So simple - i have entered into rest.
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"THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
- Start date
There is a difference between "proving it" and "getting the spirit of revelation and knowledge".
We have had relentless efforts of trying to "prove that Jesus rose from the grave" to atheists and they still will argue that one hasn't proven it.
Adam didn't have a "Sabbath day". He was connected to God as his rest. The last Adam brought us back into "God's rest". He is the fulfillment of the year of jubilee where after 7 times of 7 years of land rest, there was the "8th" year of the last set of 7 years - the 50th year that was another year of rest. It hasn't been recorded that Israel ever did that.
Jesus fulfills that 50th or eternal rest where our debts are cancelled and we come back into what was ours from the beginning... the eternal rest that Adam enjoyed before he sinned. (Leviticus) Back to God's Garden with full authority as we are in Jesus Christ, the Father is in Jesus and Jesus in us.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Yet you have done neither. Does that not worry you? It should. (see Hebrews 10:26-31)
Not relevant we both agree that the scriptures are the standard of what is true and what is not true.
Where does it say that Adam did not have a Sabbath? According to the words of Jesus in Mark 2:27 God made the Sabbath for mankind. Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day of the creation week (Genesis 1:26-31). God blessed the seventh day Sabbath and made it a holy day of rest for all mankind on the seventh day of the creation week. The rest of your post is irrelevant. Why? There is no scripture anywhere in the bible that defines Jesus as a Sabbath. Gods Sabbath commandment of Gods 10 commandments which is Gods Word defined the creation Sabbath as the "seventh day" in Exodus 20:10 where it says "10, But THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD. Your making excuses for sin which is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments and not believing Gods Word (James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; Romans 14:23). This is also what Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 warns us against doing.
Nonsense. Kenny you will need to prove your assertions here as they only demonstrate you do not understand the scriptures. There is no scripture that demonstrates anything you have said above. For example, did you know there are many different kinds of Sabbaths in the old covenant that are not the same as Gods creation Sabbath in the 10 commandments? For your assertion to be true and its application to Gods Sabbath commandment from the 10 commandments you would need to prove that the creation seventh day weekly Sabbath in the 10 commandments is a shadow law pointing to things to come. You cannot do this with Gods Sabbath commandment of the 10 commandments because it is a memorial meaning it points backward as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as our creator. Look at Exodus 20:8 "REMEMBER (memorial pointing backward not forward) THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY. If you are interested in learning about the ceremonial sabbaths happy to discuss these with you. However these are not the same as Gods creation Sabbath and cannot be compared because their purposes were all different. Sorry Kenny but there is no wiggle room for you here.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
According to Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 no one enters into Gods Sabbath rest if they live their lives not believing Gods Word and breaking Gods commandments. This is the context of what Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 is talking about as proven in the scripture context you disregard as demonstrated in post # 2907; and post # 2908 linked that you refuse to respond to.
Take Care.
So... you have implemented the same results and implemented every excuse as atheists have and even bypassed the year of Jubilee. Where does the Bible say that Jesus is the scapegoat?
Where does it say that Adam had a Sabbath? Or did God rest on the Sabbath day and invited Adam to be part of the Garden of rest! Are you saying that the Sabbath doesn't represent Jesus in any way as Lord of the Sabbath? Are you saying that the prophets and the Psalms didn't speak of Jesus? Are you saying that the festivals don't point to Jesus?
Let's be honest here... you are simply convinced you are right (as I believe also) and nothing that is said will move you (which I am find with) and don't change the black and white meaning of "don't judge in reference to the holy days and the Sabbaths"! )
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The Genesis account speaks of the 7th day of creation. So what did God do on that 7th day? Please look at Genesis 2:2,3 and tell
Kenny, I understand your comment, and perhaps we can discuss that at greater length later. Because I'd have to refer to the scriptures about the Sabbath rest for those entering into it.
I was speaking about the difference, if @3rdAngel cares to denote it, between the 7th Day of creation and the weekly sabbath for the Israelites as commanded for them to follow. I would enjoy your comment about your thoughts regarding the difference between the weekly sabbath command for the Israelites and that of the 7th day of creation account in Genesis. Thank you. Remember -- the 7th day in the creation account is not said to have ended, the other 6 days have ended. The 7th creative day is not said to have ended. I will hopefully be able to get into this later. Thanks for your thoughts.
