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"THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Again, you keep missing the point, which appears to be your #1 m.o. On top of that, apparently you don't take serious Jesus' response to "Which is the Greatest Commandment?".
Actually I do indeed take it seriously but I would also challenge your view of Matthew 22:36-40. What do you think it means?
The Bible is not God and God is not the Bible, nor is the Bible perfect, thus I am not the one into idolatry as some appear to be.
The bible is not God but all scripture is inspired by God and is God breathed therefore is given us from God and are His Word to all mankind that we are to live by and to follow according to 2 Timothy 3:16 and Jesus in Matthew 4:4
Jesus said "judge ye not...", so should I return your "favor" and say that you are "not a true Christian"? No 3rdAngel, I don't make judgments like you do. Maybe you should search your own soul versus judging others.
True but Jesus also, says in John 7:24 do not judge according to outward appearance but judge righteous judgement. That is of course none of us are righteous only Gods' Word is the standard of righteousness and truth (Romans 3:4) that we are to believe and follow (John 3:36; Acts 5:29). So according to Jesus we can make judgements according to the scriptures as to what is true and what is not. I do not and have never judged your salvation but I have simply provided scripture as to what is true and what is not true (righteous judgement).

Take Care.
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I'm highly influenced by the book "Jesus the Pharisee" by Rabbi Harvey Falk. It shows how the arguments with the Pharisees can best be understood as the argument between two schools of Pharisaical thought: bet Shammai (which was very very strict and dominated teh Sanhedrin in Jesus ministry years) and bet Hillel (which was more lenient). The positions that Jesus took on the law fall in line with bet Hillel (with the exception to his teaching on divorce). Thus, Jesus arguments with the bet Shammai Pharisees would be typical for the day.
Thanks for sharing your views Indigo. The only problem here for me is that Jesus was never a Pharisee. Jesus never studied with the Pharisaical schools. This was why the Jews were amazed and the Scribes and Pharisees would also proclaim to each other, in John 7:15 15, And the Jews marveled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
Matthew 23 shows how Jesus believed the Pharisees had teaching authority, including the Oral Torah. Matthew 23: 1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do EVERYTHING they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
For me there is also another part of the scripture that is the immediate context that needs attention and this is highlighted in the section below....
  • Matthew 23: 1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “THE TEACHERS OF THE LAW AND THE PHARISEES SIT IN MOSES SEAT. 3 So you must be careful to do EVERYTHING they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Why this is important to me is that the context to "everything they tell you to do follow" is in context to "the teachers of the law that sin in Moses seat". That is for me those who teach Gods' law (the scriptures) representing what Moses teaches.

Jesus is not saying anywhere here that we are to to everything that is man-made teachings and tradition that is not in Gods Word (holy scripture) that leads us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. If that was true then you have Jesus in contradiction to Jesus who also says...
  • Matthew 15:3-9 3, But he answered and said unto them, WHY DO YE ALSO TRANSGRESS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD BY YOUR TRADITION? 4, FOR GOD COMMANDED, SAYING, HONOUR THY FATHER AND MOTHER: AND, HE THAT CURSETH FATHER OR MOTHER, LET HIM DIE THE DEATH. 5, BUT YE SAY, WHOSOEVER SHALL SAY TO HIS FATHER OR HIS MOTHER, IT IS A GIFT, BY WHATSOEVER THOU MIGHTEST BE PROFITED BY ME; 6, And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. THUS HAVE YE MADE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT BY YOUR TRADITION. 7, YE HYPOCRITES, WELL DID ESAIAS PROPHESY OF YOU, SAYING, 8, THIS PEOPLE DRAWETH NIGH UNTO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH, AND HONOURETH ME WITH THEIR LIPS; BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME. 9, BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.
Note: So Jesus here is clearly stating that if we follow man-made teachings that lead us away from God and His Word we are making the commandments of God of none effect and not worshiping God in doing so. Jesus furthermore in Matthew 15:14 calls these teacher "blind leaders of the blind and to leave them alone because they will both fall into a ditch.

