The Lord's Prayer...What are we Praying For?

[Marcion]

It needs to be remembered Jesus’s audience was almost exclusively Jewish and they understood Him to be the Messiah promised in Jewish scripture. There was an important political aspect too in that the Jews were unhappy with Roman rule and were expecting a Messianic Figure like King David in the Old Testament who would free them from the yoke of Roman oppression. Unlike Buddha He didn’t teach people on the Indian subcontinent. However both Jesus and Buddha used parables or allegorical stories. Within such stories are Teachings that are more universal and tantric.

It appears then that you see the Christian narrative gopels as history like orthodox Christians tend to do.
I do not see it that way. These gospels stories are largely mythical projections meant to teach Christians (some of them of a previouly Jewish background) a specific version of Christianity.
Tantra is not limited to the Indian subcontinent but can be found all around the world's many different cultures where people have discovered that spiritual development can only be found within (not without or by using extrovertive religious practices).

You can learn to see the difference between the original Tantric text and the added texts by reading and studying Q-lite and comparing it with the surrounding texts of Christian origin. You will also notice that each Christian evangelist had his own peculiar way of adapting the Q-lite sayings into his own narrative story.
Of course if you don't have too much knowledge of Tantra you will be unable to clearly see the distinctions and perhaps be tempted to ask the same questions repeatedly without adequately grasping the meaning of the answers.

 

[pearl]

Instead of any memorized prayers, then one's own words from one's heart, in Jesus' name is what God wants.

If during public worship everyone prayed their own words it would lead to distraction and confusion. There is no reason why a memorized prayer cannot be from ones heart. There is absolutely no reason why one may not address 'Our Mother who art in heaven', but the liturgy would not be the place for that.

 

[2ndpillar]

I wonder why did you stop at Luke 17:19-21 and did Not continue with Luke 19:11-15 ______
Jesus was in the midst among those hate filled Pharisees - Luke 17:20-21
Whose hearts were 'filled within' with what Jesus said at Mark 7:20-23.
It is Not until Luke 17:22 (after Jesus concludes what he says to the Pharisees) then Jesus addresses his disciples.
Then, Jesus is addressing his disciples, and notice what he says about the kingdom appearing at Luke 19:11 B.[/QUOTE]

If you were trying to form a coherent statement, I think you have failed.

 

[Deeje]

I sincerely believe were he to return today as a man in their midst in Israel they would do the same. Call him names, etc...
And in America, due to all the wolves in the pulpit over the years, and the real loon cultists that died after killing their flock (Jim Jones), he'd be accused of having a god complex, being a cult leader, or institutionalized due to strong delusions.

The truth has been so overshadowed by those in allegiance to the lord of this world that our eyes are numb to the shining of the light.

Amen to that.

( 2 Cor 4:3-4)

That's true.
However, remember too, our souls are from God. "Have I not told you ye are God's". God knew his own before the foundation of the world. It is an illusion we are separate.
That's why Jesus said, I stand at the door and knock.
The closed door of our own consciousness and awareness of that which empowers our spirits that are encased in this flesh.

Hmmm, looks like a discussion about the meaning of the words "soul" and "spirit" are in order. Later perhaps...

Psalm 82:6 that was quoted by Jesus in John 10:34-35, was directed at the judges appointed in Israel who had divine authority.
The word "god" in Hebrew (as you may know) is "El" which according to Strongs, means....

1. "god, god-like one, mighty one
   1. mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
   2. angels
   3. god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
   4. God, the one true God, Jehovah
2. mighty things in nature
3. strength, power"

This is a word with a very broad meaning, so context is needed. The context here is that this verse is not applied to just anyone. It is applied in the sense that those judges wielded divinely appointed power in Israel.
Angels are also called "gods" in the sense that they are powerful "mighty ones". Jesus is "a god" in this sense as well, but he is not THE God.

I think the scripture speaks for God himself.
There is no thing that is not of the creator. Yeshua Emmanuel was begat upon Mary by the holy spirit that is God.
Yeshua was brought forth (begat), not created.

If one does not have an indoctrinated trinitarian mindset, you will find no trinity in the Bible. No other "Abrahamic" faith believes that God is a trinity....only Christendom. The Jews did not have a three headed God...he was a singular entity with one name.

