-day Saints at movies, sporting events, out doing yard work, or at the mall on the day we hold to be the Sabbath. You'll find us in church and spending time with our families doing spiritually uplifting activities. I realize you believe that we are breaking the Sabbath by observing it on Sunday. We believe that it is of little concern to God which day of the week they chose to set aside as a day of worship and rest. The important thing is that we do so every seventh day and not just on whatever day happens to be convenient during any given week.
As I stated previously, we have no idea exactly how many days have passed since the Creation took place. Nobody does, not even the Seventh-Day Adventists. Furthermore, Latter-day Saints accept the account of the Creation as recorded in Genesis to as a non-literal account of how the Creation took place. We don't believe it all happened during one single week comprised of seven 24-hour days. Many other Christians also believe, like us, that the Creation took much, much longer than a single week. We believe that God was at the helm every split second of every moment of His Creation and that nothing took place that He had not designed to take place. If you see that as heresy, so be it. But as far as I can see, no one who does not believe in a literal seven-day Creation would even feel the need to try to pin the conclusion of the Creation as an event down to a Friday night at 11:59 P.M., with the following 24 hours as being a day of rest for God.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
That's nice-sounding, but not a very practical approach. All you're actually saying is that the Seventh-Day Adventists are following God's commandments as they are 100% certain He wants them to be interpreted. Like it or not, there are simply many possible interpretations of hundreds of verses in the Bible. You can dismiss everybody else's as false, if you'd like, but one fact remains: People of pretty much every denomination out there interpret the scriptures the way they believe they should be interpreted.
As one example, you may or may not know that Roman Catholics believe in the doctrine of Transubstantiation, which holds that during the Eucharist, the bread and wine are literally changed into Christ's body and blood. I don't believe that, and you probably don't either. But I can assure you that any truly knowledgeable Catholic can point to the specific passages in the Bible that they use to support their doctrine. They can actually make a very good case for their belief, even though most other denominations believe that they have incorrectly interpreted scripture.
I sincerely believe that God wants us to understand the scriptures correctly. I also sincerely believe, though, that the condition of our hearts is even more important to Him. When each of us stands before Him to be judged, I believe He's going to be a whole lot more concerned about how well we treated our fellow men and how devout we were in showing Him how much we love Him than He is with whether we went to church on Saturday or Sunday.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Sadly your post and claims have no truth in them and are only a distraction to the OP and the questions being asked....
Where is the scripture that says "SUNDAY" is "THE LORDS DAY"?
If there is no scripture who should we believe and follow; JESUS or the teachings and tradtions of men that break the commandments of God that JESUS warns us against?
Who do you believe and follow and why?
Crosstian
Baring the Cross
As an ex-Roman Catholic (myself, born and raised for many years, even was briefly with a specialized ministry dealing with saints and miracles, as EWTN called 'expert in their field'), I can speak to what Romanism actually teaches officially, and show them their error, and have done so on numerous occasions (you will find they have no real answer from scripture):
Feel free to read through (I have posted it in many places on the net, including CAF (which they delete on numerous occasions)):
Transubstantiation Unsubstantiated Substantially :P
Joh_6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
John 6 isn't alone, as the disciples, pharisees, etc all misunderstood Jesus, when He spoke of things spiritual, they being carnal, constantly thought of the natural in their error.
John 1:19-25 (John the Baptist as Elijah)
John 2:19-22 (Temple of His body)
John 3:1-21 (Nicodemus, Born Again)
John 4:7-15 (Woman a the Well, Water)
John 4:31-34 (Meat to Eat, Water to Drink)
John 5:6-7 (Will you be made whole, Pool)
John 6:50-52 (Eat my Flesh, Word)
John 7:38-39 (Water out of the belly, Spirit)
Matthew 16:5-12 (Leaven, Bread)
The Bible is self-contained. God explained God therein. Even as the scripture was given by the Holy Ghost/Spirit, it is the Holy Ghost Spirit that leads into all truth, and "thy word is truth".John 2:19-22 (Temple of His body)
John 3:1-21 (Nicodemus, Born Again)
John 4:7-15 (Woman a the Well, Water)
John 4:31-34 (Meat to Eat, Water to Drink)
John 5:6-7 (Will you be made whole, Pool)
John 6:50-52 (Eat my Flesh, Word)
John 7:38-39 (Water out of the belly, Spirit)
Matthew 16:5-12 (Leaven, Bread)
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Q. WHAT DAY IS THE "LORD'S DAY" ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE?
A. MATTHEW 12:8 [8], For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Which day is the Lord's Day? THE SABBATH DAY (MATTHEW 12:8; MARK 2:27-28)
God's WORD says that the SABBATH DAY IS THE LORD'S DAY!