Again Jesus tells us that the Scribes and Pharisees with their man-made teachings and traditions around the Sabbath were making it a burden for the people when saying...
  • Mark 2:23-28 23, And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. 24, AND THE PHARISEES SAID UNTO HIM, BEHOLD, WHY DO THEY ON THE SABBATH DAY THAT WHICH IS NOT LAWFUL? 25, AND HE SAID UNTO THEM, HAVE YE NEVER READ WHAT DAVID DID, WHEN HE HAD NEED, AND WAS AN HUNGRED, HE, AND THEY THAT WERE WITH HIM? 26, HOW HE WENT INTO THE HOUSE OF GOD IN THE DAYS OF ABIATHAR THE HIGH PRIEST, AND DID EAT THE SHEWBREAD, WHICH IS NOT LAWFUL TO EAT BUT FOR THE PRIESTS, AND GAVE ALSO TO THEM WHICH WERE WITH HIM? 27, And he said unto them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN, AND NOT MAN FOR THE SABBATH: 28, Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
As can be shown above it was these man-made teachings and traditions placed around the Sabbath unsupported by the scriptures that made Sabbath keeping a burden to Gods' people. Jesus here is teaching that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath and it is the Spirit of the law of love and mercy that needs to be considered here not man-made teachings and traditions that make Gods' law a burden. The Sabbath therefore was made by God as a blessing for all mankind not a burden. The Scribes and the Pharisees were constantly accusing Jesus of breaking the Sabbath because they placed so many man made teachings around the Sabbath they lost sight of what the Sabbath was about and why God gave it (see Matthew 12:1-12).
Everything would include Oral Torah.
Agreed, the written Word of God (scripture) came from the spoken Words of God not the Scribes and the Pharisees. They were to sit in the seat of Moses sharing Gods' Word and law not adding to it.
Matthew 23:23 23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. The spice tax was an example of Oral Torah. By saying "without neglecting the former" Jesus was teaching that Jews should not neglect the Oral Torah.
Well this is talking about tithing here (verse 23) from the Torah law in scripture (e.g. Nehemiah 10:37; Malachi 3:8 etc). I have no problem with this scripture as it is from the Torah not a man-made teaching and tradition.
Remember that Jesus was a Jew who practiced second temple Judaism, including the Oral Torah. For example, he washed his hands before eating.
Agreed but there is an interesting scripture in Matthew 15:2-9. The Scribes and Pharisees were accusing the disciples of not washing they hands and following the traditions of the elders. Have a read of what Jesus says to them. I appreciate the friendly discussion with you here.

God bless.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Your response here...

So you you have no link and evidence for your false claims and accusations do you.
They were pointed out when you made the.

How many times do you need this correction?

EDIT: Ironically it appears that he has run away from the post a couple down from the one that he responded to with more false claims where his links and verses were given to him.

Why do I even bother?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
All right prove to me in the article where I am wrong? If you cannot why make false claims and accusations? You have no evidence again do you. Lets discuss the detail and facts.
And once again, the time to discuss is when the discussion is going on. When you constantly run away it is hard to "prove" anything.
And now you will probably deny that you ran away again.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Actually I do indeed take it seriously but I would also change your view of Matthew 22:36-40. What do you think it means?

The bible is not God but all scripture is inspired by God and is God breathed therefore is given us from God and are His Word to all mankind that we are to live by and to follow according to 2 Timothy 3:16 and Jesus in Matthew 4:4

True but Jesus also, says in John 7:24 do not judge according to outward appearance but judge righteous judgement. That is of course none of us are righteous only Gods' Word is the standard of righteousness and truth (Romans 3:4) that we are to believe and follow (John 3:36; Acts 5:29). So according to Jesus we can make judgements according to the scriptures as to what is true and what is not. I do not and have never judged your salvation but I have simply provided scripture as to what is true and what is not true (righteous judgement).

Take Care.
Since we can't even begin to agree on the basic issue of scriptural inerrancy, there's no where to go on this, thus this is my last post. But I don't question whether someone is a "true Christian" or not, which is an approach I think is morally bankrupt and violates Jesus' teaching on this.

Take care and goodbye.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Thanks for sharing your views Indigo. The only problem here for me is that Jesus was never a Pharisee. Jesus never studied with the Pharisaical schools.
Well, this is where you and I disagree. It took Harvey Falk a whole book to go into why this can be seen from the teachings of Jesus, so I'm not going to attempt to summarize it here.

This was why the Jews were amazed and the Scribes and Pharisees would also proclaim to each other, in John 7:15 15, And the Jews marveled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
This is one of the reasons I think the gospels are written by gentiles and not Jews, because a Jew would know that the Pharisees opened Jewish Day Schools so that every Jewish boy could learn to read the Torah.