Deuteronomy 6:4 in the Tanach reads....
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. " דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:

In the Hebrew text, the tetragrammaton appears twice, and should read...."Hear O Israel, Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one ."

So, as a Jew, the trinity was not something Jesus taught, nor was equality with God something he ever claimed.

24 other verses.

I will tackle these in a separate post because I believe that they are important.

No one comes to the Father but through me.

Yes, no one can come to the Father, except through Jesus. Did you never wonder that if Jesus is the Mediator between God and men, (1 Timothy 2:5) if Jesus is God, why do we not need a mediator between us and him?

It has always been my presumption until reading your remarks.
Then I had to research it.
Why Isn’t the Book of Daniel Part of the Prophets?
Source Chabad:
Why Isn’t the Book of Daniel Part of the Prophets? - The difference between divine inspiration and prophecy

It doesn't really matter what the reason is, it takes nothing away from Daniel as a very important herald of future events. We are living his prophesy.

We can postulate as we like. What the word means now and has through the centuries is what counts. And, the root of his teachings are still here. With over 2 billion people holding to them faithfully and by God's grace.

According to Jesus himself, at the judgment, he is going to dismiss "many" who thought that they were 'good Christians'....yet when they offer him their excuses for why they had failed to do the will of the Father in amongst all their 'prophesying, expelling of demons and other powerful works', he declares that he "never knew" them. "Never" means "not ever". So from their beginnings (from the birth of Christendom) Jesus has never recognized those who claim him as their "Lord". Its a sobering thought, isn't it? What does 'doing the will of the Father' entail then, if all these got it wrong?

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.
I defer to Yeshua when he said numerous times, he was God. As in, when you have seen me you have seen the Father. And, I and the Father are one.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I will address these and the other pro-trinitarian verses in another post.

I have studied. Are you aware that the Hebrews were polytheists at one time?

Are you aware that this is the reason why God exiled them in Babylon? I am always amazed when people tell me this. Its as if they are oblivious to Israel's terrible track record of sticking to true worship. It is not evidence that Israel was polytheistic (or henotheistic) it is evidence that they were disobedient.
Even Solomon, the wisest man in Israel's history, fell to worshipping Chemosh the God of Moab, because of his many foreign wives. It was part of God's law not to marry unbelievers. Solomon married hundreds of them. His wisdom didn't save him, but his obedience would have.

The study is like an artichoke. The more layers one uncovers with their zeal to learn and reach the truth, the more they find that makes them seek ever more strongly.

Yes, I love peeling back the layers. But when all the layers form one cohesive truth, that is when there are no contradictions.
Like a big jigsaw puzzle with thousands of pieces, there isn't a space where nothing fits.

Another novel (or two) to follow....

 

[Deeje]

I defer to Yeshua when he said numerous times, he was God. As in, when you have seen me you have seen the Father. And, I and the Father are one.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

24 other verses.

OK, lets tackle these one at a time....Are you using the KJV or similar? If you are, can I ask why? I find the archaic language creates real confusion; keep in mind that the purpose of a translation is to make clear what should be understood in the language we use. We have not used that language for centuries. So a modern translation is more useful as scholars are now understanding languages so much better.
If you don't mind, I will use the ESV......? for no particular reason.

John 14:9...."Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

John 5:19..."So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise."
So like Father, like son.

John 10:30..."I and the Father are one.”

John 17:21..."that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me."
Does this sound like it is promoting the idea that Jesus and his Father are one person, or simply one in unity of thought and purpose?

Next verse....John 17: 22..."The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one".
Are we all part of the trinity?

Philippians 2:5-6..."You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to."
That is a very bad translation. This is not what it says at all.
"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped". (or literally "something to be seized", according to Strongs) Mistranslating that verse completely alters its meaning. It doesn't say that he was God, but that he existed in God's "form". What form does God have? He is a spirit. (John 4:24) Jesus was also a spirit in heaven before coming to live as a human on earth. He never placed himself on equal footing with his Father...ever.