There is NO scripture that says Sunday or the FIRST DAY of the week is the Lords Day. God's Word says the Lord's day is the Sabbath day. This is the day God rested on, he set apart and made a Holy day at the completion of the creation week and made a memorial for all mankind (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11). Jesus is the God of creation and he is the Lord of the Sabbath day (Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:27-28)
Can you show from the scriptures alone that Sunday is "THE LORDS DAY" if not why not? If we cannot are we following man made teachings that break the commandments of God that JESUS warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9?
May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Lord's day in Rev 1:10 is when God showed the Revelation of Jesus Christ to John.
If we examine closely its the Lord's day, no Lord's days....
The Bible mentions only ONE DAY and people think its A MILLION DAYS.
Zephaniah 1:2-18 New International Version (NIV)
“I will sweep away everything
from the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord.
“I will sweep away both man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea—
and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.”
“When I destroy all mankind
on the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord,
“I will stretch out my hand against Judah
and against all who live in Jerusalem.
I will destroy every remnant of Baal worship in this place,
the very names of the idolatrous priests—
those who bow down on the roofs
to worship the starry host,
those who bow down and swear by the Lord
and who also swear by Molek,
those who turn back from following the Lord
and neither seek the Lord nor inquire of him.”
Be silent before the Sovereign Lord,
for the day of the Lord is near.
The Lord has prepared a sacrifice;
he has consecrated those he has invited.
“On the day of the Lord’s sacrifice
I will punish the officials
and the king’s sons
and all those clad
in foreign clothes.
On that day I will punish
all who avoid stepping on the threshold,
who fill the temple of their gods
with violence and deceit.
“On that day,”
declares the Lord,
“a cry will go up from the Fish Gate,
wailing from the New Quarter,
and a loud crash from the hills.
Wail, you who live in the market district;
all your merchants will be wiped out,
all who trade with silver will be destroyed.
At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps
and punish those who are complacent,
who are like wine left on its dregs,
who think, ‘The Lord will do nothing,
either good or bad.’
Their wealth will be plundered,
their houses demolished.
Though they build houses,
they will not live in them;
though they plant vineyards,
they will not drink the wine.”
The great day of the Lord is near—
near and coming quickly.
The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter;
the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry.
That day will be a day of wrath—
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of trouble and ruin,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness—
a day of trumpet and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the corner towers.
“I will bring such distress on all people
that they will grope about like those who are blind,
because they have sinned against the Lord.
Their blood will be poured out like dust
and their entrails like dung.
Neither their silver nor their gold
will be able to save them
on the day of the Lord’s wrath.”
In the fire of his jealousy
the whole earth will be consumed,
for he will make a sudden end
of all who live on the earth.
Crosstian
Baring the Cross
Yes, I do, and I have personally taken the time to do a study on it:
Age of the Earth/Mankind
7,000 Year Plan of Redemption, as seen in Genesis 1 Powerpoint
7,000 Year historical quotes (even Joseph Smith taught this, look it up)
Even Joseph Smith said:
"... Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was asealed on the back with seven seals?
A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, bmysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this cearth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence. ..." - Doctrine and Covenants, 77:6 - Doctrine and Covenants 77
A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, bmysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this cearth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence. ..." - Doctrine and Covenants, 77:6 - Doctrine and Covenants 77
It is amazing how certain attempt to make this billions of years ... when it clearly does not say that at all.
The 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD in Genesis, for it culminates the previous 6 work days of God. Thus how can persons attempt to replace 1 for 7, and 7 for 1, when all the sources speak of the 7th.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Nope your mixing up "THE DAY OF THE LORD" with "THE LORDS DAY" as in the LORDS ownership of the day.
Many try and interpret this as "Sunday". Please read the OP. Revelation 1:10 says JOHN was in the Spirit on "THE LORDS DAY" the context is...
REVELATION 1:9-19
[9], I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
[10], I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
[11], Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What you see, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.
[12], And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
[13], And in the middle of the seven candlesticks one like to the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the breasts with a golden girdle.
[14], His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[15], And his feet like to fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
[16], And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shines in his strength.
[17], And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand on me, saying to me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[18], I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
[19], Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
The context shows that JOHN is in the Spirit of "THE LORDS DAY" with JESUS in the Heavenly Sanctuary not the second coming of "THE DAY OF THE LORD".
CONTEXT matters and you have provided none and seek to go outside the book of Revelation to try and find your meanings which the book and scripture passage is not referring to.
Hope this helps.
Please address the OP.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
You have only been provided God's Word and God's Word is not mine but God's. I do not judge you. If you feel condemned by the scriptures shared with you. Harden not your heart as in the day in the wilderness, but give thanks to God and hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him. God's Sheep haer God's Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear do not follow *John 10:1-10; John 10:26-27. All have a duty of LOVE to their fellow man to share God's Word. If I did not love you as my sister in Christ I would not point you to the Word of God. Who are you following; God's Word or the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God? The question we must all ask ourselves as we examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith or not is do we know JESUS? --- *1 John 2:3-4. JESUS says you shall know them by their fruits. He that says I know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him...
