The Lords Prayer - ‘Thine is the Kingdom…’

[Wildswanderer]

An ANALOGY works for all things since they serve only to show the general aspect of what the theme is about. Jesus ANALOGISED the Kingdom Of Heaven to something the people would know about. That is the same as when he used Parables to illustrate the themes he was talking about: things the people would know about (review the parables and see what I mean).

What you are doing is attempting to waysway the truth of what you are reading from me.

You really aren’t very clever in hiding your deceptive methodology!

Nice diversion to avoid addressing the issue.

God has no limits.

 

[Wildswanderer]

We all make mistakes .. but if belief in God is not supposed to make sense, then why study religion?
..it would all be non-sense.

It's not about us. God is never going to completely make sense to a mere human. And it's not about study, but worship.

 

[Wildswanderer]

What ‘Three’?

You only ever mention TWO persons. For instance in verses such as:

• “I and the Father are one”
• “I am going to the Father”
• “[Father]… You are the ONLY TRUE GOD…”
• “[Father]… You sent me!”
• “He sat down next to the Father”
• “Stephen saw GOD on his throne, and Jesus STANDING next to [GOD]”
• “To the one who sat on the throne (God), AND to the Lamb (Jesus) STANDING in front and centre of the throne AMONGST THE ELDERS (Human Beings : Prophets)

((There’s more and I’ve paraphrased the examples.))

What is ‘missing’ from your TRINITY GODHEAD?

What is a Godhead, anyway. Where does that word come from in scriptures…. I’ve never seen it in a legal verse?

1 God is three persons

2 Each person is fully God

3 There is one God
In Marks gospel, he makes it clear our God is one yet three. In verses 9 to 11, Mark mentions God the Son, God the Spirit and God the Father. “In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him; 11 and a voice came out of the heavens: ‘You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.’”

Verse 9–God the Son, verse 10–God the Spirit, and verse 11–God the Father. One in essence and three in persons, one God, three persons.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's not about us. God is never going to completely make sense to a mere human.

It's not just about "God"..
It's about religion, and the pros and cons of creeds.

And it's not about study, but worship.

It's about both.
We need to know what pleases God.

 

[Wildswanderer]

It's not just about "God"..
It's about religion, and the pros and cons of creeds.


It's about both.
We need to know what pleases God.

And how do we discover that?

 

[Redemptionsong]

You keep wanting to know if Jesus was perfectly good. I suggest you refer to the answer that Jesus gave when he referred to as ‘Good’. He said:

• ‘Why do you call me good - There is none good but God’

I'm glad you quoted this passage.

Jesus does not say, the Father is not in me. He asks, Why do you call me good? We know that by 'good' he must mean 'absolutely good' because he applies this 'good' only to God.

If you think Jesus was only relatively good, then Jesus is not God, and not able to save.

If you think Jesus is perfectly good, then you agree with trinitarians, who see the Father in the Son.

The third part of the trinitarian understanding of God's redemption of mankind, takes place through the Holy Spirit. This does not mean that each individual within the body of Christ has the fulness of the measure given to Christ, but that the Church as a whole receives the full measure.

IMO, if a person is not 'born again' of the Holy Spirit, they cannot claim to be a part of the body of Christ.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And how do we discover that?

Make our lives for God, and be prepared to make sacrifices.
Have an open mind, and ask God to guide us.

Knowing what pleases God is one thing and putting it into practice is another. It is far from easy.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If you think Jesus was only relatively good, then Jesus is not God, and not able to save.

It is belief in Jesus and what he taught that saves.
Jesus did not intentionally sin. He was not like any other man.
We are all sinners.
That does not mean that he is God incarnate. There have been other sons of God who didn't intentionally sin as well.
We need to have great respect for the men that God has chosen to communicate with us. While they weren't "ordinary men", it doesn't mean that they were God.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It is belief in Jesus and what he taught that saves.
Jesus did not intentionally sin. He was not like any other man.
We are all sinners.
That does not mean that he is God incarnate. There have been other sons of God who didn't intentionally sin as well.
We need to have great respect for the men that God has chosen to communicate with us. While they weren't "ordinary men", it doesn't mean that they were God.

I'm sorry, but you are not talking about the Jesus of scripture!

The Jesus of scriptire was the one and only mediator between God and men. To hold such a position he needed to be a man without sin, thereby speaking the words of God, and doing the works of God.

Jesus did not leave behind a teaching for men to follow. He said, Follow me! This meant placing complete trust in him as the way to the Father. To know him, you must receive the Holy Spirit that he sends!

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jesus did not leave behind a teaching for men to follow.