For me there is also another part of the scripture that is the immediate context that needs attention and this is highlighted in the section below....
  • Matthew 23: 1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “THE TEACHERS OF THE LAW AND THE PHARISEES SIT IN MOSES SEAT. 3 So you must be careful to do EVERYTHING they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Why this is important to me is that the context to "everything they tell you to do follow" is in context to "the teachers of the law that sin in Moses seat". That is for me those who teach Gods' law (the scriptures) representing what Moses teaches.
But if you look at your quote, you will ssee that it doesn't just say teachers of the law. It spells out the Pharisees specifically. It was the Pharisees that sat on the seat of Moses, meaning that they had the authority to teach and interpret the law.

Jesus is not saying anywhere here that we are to to everything that is man-made teachings and tradition that is not in Gods Word (holy scripture) that leads us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. If that was true then you have Jesus in contradiction to Jesus who also says...
  • Matthew 15:3-9 3, But he answered and said unto them, WHY DO YE ALSO TRANSGRESS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD BY YOUR TRADITION? 4, FOR GOD COMMANDED, SAYING, HONOUR THY FATHER AND MOTHER: AND, HE THAT CURSETH FATHER OR MOTHER, LET HIM DIE THE DEATH. 5, BUT YE SAY, WHOSOEVER SHALL SAY TO HIS FATHER OR HIS MOTHER, IT IS A GIFT, BY WHATSOEVER THOU MIGHTEST BE PROFITED BY ME; 6, And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. THUS HAVE YE MADE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT BY YOUR TRADITION. 7, YE HYPOCRITES, WELL DID ESAIAS PROPHESY OF YOU, SAYING, 8, THIS PEOPLE DRAWETH NIGH UNTO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH, AND HONOURETH ME WITH THEIR LIPS; BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME. 9, BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.
Note: So Jesus here is clearly stating that if we follow man-made teachings that lead us away from God and His Word we are making the commandments of God of none effect and not worshiping God in doing so. Jesus furthermore in Matthew 15:14 calls these teacher "blind leaders of the blind and to leave them alone because they will both fall into a ditch.

Again Jesus tells us that the Scribes and Pharisees with their man-made teachings and traditions around the Sabbath were making it a burden for the people when saying...
  • Mark 2:23-28 23, And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. 24, AND THE PHARISEES SAID UNTO HIM, BEHOLD, WHY DO THEY ON THE SABBATH DAY THAT WHICH IS NOT LAWFUL? 25, AND HE SAID UNTO THEM, HAVE YE NEVER READ WHAT DAVID DID, WHEN HE HAD NEED, AND WAS AN HUNGRED, HE, AND THEY THAT WERE WITH HIM? 26, HOW HE WENT INTO THE HOUSE OF GOD IN THE DAYS OF ABIATHAR THE HIGH PRIEST, AND DID EAT THE SHEWBREAD, WHICH IS NOT LAWFUL TO EAT BUT FOR THE PRIESTS, AND GAVE ALSO TO THEM WHICH WERE WITH HIM? 27, And he said unto them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN, AND NOT MAN FOR THE SABBATH: 28, Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
As can be shown above it was these man-made teachings and traditions placed around the Sabbath unsupported by the scriptures that made Sabbath keeping a burden to Gods' people. Jesus here is teaching that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath and it is the Spirit of the law of love and mercy that needs to be considered here not man-made teachings and traditions that make Gods' law a burden. The Sabbath therefore was made by God as a blessing for all mankind not a burden. The Scribes and the Pharisees were constantly accusing Jesus of breaking the Sabbath because they placed so many man made teachings around the Sabbath they lost sight of what the Sabbath was about and why God gave it (see Matthew 12:1-12).

Well then perhaps you have a problem with the gospels contradicting themselves, because Matthew 23:1-3 is crystal clear that Jesus' followers were to do and observe EVERYTHING the Pharisees taught, and part of what the Pharisees taught was the Oral Torah.

A lot of your confusion has to do with your lack of understanding of Halakhah, Jewish law. For example, Halakhah demands that if a life is at stake, we are required to break the other laws to save it (with the exceptions of idolatry, adultery, and murder). There is no law against healing through prayer on the sabbath. There is no law that says if you are starving you can't take shewbread.

Agreed, the written Word of God (scripture) came from the spoken Words of God not the Scribes and the Pharisees. They were to sit in the seat of Moses sharing Gods' Word and law not adding to it.
I suspect you don't know what the words Oral Torah mean. They don't mean what God spoke. They mean what the elders/judges/Pharisees/rabbis spoke, which was passed down orally until the middle ages, when they were finally written down as the Talmud. God himself gives the rabbis authority to interpret the law in Deuteronomy 17:8-13 If you believe the Torah is the words of God to Moses, then you are sort of forced to accept Oral Torah as well.