P.S. @3rdAngel -- do you see a difference between the 7th day of creation and the weekly sabbath day for the Israelites as commanded by Moses to observe? If not, let me know and then as Kenny says, you go your way and I'll follow Jesus. OK? Because you brought out some stuff about daylight and nighttime as if they are not in a considered day. Maybe we're speaking 2 different languages though. Take care.
Let me help you!Hebrews 4:3
King James Version
3 For we which have believed DO ENTER INTO RESTObviously that doesn't include you
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
No thanks Kenny your pulling scripture out of context again to promote your teachings of lawlessness. According to the context you leave out of Hebrews 3:8-19 to Hebrews 4:1-11 those who continue in sin and unbelief do not enter into Gods seventh day Sabbath rest. Think your argument through. If that is what the context says how can you enter into Gods seventh day Sabbath rest if you do not believe and obey what Gods Word says and break Gods Sabbath commandment? Your posts only tell me you do not know the scriptures and you are deceiving yourself if you think you can enter into Gods rest by not believing and obeying Gods Word. Read Hebrews 3:8-19 to Hebrews 4:1-11. Its a warning to all those who do not believe and obey Gods Word that they will not enter into Gods rest. The full context of Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 that you refuse to address and discuss here and here linked proved this Kenny. Does this not worry you? It should (see Hebrews 10:26-31). Your salvation is at stake.Let me help you! Hebrews 4:3 King James Version 3 For we which have believed DO ENTER INTO REST Obviously that doesn't include you
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yes... it is hard to simply take it in black and white especially when it specifically proved you wrong. You have a righteousness based on your works denying the work of the cross. A different gospel.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So then at the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, (1) do you believe each CREATIVE day in the Genesis account was 24 hours each? Whatcha think?
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Kenny you will need to prove your assertions here as they only demonstrate you do not understand the scriptures. There is no scripture that demonstrates anything you have said above. For example, did you know there are many different kinds of Sabbaths in the old covenant that are not the same as Gods creation Sabbath in the 10 commandments? For your assertion to be true and its application to Gods Sabbath commandment from the 10 commandments you would need to prove that the creation seventh day weekly Sabbath in the 10 commandments is a shadow law pointing to things to come. You cannot do this with Gods Sabbath commandment of the 10 commandments because it is a memorial meaning it points backward as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as our creator. Look at Exodus 20:8 "REMEMBER (memorial pointing backward not forward) THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY. If you are interested in learning about the ceremonial sabbaths happy to discuss these with you. However these are not the same as Gods creation Sabbath and cannot be compared because their purposes were all different. Sorry Kenny but there is no wiggle room for you here.
Where does it say that Adam did not have a Sabbath? According to the words of Jesus in Mark 2:27 God made the Sabbath for mankind. Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day of the creation week (Genesis 1:26-31). God blessed the seventh day Sabbath and made it a holy day of rest for all mankind on the seventh day of the creation week. The rest of your post is irrelevant. Why? There is no scripture anywhere in the bible that defines Jesus as a Sabbath. Gods Sabbath commandment of Gods 10 commandments which is Gods Word defined the creation Sabbath as the "seventh day" in Exodus 20:10 where it says "10, But THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD. Your making excuses for sin which is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments and not believing Gods Word (James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; Romans 14:23). This is also what Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 warns us against doing.
Lets be honest Kenny. You do not know the old testament scriptures and how they relate to the new testament scriptures. You did not even know that there are many different types of sabbaths in the old covenant that are not the same as Gods Sabbath of the 10 commandments. You have no scriptures to support your teachings of lawlessness. When I share the scripture contexts with you then you will simply ignore these posts and scriptures that are in disagreement with you because it proves you are simply wrong. Your twisting scripture out of its context to your own destruction to justify sin and unbelief which is the very thing God is trying to warn us against in the scriptures (Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4). As posted earlier Colossians 2:16 is talking about judging others in regards to meat and drink offerings, new moons and the the ceremonial sabbaths (plural) in the annual feast days. Its not talking about Gods weekly Sabbath of the 10 commandments. (detailed scripture evidence already provided on Colossians 2:16 in post # 23; post # 25; post # 26 linked.