I beg to differ.
Jesus was exceptionally close to "the Father". He was inspired by the Father, and we have his teachings in the form of the Gospels.

We as individuals can receive the Holy Spirit if we choose to submit to God, but It doesn't end there.
We are not then on "automatic pilot", and are still responsible for our deeds.
We are all sinners, and have to be vigilant, and seek knowledge.

 

[Soapy]

Nice diversion to avoid addressing the issue.

God has no limits.

Avoiding what issue?

You just can’t stand hearing the truth.

I guess you thought that you could redefine ‘Analogy’ in the same way Trinitarians redefine ‘One’ to mean ‘Three’?

Nil points again…,!!

God told the Israelites that they should have only ONE GOD. This is in opposition to pagan religions in which the belief is in MANY GODS (typically THREE!!!)

I think there is a big hint at the paganism of trinity belief right there.

 

[Soapy]

1 God is three persons

2 Each person is fully God

3 There is one God
In Marks gospel, he makes it clear our God is one yet three. In verses 9 to 11, Mark mentions God the Son, God the Spirit and God the Father. “In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him; 11 and a voice came out of the heavens: ‘You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.’”

Verse 9–God the Son, verse 10–God the Spirit, and verse 11–God the Father. One in essence and three in persons, one God, three persons.

There are no verses saying anything about ‘God the Son’, nor ‘God the Spirit’.

The spirit of God is like a Wind, in the explicit case at the river Jordan, it was ANALOGISED as a ‘GENTLE BREEZE’…. Like that felt when a Dove alights on a perch.

As can be seen in certain trinitarian beliefs, the spirit of God IS A DOVE… when the verse says no such thing… NO! The verse says ‘A BREEZE LIKE A DOVE’.

In the case of Pentecost, the spirit is seen as ‘TONGUES OF FIRE’ following a high wind.

The Father is one God. His spirit is the rumination of his power that acts through the world and through all whom it rests upon or fills within.

Jesus is a human being whom the spirit tested on and filled entirely. The scriptures puts it like this:

• “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good…” (Acts 10:38)

And God had prophesied saying:

• “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.” (Isaiah 42;1)

You will acknowledge that the spirit is the possession of God. It is not ‘another Person’ in God else the scriptures could not say:

• “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ… “ (1 Cor 8:6)
• “You were shown these things so that you would know that the YHWH (The Father) is God; there is no other besides Him.” (Deut 4:35)

 

[wellwisher]

In Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus lays out a model prayer (a petition) that godly men should follow.

It is not meant to be repeated vainly nor repetitively (‘as heathens do’ verse 7)

In the model prayer, Jesus projects all things towards the Father:

• ‘Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’

Jesus infers the name of the Father be kept ‘Hallowed’ (Sacred), and that all things belong to the Father; that the kingdom is HIS. Also that it is desired that HIS Will be done by mankind just as it is done by the holy angels of Heaven.

There is an order to the prayer (which I won’t go into here) which culminates in Jesus again glorifying the Father:

• ‘For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’

Jesus indicates that the prayer must be rubber stamps with an ‘Amen’, which means that it is a true, honest, venerable, unselfish, heartfelt prayer.

But if we are to pray to the Father (and there is no indication of anyone else to pray to) how is it that many people say that we should pray to JESUS?

Added to that, the very next verse after the model prayer, Jesus says that we should forgive the trespasses of men (obviously with caution and regard to judicial systems!!) so that the FATHER will forgive us (as mentioned in the model prayer). The outcome is that forgiveness comes from the FATHER or ourselves, as in men can forgive men, and the Father can forgive men.
Not only that but Jesus says at another time that it is given to the son of man to forgive sins.

But many people say that only the Father can forgive sins…?

I see a disparity between certain sects of Christianity and what the scriptures say. In the snapshot above, it is clear that Jesus does not call himself ‘God’ (aka: the Father) but rather, he attributes all things to the God.

How can these anomalies be sorted out?

When I was young and I was taught the Our Father in Sunday school; 1960's, the last line of the current prayer, was not part of Our Father; For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’, was added later I my life.

The prayer used to end in "Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, Amen". The current last line was added more recently.

I always wondered about the original closing line; lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, since it seemed to suggest that the God being prayed to, was also a potential source of temptation. If he wasn't, why would you ask him not to lead you that way?

That made more sense for Satan. Satan was connected to law and the tree of knowledge of good and evil, with prohibitions a type of law that could create temptation. The alcohol prohibition was a law that created temptation to drink; speak easy, and helped the black market to grow. The violence and darkness went down when the law was repealed.