Well this is talking about tithing here (verse 23) from the Torah law in scripture (e.g. Nehemiah 10:37; Malachi 3:8 etc). I have no problem with this scripture as it is from the Torah not a man-made teaching and tradition.
The oral torah interprets torah so that torah can be followed. The spice tax was the oral torah specifics. IOW yes, tithing was part of the Torah, but the specifics of mint, cumin, and dill is Oral Torah. thus, when Jesus teaches keeping the spice tax, he is teaching to keep oral torah.

Agreed but there is an interesting scripture in Matthew 15:2-9. The Scribes and Pharisees were accusing the disciples of not washing they hands and following the traditions of the elders. Have a read of what Jesus says to them. I appreciate the friendly discussion with you here.

God bless.
The oral tradition of washing hands was not yet set in stone in Jesus' day. There were those who did it, and those who didn't. Some of Jesus disciples did not wash their hands. BUT JESUS DID. It is a good example of him following an oral tradition.
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
3rdAngel said: Thanks for sharing your views Indigo. The only problem here for me is that Jesus was never a Pharisee. Jesus never studied with the Pharisaical schools.
Your response here...
Well, this is where you and I disagree. It took Harvey Falk a whole book to go into why this can be seen from the teachings of Jesus, so I'm not going to attempt to summarize it here. This is one of the reasons I think the gospels are written by gentiles and not Jews, because a Jew would know that the Pharisees opened Jewish Day Schools so that every Jewish boy could learn to read the Torah.
Fair enough. My understanding was that the Jewish leadership was made up of both learned Rabbis that were both the elite Scribes of the Priesthood as well elite Pharisees and that both parties had variations in their belief systems. The Pharisees according to tradition only admitted those into their membership, in the presence of three members, pledged themselves to the strict observance of Levitical purity, to the avoidance of closer association with the 'Am ha-Areẓ (the ignorant and careless boor), to the scrupulous payment of tithes and other imposts due to the priest, the Levite, and the poor, and to a conscientious regard for vows and for other people's property (Dem. ii. 3; Tosef., Dem. ii. 1). ey called their members "ḥaberim" (brothers), while they passed under the name of "Perishaya," or "Perushim." Though originally identical with the Ḥasidim, they reserved the title of "ḥasid" for former generations ("ḥasidim ha-rishonim"; see Essenes), retaining, however, the name "Perishut" (='Αμιξία = "separation," in contradistinction to 'Επιμιξία = "intermingling") as their watch word from the time of the Maccabean contest (see II Macc. xiv. 37; comp. verse 3). Both elite members of the Scribes and Pharisees were teachers of the Mosiac laws that helped educate each Jew in the local Synagogues there were spread throughout the region teaching each Jew in the Torah as children from 5 years old to 12 years of age.

Further education and places of further study were also available for promising students. Academies of the rabbis were the secondary schools for promising students. The academy was called the “House of Study” (בֵּת הַמִּדְרָשׁ). It seems probable that the elementary schools studied the OT and the oral law, the Mishnah. In the secondary schools the rabbis conducted theological discussions, and these discussions now have been written down and constitute the Talmud. Each house of study was conducted by a great Pharisaic teacher (cf. Hillel and Shamai). These academies had more sanctity even than the synagogue (Megillah 26b-27a). Under the leadership of the rabbi, students discussed and debated the interpretation of the Torah and its application. These discussions became the basis of normative Judaism. The Apostles Paul was educated in the academy of the Pharisee Gamaliel, who was the grandson of Hillel and was prob. the leading teacher of the time. The first mention of “the House of Study” is in Ecclesiasticus 51:23. A mention of the men of the great assembly or the Great Synagogue in the Mishnah is prob. also a reference to the academies. Jesus was never taught in these Academies. He only received the basic education and did a trade in carpentry. This is why it was written in the scripture shared with you earlier, in John 7:15 15, And the Jews marveled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus was never taught in the Academies of the Sages or Rabbis.