Colossians 2:9-10...."For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority." Some translations use the word "Godhead" in this verse, but this word is only used once in the NT. So what is "the fullness of deity"? It is interesting that both Weymouth and An American Translation render the passage, “the fullness of God’s nature.”

John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Who said he claimed to be God? It wasn't Jesus; He said that he was "the son of God". The Jews were trying to get a charge of blasphemy against him so that they would have grounds to have him executed. Read the whole passage. (John 10:31-36)

John 5:18...."This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."

Same accusation by the same people, for the same reason.

John 1:1 has been fully explained already.

John 1:14...."And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Here again, it is the Word who became flesh, not "THE God". The Word was a divine mighty one (theos) but he was "the son of God" as he said he was.

John 1:18..."No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."

Explained already.

Romans 10:13...."For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Paul is quoting the Tanach at Joel 3:5 (or Joel 2:32 in our translations) which says..."And it shall come to pass that whoever shall call in the name of the Lord shall be delivered". The tetragrammaton is in that verse....וְהָיָ֗ה כֹּ֧ל אֲשֶׁר־יִקְרָ֛א בְּשֵׁ֥ם יְהֹוָ֖ה יִמָּלֵ֑ט כִּ֠י
So "the Lord" is Yahweh, not Jesus.

John 8:57-58 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

This is not Jesus answering a question about his deity....the Jews were asking about his age. He said that he existed before Abraham was born.
The word he used was "eimi" which means ..."to be, to exist, to happen, to be present". So if you refer to the Tanach again, you will see that God's name never meant "I AM" in the first place.
From the Tanach...."God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

John 10:58 has no connection whatsoever with Exodus 3:14. Jesus often said "I am" but not once did it ever mean that he was God.

 

[Deeje]

Continued.....

Revelation 1:17-18...." When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades."

Jesus was indeed “the First” human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Colossians 1:18) Moreover, he is “the Last” to be so resurrected by Yahweh personally. All future resurrection is performed by the son. (John 5:28-29)

Matthew 28:8-9...."Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

The magi did not come to "worship" Jesus as a god, but to do "obeisance" to him as a newborn king. The word "pro·sky·neʹo" in Greek can mean worship or obeisance according to context. Since the magi wanted to honor a new king, it cannot rightly be rendered "worship".

Acts 7:59-60...."And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

What do the preceding verses indicate about the situation? Reading from verse 55...."But he, [Stephen] full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him. 58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Stephen was not praying, but seeing his beloved Lord in front of his eyes by means of a heavenly vision, he called out to him, knowing that they were going to take his life. He was aware that Jesus was going to resurrect him to heaven as one of his anointed "joint heirs", but receiving his "spirit" simply meant that all prospects for his future life in heaven, now rested with Jesus.

Did the account say that Stephen went immediately to heaven? No! It simply says he fell asleep....another way of saying that he died.
Whom did Stephen see in heaven? A triune god? Or did he simply see the Father, and his son standing at God's right hand? No one was at God's left hand. No one ever is.

Matthew 28:19...."Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Does the Bible speak of the Father and his son as well as the holy spirit? Does it ever say that they are all one God? Or does it give a certain vital role to each individually and teach us to understand the place that each has in a Christian's life?

2 Corinthians 13:14..."The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

Same thing. This is not describing a trinity....it is declaring that we need to have the activity of all three if we are to serve the Father successfully.

Paul was in no doubt who was God....he said...."For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) Jesus was his "Lord" but not his God.

Jesus said in prayer to his Father..."And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3)
Again, there is one true God, the Father and one whom he sent. Holy spirit doesn't even get a mention in either verse.

John 20:27-28...."Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Since Jesus never once claimed to be God but was seen as a divine mighty one by his disciples, Thomas' exclamation does not imply that he thought Jesus was God Almighty. I have seen people exclaim "Oh my God!" when seeing a house or a car!

2 Peter 1:1...."Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ."

This is Greek grammar being wrongly translated.....In Greek, the phrasing is different....from the Interlinear.....