This temptation request, was retained, but pushed back more toward the middle of the prayer and replaced by a new closing line, that was more like the future image of Jesus in Revelations. For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’. This ending is now more awe inspiring, instead of a source of questioning.

When Jesus gave his disciples the Prayer, Satan was still in charge as the Lord of the Earth. Satan even offered Jesus all the power and kingdoms of the world, since he had that authority. This does not change, until Satan is thrown from Heaven in Revelations. Then there is a transitional period into a new chain of command. The adding of the new final line seems to reflect the changing of the guard.

 

[Soapy]

I'm glad you quoted this passage.

Jesus does not say, the Father is not in me. He asks, Why do you call me good? We know that by 'good' he must mean 'absolutely good' because he applies this 'good' only to God.

If you think Jesus was only relatively good, then Jesus is not God, and not able to save.

God has granted the power to save to Jesus. But remember that SAVING MANKIND requires mankind to:

1. PROFESS THEIR SIN TO THE FATHER
2. Plead for forgiveness FROM THE FATHER
3. Pledge in honesty God to not sin (otherwise go again up to 70 times seventy times seventy times to clause 1)

The SALVATION that Jesus brought was TWO FOLD:

The first was not a ‘PERSONAL MAN’s SALVATION’. It was the SALVATION from the GREAT SIN that ADAM brought… A Sin that meant DEATH TO ALL MANKIND NO MATTER WHETHER THEY SINNED OR NOT!’.

The second WAS a personal salvation by believing in the one SENT BY THE FATHER (that is, as jesus says many times: ‘Believe in me and that the father sent me’). Believing that God sent Jesus means believing the word of God brought to mankind by Jesus:

• “[Father],… This means eternal life, that they should believe in YOU: The Only True God, and in Jesus Christ WHOM YOU SENT!’

We were not each personally responsible for the sin of Adam so we personally could not beg forgiveness from God. Absolution from a sin can come only from the person who was sinned AGAINST. In that case Adam sinned against God and that sin passed down to each and everyone in humanity. But Adam has died and could no longer regress his sin.

Now that Jesus died to remove that great sin, we now live or die by OUR OWN SINS:

• “Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life.” (1 Cor 15:22)
• “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—… Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come…. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man [Adam], how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!… For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man [Adam], how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!“ (Romans 5: 12…17)

If you think Jesus is perfectly good, then you agree with trinitarians, who see the Father in the Son.

I do not, nor ever have, agreed with anyone that Jesus is God.

Jesus states many times that the father is in him. This means that he does the Will of the Father. And it is true that the Father is in Jesus BY MEANS OF THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER.

Jesus PRAYS to the Father that he would desire that the Father ALSO be in the apostles. According to you, then, Jesus is desiring that the apostles also be GOD! Does that make sense?:

• “Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” (John 17:21)

The third part of the trinitarian understanding of God's redemption of mankind, takes place through the Holy Spirit. This does not mean that each individual within the body of Christ has the fulness of the measure given to Christ, but that the Church as a whole receives the full measure.

What are you talking about. What had that got to do with the discussion here?

IMO, if a person is not 'born again' of the Holy Spirit, they cannot claim to be a part of the body of Christ.

Again, what are you talking about. Are you chatting with someone else and posted in the wrong thread reply?

 

[Elihoenai]

Highly unlikely..The religious texts were compiled by different religious communities into various official collections.

Many people think that the Bible is inerrant. It relies on the belief that God has "preserved it" by not allowing any of its numerous authors to be wrong about anything.
It's a big ask..

The Holy Scriptures/Bible is Perfect and Inerrant because Elohim/God has made it so using Men as Vessels. Elohim/God created a Perfect and Inerrant Book in the Holy Scriptures/Bible to teach Men the Way of Salvation. I certainly don't expect a Muslim to believe the aforementioned statements especially when the 2.2 Billion of Christians in Christendom Don't Really believe it.


@muhammad_isa Don't you believe that Elohim/God created a Perfect and Inerrant book in the Koran?

 

[Elihoenai]

The Bible scriptures - as it is now - is not totally inerrant in all places. This is because the text written has been translated by groups that profess to a trinitarian mindset. In carrying out the translation and interpretation of the translations from Hebrew to Latin, Greek to Latin, and Latin to English (or whichever modern language), many parts that did not confer on Jesus Christ a Deity element, were modified to make it seem so.

The translators were often ignorant of the act because they were told that a certain text didn’t adhere to the trinity belief. In those times people were not free to think what they liked. If they did not confirm then they would be punished severely or even killed. Even a small thing as not attending church on a Sunday could get you labelled as ungodly…

And, since in many times the ordinary person was not able to read, the preacher, priest, etc, could read and tell the anything they liked - how could the common person know it was falsified.