You can find more info here...
3rdAngel said: For me there is also another part of the scripture that is the immediate context that needs attention and this is highlighted in the section below....https://www.religiousforums.com/goto/post?id=7949592#post-7949592
  • Matthew 23: 1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “THE TEACHERS OF THE LAW AND THE PHARISEES SIT IN MOSES SEAT. 3 So you must be careful to do EVERYTHING they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Why this is important to me is that the context to "everything they tell you to do follow" is in context to "the teachers of the law that sin in Moses seat". That is for me those who teach Gods' law (the scriptures) representing what Moses teaches.
Your response here...
But if you look at your quote, you will ssee that it doesn't just say teachers of the law. It spells out the Pharisees specifically. It was the Pharisees that sat on the seat of Moses, meaning that they had the authority to teach and interpret the law.
The scripture you are quoting from in Matthew 23:1-3 says in Matthew 23:2 2 “THE TEACHERS OF THE LAW AND THE PHARISEES SIT IN MOSES SEAT. Before the Pharisee, it was the role of the Scribes who were of the Levitical Priesthood that had the role of being the "teachers of the law". Jesus here and as History shows in the linked references in the previous section, the learned Pharisees were also able to fulfill this role as being teachers of the law. Jesus is saying here that both the Scribe and the Pharisee sit Moses seat because it is their role as learned Rabbis, teachers and leaders, to teach the law of God and the Torah to Gods' people. That was the seat and role of Moses. There role as we saw with scripture examples in my previous post was not to teach the people that man-made teachings and tradition are greater than the scriptures handed down from Moses and Jesus rebuked them for thinking this in Matthew 15:2-9.
3rdAngel said: Jesus is not saying anywhere here that we are to to everything that is man-made teachings and tradition that is not in Gods Word (holy scripture) that leads us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. If that was true then you have Jesus in contradiction to Jesus who also says...
  • Matthew 15:3-9 3, But he answered and said unto them, WHY DO YE ALSO TRANSGRESS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD BY YOUR TRADITION? 4, FOR GOD COMMANDED, SAYING, HONOUR THY FATHER AND MOTHER: AND, HE THAT CURSETH FATHER OR MOTHER, LET HIM DIE THE DEATH. 5, BUT YE SAY, WHOSOEVER SHALL SAY TO HIS FATHER OR HIS MOTHER, IT IS A GIFT, BY WHATSOEVER THOU MIGHTEST BE PROFITED BY ME; 6, And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. THUS HAVE YE MADE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT BY YOUR TRADITION. 7, YE HYPOCRITES, WELL DID ESAIAS PROPHESY OF YOU, SAYING, 8, THIS PEOPLE DRAWETH NIGH UNTO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH, AND HONOURETH ME WITH THEIR LIPS; BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME. 9, BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.
Note: So Jesus here is clearly stating that if we follow man-made teachings that lead us away from God and His Word we are making the commandments of God of none effect and not worshiping God in doing so. Jesus furthermore in Matthew 15:14 calls these teacher "blind leaders of the blind and to leave them alone because they will both fall into a ditch.

Again Jesus tells us that the Scribes and Pharisees with their man-made teachings and traditions around the Sabbath were making it a burden for the people when saying...
  • Mark 2:23-28 23, And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbatO THE HOUSE OF GOD IN THE DAYS OF ABIATHAR THE HIGH PRIEST, AND DID EAT THE SHEWBREAD, WHICH IS NOT LAWFUL TO EAT BUT FOR THE PRIESTS, AND Gh day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. 24, AND THE PHARISEES SAID UNTO HIM, BEHOLD, WHY DO THEY ON THE SABBATH DAY THAT WHICH IS NOT LAWFUL? 25, AND HE SAID UNTO THEM, HAVE YE NEVER READ WHAT DAVID DID, WHEN HE HAD NEED, AND WAS AN HUNGRED, HE, AND THEY THAT WERE WITH HIM? 26, HOW HE WENT INTAVE ALSO TO THEM WHICH WERE WITH HIM? 27, And he said unto them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN, AND NOT MAN FOR THE SABBATH: 28, Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
As can be shown above it was these man-made teachings and traditions placed around the Sabbath unsupported by the scriptures that made Sabbath keeping a burden to Gods' people. Jesus here is teaching that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath and it is the Spirit of the law of love and mercy that needs to be considered here not man-made teachings and traditions that make Gods' law a burden. The Sabbath therefore was made by God as a blessing for all mankind not a burden. The Scribes and the Pharisees were constantly accusing Jesus of breaking the Sabbath because they placed so many man made teachings around the Sabbath they lost sight of what the Sabbath was about and why God gave it (see Matthew 12:1-12).
Your response here...
Well then perhaps you have a problem with the gospels contradicting themselves, because Matthew 23:1-3 is crystal clear that Jesus' followers were to do and observe EVERYTHING the Pharisees taught, and part of what the Pharisees taught was the Oral Torah. A lot of your confusion has to do with your lack of understanding of Halakhah, Jewish law. For example, Halakhah demands that if a life is at stake, we are required to break the other laws to save it (with the exceptions of idolatry, adultery, and murder). There is no law against healing through prayer on the sabbath. There is no law that says if you are starving you can't take shewbread.
No I have no problem, and the gospels do not contradict each other as explained in the previous sections. As explained in the previous section and shown through the scriptures, I believe it is the context that you are disregarding in Matthew 23:1-3 in Matthew 23:2 that you have not considered in your interpretation of the scriptures here which shows that it is everything in the teachings of the Mosaic law that Jesus is telling the people to follow. Matthew 15:2:9 proves this very claim when Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees for making man-made teachings and traditions leading others to break the Mosiac law. For these reasons I believe your interpretation of Matthew 23:1-3 is in error here and Matthew 15:2-9 proves this.