Simon Πέτρος Peter δοῦλος slave καὶ and ἀπόστολος apostle Ἰησοῦ of Jesus Χριστοῦ Christ τοῖς to the (ones) ἰσότιμον equally precious ἡμῖν to us λαχοῦσιν having obtained (by lot) πίστιν faith ἐν in δικαιοσύνῃ righteousness τοῦ of the θεοῦ God ἡμῶν of us καὶ and σωτῆρος of Savior Ἰησοῦ Jesus Χριστοῦ· Christ;"

This is not calling Jesus both God and Savior, but is speaking literally about "the God of us, AND the Savior of us"....both God and Christ.

 

[2ndpillar]

According to Jesus himself, at the judgment, he is going to dismiss "many" who thought that they were 'good Christians'....yet when they offer him their excuses for why they had failed to do the will of the Father in amongst all their 'prophesying, expelling of demons and other powerful works', he declares that he "never knew" them. "Never" means "not ever". So from their beginnings (from the birth of Christendom) Jesus has never recognized those who claim him as their "Lord". Its a sobering thought, isn't it? What does 'doing the will of the Father' entail then, if all these got it wrong?

You forgot to mention why Yeshua said I "never knew you" (Matthew 7:22), which was because they "practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:23). It is probably hard for someone who practices lawlessness to quote that verse, and yet, apparently think they are "doing the will of God". Would that be double mindedness, or hypocrisy, or just multiplying words (Proverbs 10:19)?


New American Standard Bible Proverbs 10:19)
When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.

 

[2ndpillar]

Yes, I love peeling back the layers. But when all the layers form one cohesive truth, that is when there are no contradictions.
Like a big jigsaw puzzle with thousands of pieces, there isn't a space where nothing fits.

Another novel (or two) to follow

You might want to switch to decaffeinated. That way, when that first piece passes you, you might be able to grab onto it.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Continued.....

Revelation 1:17-18...." When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades."

Jesus was indeed “the First” human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Colossians 1:18) Moreover, he is “the Last” to be so resurrected by Yahweh personally. All future resurrection is performed by the son. (John 5:28-29)

Matthew 28:8-9...."Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

The magi did not come to "worship" Jesus as a god, but to do "obeisance" to him as a newborn king. The word "pro·sky·neʹo" in Greek can mean worship or obeisance according to context. Since the magi wanted to honor a new king, it cannot rightly be rendered "worship".

Acts 7:59-60...."And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

What do the preceding verses indicate about the situation? Reading from verse ...."But he, [Stephen] full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him. 58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Stephen was not praying, but seeing his beloved Lord in front of his eyes by means of a heavenly vision, he called out to him, knowing that they were going to take his life. He was aware that Jesus was going to resurrect him to heaven as one of his anointed "joint heirs", but receiving his "spirit" simply meant that all prospects for his future life in heaven, now rested with Jesus.

Did the account say that Stephen went immediately to heaven? No! It simply says he fell asleep....another way of saying that he died.
Whom did Stephen see in heaven? A triune god? Or did he simply see the Father, and his son standing at God's right hand? No one was at God's left hand. No one ever is.

Matthew 28:19...."Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Does the Bible speak of the Father and his son as well as the holy spirit? Does it ever say that they are all one God? Or does it give a certain vital role to each individually and teach us to understand the place that each has in a Christian's life?

2 Corinthians 13:14..."The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

Same thing. This is not describing a trinity....it is declaring that we need to have the activity of all three if we are to serve the Father successfully.

Paul was in no doubt who was God....he said...."For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) Jesus was his "Lord" but not his God.

Jesus said in prayer to his Father..."And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3)
Again, there is one true God, the Father and one whom he sent. Holy spirit doesn't even get a mention in either verse.

John 20:27-28...."Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Since Jesus never once claimed to be God but was seen as a divine mighty one by his disciples, Thomas' exclamation does not imply that he thought Jesus was God Almighty. I have seen people exclaim "Oh my God!" when seeing a house or a car!

2 Peter 1:1...."Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ."

This is Greek grammar being wrongly translated.....In Greek, the phrasing is different....from the Interlinear.....