BUT God is not simple! And Satan is not sleeping!!

God knows that the scriptures would be made errant over time. He madd if known to the son, Jesus, who mentions strongly that anyone who does alter the scriptures would suffer badly at the judgement seat.

So we are aware that there will be discrepancies in the scriptures. But God has provided means to rectify the errors in the similar manner to how man can rectify errors in damaged data …

After-all, if man can identify and rectify errors in his data, is man greater than God?

O ye of little faith!


Elohim/God is in charge of Creating and Disseminating his Holy Word through his Holy Book the Holy Scriptures/Bible. Elohim/God used Empty Vessels to Create and Preserve the Holy Scriptures/Bible to give Men a Chance at Salvation.


Having said the above, the Devil/Satan, far from sleeping, is busy 24/7 and not all Translations are Equal.


@Soapy Is it correct to say that you don't believe in the Trinity? If yes, why don't you believe in the Trinity?

 

[Soapy]

When I was young and I was taught the Our Father in Sunday school; 1960's, the last line of the current prayer, was not part of Our Father; For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’, was added later I my life.

The prayer used to end in "Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, Amen". The current last line was added more recently.

I always wondered about the original closing line; lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, since it seemed to suggest that the God being prayed to, was also a potential source of temptation. If he wasn't, why would you ask him not to lead you that way?

That made more sense for Satan. Satan was connected to law and the tree of knowledge of good and evil, with prohibitions a type of law that could create temptation. The alcohol prohibition was a law that created temptation to drink; speak easy, and helped the black market to grow. The violence and darkness went down when the law was repealed.

This temptation request, was retained, but pushed back more toward the middle of the prayer and replaced by a new closing line, that was more like the future image of Jesus in Revelations. For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’. This ending is now more awe inspiring, instead of a source of questioning.

When Jesus gave his disciples the Prayer, Satan was still in charge as the Lord of the Earth. Satan even offered Jesus all the power and kingdoms of the world, since he had that authority. This does not change, until Satan is thrown from Heaven in Revelations. Then there is a transitional period into a new chain of command. The adding of the new final line seems to reflect the changing of the guard.

The proper words are suggestive of:

• ‘Do not TESTS US too harshly’

God does not TEMPT anyone… but he will TEST us. That is right and proper: No one teaches, trains, educates, builds, constructs, designs, creates, … WITHOUT TESTING that which is set out as such.

But a good teacher DOES NOT TEMPT his creation - Temptation is destructive.

Testing STOPS SHORT of the destructive aspect.

When a person is young, and when you are dealing with dictation that appears unsound, it is difficult to raise it as an issue to adults who are already indoctrinated. Moreover, since trinity attempts to claim what God did not say, they will alter the scriptures to make it sound like what they desire - you won’t know and you will be made to feel bad if you bring the wrongness to mind.

You raised a crucial issue as to why such an obvious error as ‘Do not lead us into temptation’ has not be corrected. Bible translators well know the verse:

• “When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;” (James 1:13)

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Don't you believe that Elohim/God created a Perfect and Inerrant book in the Koran?

I think that the Qur'an revealed in classic Arabic is inerrant, yes.
However, there are many translations and tafsir that are not.

The Bible has many different translations into English to start with, let alone many ancient texts that are hard to date.
There are so many men and factors involved in the belief that the Bible is perfect.
I'm glad that I don't have to rely on them.

 

[Elihoenai]

I think that the Qur'an revealed in classic Arabic is inerrant, yes.
However, there are many translations and tafsir that are not.

The Bible has many different translations into English to start with, let alone many ancient texts that are hard to date.
There are so many men and factors involved in the belief that the Bible is perfect.
I'm glad that I don't have to rely on them.

Therefore, the Quran/Koran has a Version or Versions that is Inerrant because it is Elohim's/God's Creation.


Elohim/God is Not limited by language and translates Inerrantly for the particular People/Culture with the exact same meaning.


Elohim/God Created All the Religions and Wrote All the Holy Books for the Religions.


Elohim's/God's instrument the Devil/Satan is Devotedly Very Busy Falsifying Religions, Interpretations and Translations.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Elohim's/God's instrument the Devil/Satan is Devotedly Very Busy Falsifying Religions, Interpretations and Translations.

Yes.
We all rely on God to guide us to a straight path.

None of us are perfect .. we are all sinners.
Those who are sincere and seek, will find.
A spiritual journey that is dependent on the heart.