continued...
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
3rdAngel said: Agreed, the written Word of God (scripture) came from the spoken Words of God not the Scribes and the Pharisees. They were to sit in the seat of Moses sharing Gods' Word and law not adding to it.
Your response here...
I suspect you don't know what the words Oral Torah mean. They don't mean what God spoke. They mean what the elders/judges/Pharisees/rabbis spoke, which was passed down orally until the middle ages, when they were finally written down as the Talmud. God himself gives the rabbis authority to interpret the law in Deuteronomy 17:8-13 If you believe the Torah is the words of God to Moses, then you are sort of forced to accept Oral Torah as well. The oral torah interprets torah so that torah can be followed. The spice tax was the oral torah specifics. IOW yes, tithing was part of the Torah, but the specifics of mint, cumin, and dill is Oral Torah. thus, when Jesus teaches keeping the spice tax, he is teaching to keep oral torah.
It means different things to differing people. Thank you for clarifying what you mean here. I do not believe that man-made teachings and traditions supersede the scriptures that come from the spoken word of God and the writings of Moses and the Prophets. So we will agree to disagree here. As posted earlier the scripture you provided in your earlier post was in regards to tithing from the Torah law in scripture (e.g. Nehemiah 10:37; Malachi 3:8 etc). I have no problem with this scripture as it is from the Torah not a man-made teaching and tradition. As to Deuteronomy 17:1-20 this is talking about the Jews making judgements in matters of civil law and the death penalty during that period of time in the old testament. It is not talking about only the Scribes or Pharisees being only able to interpret scripture. The scripture tell us directly that none of us can understand Gods' Words unless God is our personal guide and teacher and we need to prayerfully seek God to understand His Words (see Isaiah 55:7-9; John 7:17; John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 John 2:27 which a part of the new covenant promise in Hebrews 8:10-12 conditional to believing and following what Gods' Word says (see John 8:31-36). None of us can know Gods' Word if God is not our personal guide and teacher according to the scriptures. This is why it is written in the scripture, " Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD." - Jeremiah 17:5
Agreed but there is an interesting scripture in Matthew 15:2-9. The Scribes and Pharisees were accusing the disciples of not washing they hands and following the traditions of the elders. Have a read of what Jesus says to them. I appreciate the friendly discussion with you here. - God bless.
Your response here...
The oral tradition of washing hands was not yet set in stone in Jesus' day. There were those who did it, and those who didn't. Some of Jesus disciples did not wash their hands. BUT JESUS DID. It is a good example of him following an oral tradition.
I think you missed the point here that was being made in the rest of the scriptures and the words of Jesus to be honest Indigo. As posted earlier, Jesus is not saying anywhere here that we are to to everything that is man-made teachings and tradition that is not in Gods Word (holy scripture) that leads us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. If that was true then Jesus would not be saying what he said in the rest of the scripture that were quoted below...
  • Matthew 15:3-9 3, But he answered and said unto them, WHY DO YE ALSO TRANSGRESS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD BY YOUR TRADITION? 4, FOR GOD COMMANDED, SAYING, HONOUR THY FATHER AND MOTHER: AND, HE THAT CURSETH FATHER OR MOTHER, LET HIM DIE THE DEATH. 5, BUT YE SAY, WHOSOEVER SHALL SAY TO HIS FATHER OR HIS MOTHER, IT IS A GIFT, BY WHATSOEVER THOU MIGHTEST BE PROFITED BY ME; 6, And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. THUS HAVE YE MADE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT BY YOUR TRADITION. 7, YE HYPOCRITES, WELL DID ESAIAS PROPHESY OF YOU, SAYING, 8, THIS PEOPLE DRAWETH NIGH UNTO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH, AND HONOURETH ME WITH THEIR LIPS; BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME. 9, BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.
Note: So Jesus here is clearly stating that if we follow man-made teachings that lead us away from God and His Word we are making the commandments of God of none effect and not worshiping God in doing so. Jesus furthermore in Matthew 15:14 calls these teacher "blind leaders of the blind and to leave them alone because they will both fall into a ditch.