Simon Πέτρος Peter δοῦλος slave καὶ and ἀπόστολος apostle Ἰησοῦ of Jesus Χριστοῦ Christ τοῖς to the (ones) ἰσότιμον equally precious ἡμῖν to us λαχοῦσιν having obtained (by lot) πίστιν faith ἐν in δικαιοσύνῃ righteousness τοῦ of the θεοῦ God ἡμῶν of us καὶ and σωτῆρος of Savior Ἰησοῦ Jesus Χριστοῦ· Christ;"

This is not calling Jesus both God and Savior, but is speaking literally about "the God of us, AND the Savior of us"....both God and Christ.

Thank you for asking. I will typically go to the Mounce version in most cases in discussions of this nature.
I appreciate your post and concern. I don't think we'll see things the same way however.
Perhaps that is as God wills. The Bible, like the connection of the faithful to the Father, is a relationship. I think the holy spirit of God leads us to understand hat God knows we need at the time we need it when we seek council through his word.

I appreciate your sharing your studies with me. They are a blessing.

 

[Deeje]

You forgot to mention why Yeshua said I "never knew you" (Matthew 7:22), which was because they "practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:23). It is probably hard for someone who practices lawlessness to quote that verse, and yet, apparently think they are "doing the will of God". Would that be double mindedness, or hypocrisy, or just multiplying words (Proverbs 10:19)?

The "lawlessness" is a failure to obey the teachings of the Christ.
To fail to "do" what Jesus commanded, whilst offering excuses for why they don't. Be careful about who you accuse of this lawlessness as we are warned that the same judgment will come upon ourselves.

New American Standard Bible Proverbs 10:19)
When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.

I suppose it depends on the truthfulness of the words.

Anyone who asks me a question, or who gives me a scriptural challenge, is going to get details. I cannot know a little about God, his Christ, or scripture. I also don't believe that I can be a lone Christian, devoid of a brotherhood, because God has never had 'lone rangers'. What makes you more believable that any others who have manufactured their own religion?

I have a brotherhood, 8.5 million strong, who live in all nations on earth and who all believe the same things as I do. (1 Corinthians 1:10) You should listen to Paul. He was gifted with holy spirit, like the other apostles.

Your views, as far as I can see, are yours alone. Your conviction may be strong, but if no one else shares it, what do you have except perhaps a personal delusion? (Romans 10:2-3) Belief doesn't make something correct.

So unless we have fellow believers who are all unitedly "doing the will of the Father" in every nation, the easiest person on the planet to fool, is ourselves. We have no one to correct us or to guide us, and we have a fool for a teacher. When has God ever left his people with no one to shepherd them? Who shepherds people like you? Jesus? God? If you all disagree with each other, then who is on the right track? How can you tell?

The Bible is not a short book. How do you explain anything in it without details? It's called teaching......it's what Jesus did.....it's what he taught his disciples to do. (Matthew 28:19-20)
It is posted for people to compare.

Nothing I post on RF has anything to do with my lips. OK?

 

[Deeje]

Thank you for asking. I will typically go to the Mounce version in most cases in discussions of this nature.
I appreciate your post and concern. I don't think we'll see things the same way however.
Perhaps that is as God wills. The Bible, like the connection of the faithful to the Father, is a relationship. I think the holy spirit of God leads us to understand hat God knows we need at the time we need it when we seek council through his word.

I appreciate your sharing your studies with me. They are a blessing.

To each his/her own. We are all on a journey and the road we travel is important. I don't believe that "all roads lead to Rome" so it's a confusing journey for many. But I too have confidence in God's ability to recognise his own, and to lead them to his truth.

I didn't mean to overwhelm you with information but I just wanted to show you that all is not necessarily as it appears.

I wish you well. Thanks for the interchange.

 

[OtherSheep]

What was he telling us to pray for?

Thy Kingdom Come

Rev.12:10-11 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Thy Will Be Done

Mat.7:21 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.
7:24-25 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Deliver Us From Evil

Rev.3:8-10 "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory...

...this ain't:

7:22-23 "Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work anomia."
7:26-27 "And every one that heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

= Miracles... without Rev.3:8 works... is the kingdom of the beast.

 

[2ndpillar]

The "lawlessness" is a failure to obey the teachings of the Christ.
To fail to "do" what Jesus commanded, whilst offering excuses for why they don't. Be careful about who you accuse of this lawlessness as we are warned that the same judgment will come upon ourselves.