Take Care.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Sadly Kenny it is you that is promoting a different gospel to the one that is in the bible. Jesus and the Apostles did not promote teachings of lawlessness. Your gospel is one of promoting unbelief and sin when faith and repentance of sin are requirements to receiving Gods forgiveness of sin and eternal life. Jesus came to save us from our sins. Jesus did not die for our sins so that we are now free to continue practicing sin. If we continue in sin and unbelief we will be lost in our sins and unbelief and lose Gods gift of grace and eternal life. According to the context you leave out those who continue in sin and unbelief do not enter into Gods seventh day Sabbath rest. Neither do they receive everlasting life (see Hebrews 10:26-31)
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That is a good question... IMV, a theological question where you can have different camps because there just isn't enough information.
1) God created all things in His light - timelessness - 24 hours could mean much more than our 24 hours since night and day (sun and moon) was created after.
2) God created in our day (24 hours) with the appearance of it being older. Examples:
- Jesus told the man to stretch for his hand and his arm grew. Naturally speaking, if we were to look at it, it was a lifetime of growth yet it happened in milliseconds. Appeared to have grown all his life (if we were to look at it without prior knowledge of the condition of his arm) - yet it was instantaneous.
- God created Adam... appeared to be full grown yet it was a moment of time.
Please understand that I'm really not not trying to evade the question but there just isn't enough hard data to go either way. We end up discussing time lapse instead of the macro issue of "God Created" it all.
Did I explain clearly?
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Hi there. I think I partly answered this back in post # 2809 linked. Keeping in mind 24 hours is a modern term for time yes of course. Why? The making of the weekly Sabbath proves that the creation days were literal days making up the 7 day week.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Day in general means -- a set period of time, from beginning to end. The weekly sabbath command given to the Jews was different than God's seventh day of creation. Man did not create himself. God did on the sixth day. And yes, He rested on the seventh day.
I haven't read all your posts about this, sorry, so I will not ask you much until I understand your response regarding the seventh day and the next question. Adam was created on the 6th day, along with land animals, do we agree with that?
To review: Genesis 1:26-31:
Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”+ 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”
29 Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you. 30 And to every wild animal of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving on the earth in which there is life, I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it was so.
31 After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day."
I'm sure we agree it was the sixth day and that had an evening and morning on which God created man and woman, right? "
"there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day." (verse 31)
Thank you for your response.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
At creation, of course.
The works of God are all good, so when God created man on the 6th day, man was at rest with God.
God rested on the 7th day, but this was His rest, as man was already at rest with God.
Yes, we needed rest, because when we sinned, we entered a state of UNREST with God. Hence the institution of a day of rest for the Jews, after He rescued them from bondage in Egypt.
Let's look at this again:
Genesis 2:2-3 "And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made."
GOD rested 3rdAngel. MAN was ALREADY at rest in God. There's no need for man to take another rest when man is already at rest.
Your doctrine would make more sense if man was in a state of UNREST at the time of our creation. That is, it would make more sense if man had been created sinful, and needed a vehicle to enter God's rest.
Essentially you argue:
- Man was at unrest when created and needed a vehicle (Sabbath) to obtain rest
- Man was in rest at creation, but God decided man needed a rest from the rest He was already providing.
There is simply NOTHING in the Genesis account that supports your contention that God made the Sabbath a day of rest for ALL MANKIND on the 7th day of the creation week. That is not SCRIPTURE talking, that is your DOCTRINE talking.
Please explain why you believe man needed a rest from the rest we already had since the beginning of our creation. I see no reason, biblically or logically, why man would need a special day of rest from God's rest.
We did not need to be brought into a state of rest until AFTER, and not BEFORE the fall. We fell from grace and this put us at a state of unrest with God. This did not occur at the point of our creation, but would occur later in the garden.