I appreciate the friendly discussion.

Take Care.
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
They were pointed out when you made the.
How many times do you need this correction?
You haven't corrected me on anything. You simply quoted you unsupported by any facts or evidence. When challenged and asked to provide a link to prove your claims you ran away and did not provide any and still have not provided anything when asked.
EDIT: Ironically it appears that he has run away from the post a couple down from the one that he responded to with more false claims where his links and verses were given to him. Why do I even bother?
Actually that claim has no truth in it. It was you running away making claims you have never been able to prove. You have no link do you to your earlier claims. I did not think you would. Just more of the same from you I see. Please do not be untruthful. You never provided and links to your false claim. Why pretend that you did?
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
3rdAngel said: All right prove to me in the article where I am wrong? If you cannot why make false claims and accusations? You have no evidence again do you. Lets discuss the detail and facts
Your response here...
And once again, the time to discuss is when the discussion is going on. When you constantly run away it is hard to "prove" anything.
And now you will probably deny that you ran away again.
So you have no linked do you. I see your running away from the discussion again. Your only proving to me once more that you cannot support your false claims with any evidence of facts. Not really great for an evidence based discussion now is it.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Since we can't even begin to agree on the basic issue of scriptural inerrancy, there's no where to go on this, thus this is my last post. But I don't question whether someone is a "true Christian" or not, which is an approach I think is morally bankrupt and violates Jesus' teaching on this. Take care and goodbye.

Alright dear friend we will agree to disagree, nice talking to you.

Take care.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You haven't corrected me on anything. You simply quoted you unsupported by any facts or evidence. When challenged and asked to provide a link to prove your claims you ran away and did not provide any and still have not provided anything when asked.

Actually that claim has no truth in it. It was you running away making claims you have never been able to prove. You have no link do you to your earlier claims. I did not think you would. Just more of the same from you I see. Please do not be untruthful. You never provided and links to your false claim. Why pretend that you did?
Oh my. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

And yes, when I have to ask the same question four or five times that means that you are running away.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Your response here...

So you have no linked do you. I see your running away from the discussion again. Your only proving to me once more that you cannot support your false claims with any evidence of facts. Not really great for an evidence based discussion now is it.
LOL!! What part of responding when the topic comes up is too hard for you to understand?

Please note, I am not the only one that has noticed this.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Oh my. Denial is not a river in Egypt.
And yes, when I have to ask the same question four or five times that means that you are running away.
You are indeed a funny one. More empty claims without any evidence. So did you want to provide your links as evidence? I did not think so. Just more of the same empty claims and running away on your behalf I see. Nothing new. Lets talk more when you go prove your claims.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
LOL!! What part of responding when the topic comes up is too hard for you to understand?
Please note, I am not the only one that has noticed this.
Follow the conversation. You have been making all these false claims and accusations in posts and discussions I have been having with others. I asked you to provide evidence for your claims in linked posts. You continue not to provide anything only proving your claims are not truthful. Now your running away when challenged to provide evidence for your claims because you have none. You do make me smile though when I read your posts.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You are indeed a funny one. More empty claims without any evidence. So did you want to provide your links as evidence? I did not think so. Just more of the same empty claims and running away on your behalf I see. Nothing new. Lets talk more when you go prove your claims.
None is needed. In this case the thread is the evidence. You will only continue to lose the argument when you can only focus on your past defeats.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Follow the conversation. You have been making all these false claims and accusations in posts and discussions I have been having with others. I asked you to provide evidence for your claims in linked posts. You continue not to provide anything only proving your claims are not truthful. Now your running away when challenged to provide evidence for your claims because you have none. You do make me smile though when I read your posts.
Nope. Stating observable facts.