Yeshua taught that to enter into life, one must keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17), and he listed the commandments of God. Your Paul based point of view is that one is "cursed" if they keep the law (Galatian 3:10). The actual "new covenant" is when God's Law is written into the hearts of the house of Judah and the house of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-33). At that time they will "walk in my statutes, and be careful to "observe my ordinances (Ezekiel 36:26-27) One is cursed per Deuteronomy 27:2 if they do not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out". You have chosen the false prophet Paul, over the "Word of God". The "Word of God" will prevail (Revelation 19:13-15). The "false prophet", will apparently wind up in the "lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10).
As for judgment, the "same judgment" falls on "everyone", for "everyone will die for his own iniquity" (Jeremiah 31:30), despite what Paul has taught you. Paul is teaching the same "big lie" that the serpent sowed in Genesis 3:4. On the other hand, "Christianity" is teaching unless you believe in the gospel of Paul, you go to hell. They are bringing fire on their own heads. Yeshua taught that you were to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, yet you have embraced it.

1. Deuteronomy 27:26 "Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out." Then all the people shall say, "Amen!"

 

[OtherSheep]

The "lawlessness" is a failure to obey the teachings of the Christ.
[...]
I cannot know a little about God, his Christ, or scripture. I also don't believe that I can be a lone Christian, devoid of a brotherhood, because God has never had 'lone rangers'.

Agreed, re: the first sentence quoted.

But
Numbers isn't always a good thing...
Rev.13:3 "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

And sometimes "a lone" happens...
"And Eliu said, 'I have been very jealous for the Lord Almighty, because the children of Israel have forsaken thee: they have digged down thine altars, and have slain thy prophets with the sword; and I only am left alone, and they seek my life to take it.'"

Jezebel had thousands of prophets then... and many more today...
Rev.2:20 "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols."

 

[OtherSheep]

Yeshua taught that to enter into life, one must keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17), and he listed the commandments of God.

Not even all of the 10 commandments... but "entering in" isn't enough, is it?
New Wine won't go into old bottles without breaking them. The Jews who were said to be following Iesous are called the sons of Satan because they were at the same time plotting to kill Him.
In Matt.5, Iesous says that unless you exceed the Pharisees you can't get into the Kingdom of God. Which, in my way of thinking, is more than the hypocrites who say and don't do. "But I say unto you" is a New Covenant saying which scrubs out the inside of the cup. The OT really doesn't seem to have addressed anything but the whitewashing... except for the prophets who say God actually wanted "mercy not sacrifice"... not the bloody smoking stench of a million critters (see Isaiah first and last chapter, where the delusion Paul talks about seems to be the sacrificial system the Jews had chosen for themselves.)

Paul said he was righteous under the law, which only means he gave up his livestock for sin offerings... and because the man said he couldn't stop himself from being a rebel, he was most likely fresh out of critters when he entered the wilderness of Damascus Road. The big commentaries on the OT say that if you want to commit sins, go do them in another country. In his case, he had special orders from the chief priests... with whom he'd conspired to steal the inheritance of Iesous. For all we know, he cooked up the whole thing with them, from conversion to escape the Matthew 23 prophecy (wink, wink) to subversion of the followers of Iesous. H-E-double-hockey-sticks is sure gonna be crowded with people who have debts to settle with the one who "kept them from entering in."

Paul seems to sometimes get it right in a few points... and then his "much learning makes him mad." Iesous fulfilled the sacrificial system, period. Sabbath never went away, neither did the other commandments Iesous validates by quoting. Did you happen to notice where Paul says to love your neighbor... without ever mentioning the sort of love of God that Iesous tells us about? It's almost like he seriously thought (as in Romans 7) that the God of Sinai died, and that Iesous is a different God entirely... which, sadly, is the same thing that many people think when they see only the "kill 'em all" parts... which I insist have nothing to do with "thou shalt not kill" or "pray for your enemy." And the outright covetousness which drives the conquest, along with the theft and murder, are also the works of some scribe, IMO.