The Sabbath given to the Jews was an acknowledgement that they were in a state of unrest and foreshadows a return to mankind's complete rest in God. They left Egypt to return to God. God rested on the 7th day for our benefit, not for His 3rdAngel.
Jesus stated quite clearly:
Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Can you explain why Jesus is offering HIS rest if the Sabbath was plainly available to "All mankind"?
Also, can you explain why he's offering rest for our souls, if the Sabbath, and only the Sabbath, is our day of rest?
You are a trinitarian are you not? So you understand that when we enter Jesus' rest we are at rest with God, and not only on special days of the week but even if it is the 7th day, because Christ is Lord, even of the Sabbath. The offer Jesus makes is to ALL MANKIND. It's an offer to enter the same rest we had before the fall.
For the Christian, this requires a STRONG faith in the life and ministry of Christ and a lot LESS faith in our own works. It is a lot easier to rely on our own works than express faith in Christ. I understand some Christians prefer to place some of their faith in Special Days rather than going "all in" on Christ, but the unique thing about our faith is that both will stand because Christ says he will make them stand:
14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. (Romans)
So whether we eat vegetables or not, whether we have special days or not, our Lord promises he can make us stand, so we are not swayed by assertions that we will fall. It is to each master that we stand or fall, and for the Christian, our master is Christ, not "sin" or "lawlessness" as you claim. Clearly, if we are to stand before the law, then the last verse would have read: "To Yet, Christ does not tell us we will stand before laws and ordinances, we will stand or fall before him.
Your theory alleges that if we violate the Jewish Sabbath, Christ cannot make us stand. It's a theory that requires a doctrine that simply has no basis in scripture.
So very well said... but, unfortunately, one must have ears that hear and heart-eyes that see. It takes the anointing to give sight to the blind and make deaf ears hear.
We also know, 2 Cor 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
But well explained!
Oeste
Well-Known Member
I pointed out this error earlier:
The "REMEMBER" in Exodus 20:8 is NOT pointing back to Genesis. The folly of this is that none of the Jews listening wouldn't have the faintest idea if their memories had to go back that far. Why? Because they WERE NOT ALIVE AT THE TIME!
The "REMEMBER" simply points back to the 1st Sabbath Day for the Jews, which occurred 3 weeks earlier. All you need do is go back to Exodus 16:29, a day the Jews living then would have definitely remembered:
The "REMEMBER" in Exodus 20:8 is NOT pointing back to Genesis. The folly of this is that none of the Jews listening wouldn't have the faintest idea if their memories had to go back that far. Why? Because they WERE NOT ALIVE AT THE TIME!
The "REMEMBER" simply points back to the 1st Sabbath Day for the Jews, which occurred 3 weeks earlier. All you need do is go back to Exodus 16:29, a day the Jews living then would have definitely remembered:
Then the Lord said to Moses, “How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? 29 Bear in mind that the Lord has given mankind you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives mankind you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
I guess my biggest difficulty is actually taking the time to break it down to people who really aren't interested and not going to change their minds...
ROFL - that being said, one can equally say that I am also amazed at how much time the supposed "Angel " puts out in the volumes of information that is posted when I'm not budging either... we are both convinced in our own hearts as it says in Romans 14.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Thank you @Kenny. As always I enjoy reading your posts and agree with them whole heartedly. I just wish I had more time to respond with you.
As it is, I have more than a few things to go over with @3rdAngel, including his last response to me, and I hope to get to it shortly, if not tonight, then perhaps later on in the week.
Obviously, if what 3rdAngel says is true, then God was giving bread to all mankind for two days so they could take the 7th, and He was doing this since creation. It requires, IMO, a doctrine that takes fantastical leaps of logic.
As you have stated previously, the vast majority of Christians have no problems with anyone who wants to keep a Sabbath. I find not one person who has labels their self Christian has argued here that Christian Sabbath keepers should be condemned or shown the curb for their doctrine. Instead, for the sake of those who do attempt to keep a Sabbath, we don't begrudge, condemn, or hold them sinful and/or lawless for their belief.
From my standpoint (and I am well aware, yours as well) , I would rather be accused of putting too much faith in Christ, then of not placing enough faith in a Sabbath Day.