And you are once again breaking your own rules.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
None is needed. In this case the thread is the evidence. You will only continue to lose the argument when you can only focus on your past defeats.
Lets talk more when you can prove your claims. Until then we can agree to disagree. Take Care dear friend.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Amazing fun scripture facts from the bible about God's 4th commandment
  • Fact # 1. Chapter and scripture context to Colossians 2:16 is to the ceremonial shadow laws of circumcision and baptism, ceremonial laws in ordinances, that are nailed to the cross, food offerings and drink offerings, new moons in the annual feast days and their sabbaths and not judging others in context to the above.
  • Fact # 2. Colossians 2 no where states that is talking about any of God's 10 commandments but the context is to the ceremonial Mosaic laws (e.g. sin offerings etc)
  • Fact # 4. God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandment is our weekly moral duty of love to God and one of God's eternal laws that the new testament scriptures state give us the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS if broken or obeyed *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172; 1 Corinthians 7:19; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-9; Revelation 14:12; Revelations 22:14; John 14:15; Hebrews 4:9; James 2:10-11; Matthew 5:17-19.
  • Fact # 5 There is not a single scripture in all of Gods' Word that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep "Sunday" or the "First day" of the week as a Holy day.
  • Fact # 6 "Sunday" or the "First day of the week" is never called a "Holy day" in any scripture in the bible.
  • Fact # 7 "Sunday" or the "First day" of the week was never "blessed" or set aside by God for anything in any scripture in the bible other than work.
  • Fact # 8 God set apart the "seventh day of the week from all the other days of the week at the end of creation as a day of rest for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27
  • Fact # 9 God set apart the "seventh day of the week from all the other days of the week at the end of creation as a day of rest for all mankind and made the seventh day of the week a "Holy day of rest" *Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27
  • Fact # 10 God commands his people to keep the "seventh day" of the week as a Holy day or rest and it is one of God's 10 commandments that define what sin is if knowingly broken *Exodus 20:8-11; Romans 3:20; James 2:10-11
  • Fact # 11 JESUS is the creator God of the Sabbath who made all things *John 1:1-4; John 1:14; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16.
  • Fact # 12 JESUS is Lord of the Sabbath. It is the "Lords day" of rest *Hebrews 4:1-5 and JESUS created the Sabbath for all mankind as a memorial of creation and celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth and commands His people to keep it as a memorial of creation and a holy day of rest *Mark 2:27-28; Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Hebrews 4:9; James 2:8-10
  • Fact # 13 God's 4th commandment Sabbath of the 10 commandments is not a shadow law because the shadow laws were not given until after the fall of mankind when Adam and Eve sinned against God. The prophetic "shadow law" part of the Mosaic laws (not 10 commandments) foreshadowing the coming of Christ and God's plan of salvation for all mankind. The Sabbath points back to the finished work of creation not forward to something to come because there was no sin when God created the Sabbath for man and no plan of salvation was given *Genesis 2:1-3
  • Fact # 14 God's people will be still keeping the Sabbath after the second coming in the new heavens and the new earth *Isaiah 66:22-23
  • Fact # 15 There is no scripture that says that God's Sabbath was changed to "Sunday" or the first day of the week
  • Fact # 16 There is no scripture that states anywhere that JESUS is a Sabbath. The sabbath is defined in God's Word alone as "the seventh day" of the week *Exodus 20:10
  • Fact # 17 There is no scripture that says we are to keep the first day as a Holy day of rest before or after the resurrection of Jesus by any of the Apostles.
  • Fact # 18 There is no scripture that ever calls the first day of the week (Sunday) a holy day. Sunday has it's origins in pagan sun worship.
  • Fact # 19 There is no scripture that ever givers Sunday or the first day of the week a sacred name.
  • Fact # 20 There is no scripture that says any of the Apostles kept Sunday or the first day of the week as a Sabbath.
  • Fact # 21 There is no scripture from any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath.
  • Fact # 22 There is no scripture where we are told to rest and not to work on the first day of the week.
  • Fact # 23 There is no scripture that says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day.
  • Fact # 24 There is no scripture that says the seventh day Sabbath has been abolished.
  • Fact # 25 There is no scripture that the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath or a holy day in honor of the resurrection of Jesus.
  • Fact # 26 There is no scripture that says first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day.
  • Fact # 27 There is no scripture that says the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day.
  • Fact # 28 There is no scripture that says the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest.
  • Fact # 29 There is no scripture that says that says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week
  • Fact # 30 There is no scripture that says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath.
  • Fact # 31 There is no scripture that says that calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday or the first day of the week the “Christian Sabbath”
  • Fact # 32 There is no scripture telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week.
  • Fact # 33 There is no scripture authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day
  • Fact # 34 There is no scripture showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath
  • Fact # 35 There is no scripture authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?
  • Fact # 36 There is no scripture where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath.
  • Fact # 37 There is no scripture declaring that the "seventh day" of the week is no longer the eternal Sabbath day as given in God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments.
  • Fact # 38 There is no scripture that says Sunday is now appointed day to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day.
May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word
 
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