May you receive God's Word and be blessed.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
hmm What brother? God's Word says that creation was made in six days with God's Sabbath being made for mankind *Mark 2:27 on "the seventh day" of the week. There is no scripture in GENESIS 1 and GENESIS 2 that the creation week was thousands of years.
Before the written Word of God there was the Spoken Word of God. All of God's people had God's laws well before the Exodus...
Before the written Word of God there was the Spoken Word of God given to mankind and those who believed and followed God's Word *Hebrews 11; Romans 10:17. All of God's 10 Commandments were kept before Sinai as were offerings for remission of sin.
GENESIS 26:5 Because that Abraham OBEYED MY VOICE, and KEPT MY CHARGE, MAY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES AND MY LAWS תּורה תּרה
God said of Abraham that ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE [the Spoken Word] AND KEPT MY CHARGE, MY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES AND MY LAWS. תּורה תּרה
The HEBREW word used for laws תּורה תּרה is TORAH. So, it is very clear that the SPOKEN WORD of GOD included God’s TORAH. The TORAH includes God's LAWS of the OLD COVENANT from God's ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and the SHADOW laws for remission of sin (burn't offerings) if God's LAW was broken.
If they had no law BEFORE the written WORD of GOD then they would have no knowledge of what sin is. If they did not know what sin was there would have been no need of burnt offerings.
Yet here we also see in GENESIS 22:2-7 that it was a regular practice for Abraham and his family to offer burnt offerings. So before Mt Sinai God’s people had the SPOKEN Word of God after slavery to the Egyptians they received the WRITTEN Word of God but through all this time God’s people had a knowledge of what sin was and what to do if sin was committed. Because they knew God's laws and followed them by faith.
Jacob knew about sin (breaking God's Commandments) BEFORE Mt Sinia when he complained to Laben when he left with his daughters *GENESIS 31:36.
When Potiphar’s wife came to Joseph with the aim of committing adultery with him, Joseph knew it was sin and protested saying how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? *GENESIS 39:9.
In regards to the Sabbath the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens. [Exodus 5:4] And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now [are] many, and ye make them rest [Shabath, same word used in Genesis 2:2-3, meaning: to cease, or keep Sabbath] from their burdens. [Exodus 5:5] And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee. [Exodus 15:26]
Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no. [Exodus 16:4]
GOD already has a LAW, and it is not called the “Hebrews Law”, but GOD calls it “MY LAW”
And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. [Exodus 16:23] And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day [is] a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. [Exodus 16:25] Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, [which is] the sabbath [this does not say that the 7th day now becomes the Sabbath, but it says that the 7th day is the Sabbath already, as it always had been], in it there shall be none. [Exodus 16:26] And it came to pass, [that] there went out [some] of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. [Exodus 16:27] And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? [Exodus 16:28] See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. [Exodus 16:29]
So the people rested on the seventh day. [Exodus 16:30] [Exodus 16 takes place 2 weeks before Mt. Sinai. As shown above God's people before the written Word of God had the spoken Word of God and God's people had God's laws before and the Sabbath from creation after the fall.
As shown earlier the Sabbath was made at creation before sin for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27.
As posted earlier, Your claims here are in error. Sunday worship is a man made teaching and tradition that has lead many to break God's 4th commandments that is not biblical.
There is not a single scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday or the first day of the week as a Holy day.
The question we should ask oursevles is who are we following; God or men?
God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *John 10:26-27
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
The "Lord" here is Jesus.
His day was His resurrection.
This is why the Apostles observed Sunday as their Sabbath.
This is why the Lord appeared to them, each time, on the Sunday.
as if to confirm it this day.
And it's why Christians observed Sunday as their new Sabbath -
attested by historians.
So Paul observed Sunday as the Sabbath, so too did Peter, so
too did all the Apostles. And Jesus met with them on the Sunday.
That's good enough for me.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
These are your words above than we have God's Word and the very words of JESUS that says that the Sabbath was made for all mankind in *MARK 2:27. There was no JEWS and no Sin when Gods Sabbath was created *Genesis 2:1-3 and according to JESUS the Sabbath was made for all mankind *Mark 2:27. So the application to the Jews only is a false one.
God's 4th commandment says..
EXODUS 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY [Made Holy at creation GENESIS 2:3]. [9], Six days shall you labor, and do all your work: [10], But THE SEVENTH DAY [ Genesis 2:1-3] IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD : in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, NOR THE FOREIGNER THAT IS WITHIN YOUR GATES: [WHY?] [11], FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY; WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY. [Refering to GENESIS 2:1-3]
The Hebrew word used here is גּר גּיר; gêr gêyr From H1481; properly a guest ; by implication a foreigner: - alien, sojourner, stranger.
In the new covenant there are no more Jew and gentiles believers. All are one in Christ and gentiles believers are now grafted in to Gods Israel who are all those who believe and follow Gods Word. If you are not a part of God's Israel than you have no part in the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12
Hope this helps
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