 

[2ndpillar]

In Matt.5, Iesous says that unless you exceed the Pharisees you can't get into the Kingdom of God. Which, in my way of thinking, is more than the hypocrites who say and don't do. "But I say unto you" is a New Covenant saying which scrubs out the inside of the cup. The OT really doesn't seem to have addressed anything but the whitewashing... except for the prophets who say God actually wanted "mercy not sacrifice"... not the bloody smoking stench of a million critters (see Isaiah first and last chapter, where the delusion Paul talks about seems to be the sacrificial system the Jews had chosen for themselves.)

Around my neighborhood, the smoke of the barbeques is thought to be a pleasant aroma. I think the Levites will bleed the sacrifice before adding the sacrifice to the fire.(Malachi 3:3) But, you are right, one's righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, and one must not even look at a women with lust, etc.. The great "Christian", ex president Jimmy Carter, confessed that he couldn't meet that standard. Well, I hate to say it, but apparently neither can his brother and sister "Christians". One has to have a new wine skin to hold the Spirit of God, or else the old one will burst. No problem when there is no Spirit of God present. except without the Spirit of God, what you have is the walking dead, hoping to be raptured. There will be a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth before the "Christians" find out that it is the "tares" who are taken up/gathered "first" (Matthew 13:30)

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

To each his/her own. We are all on a journey and the road we travel is important. I don't believe that "all roads lead to Rome" so it's a confusing journey for many. But I too have confidence in God's ability to recognise his own, and to lead them to his truth.

I didn't mean to overwhelm you with information but I just wanted to show you that all is not necessarily as it appears.

I wish you well. Thanks for the interchange.

And thank you.
You didn't overwhelm in the least. I arrived at the realization God speaks to his children through his words as one would a mortal child when one is the parent. A relationship message.
It isn't a cookie cutter faith we are members of. The church is the body of faithful in the body of Christ. We are that which comprise the body.
I believe each one of us hears from God in a manner he intends so as to continue to guide our steps.

Thank you as well for sharing your wealth of knowledge.
God bless and keep you.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I might could understand saying this prayer one time but when people repeat it 20 or 30 times I think it becomes meaningless repetition. Di they think God is hard of hearing and cannot hear them the first time? What would your best friend think if you called him on the phone and repeated something 20 or 30 times? He would probably think you went crazy and I wonder if God thinks people who repeat the same thing many times are crazy.

It kind of reminds me of hearing on the radio the daily rosary.

 

[Deeje]

Let's take this argument apart.....scripturally.

Yeshua taught that to enter into life, one must keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17), and he listed the commandments of God.

Matthew 19:17...."If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Who was Jesus talking to? Was this person a Jew, under law? Was the old covenant still in operation? Yes, yes and yes.
So obviously Jesus is going to tell a Jew to keep the law. Nothing unusual there.

Your Paul based point of view is that one is "cursed" if they keep the law (Galatian 3:10).

My Paul? I didn't choose him, Jesus did.

Galatians 3:10...."For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

Was the Law a curse to Jews....? It most certainly was, but why? It was a perfect law given to imperfect people....not one of them could keep all of it. Paul was quoting Deuteronomy 27:26 which says....
"Cursed be anyone who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’"
So those who could not keep all of the law were "cursed". Was Paul telling them something that was not written in their scripture? (Acts 15:10; James 2:10)

Paul went on to say..."Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”. He was quoting Deuteronomy 21:23 which says..."And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, [a timber] 23 his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by God."

So is Paul upholding the Hebrew scriptures? Looks like it to me.

The actual "new covenant" is when God's Law is written into the hearts of the house of Judah and the house of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-33). At that time they will "walk in my statutes, and be careful to "observe my ordinances (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

Jeremiah 31:32-33 says....
"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

When did Jesus institute the "new covenant"? It was on the night before his death. With whom did he make that covenant? With his Jewish disciples. As members of God's chosen nation, they were first in line for the blessings of the Kingdom. This is what God promised them.....

Exodus 19:4-6....
"‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”

Do you see the promise and the conditions? In order to obtain the blessing, they had to obey their God and keep his laws. Did Israel do that? They were serial covenant breakers, so the "new covenant" was never going to be instituted with such a disobedient "stiff-necked" people. Individuals from the Jewish nation could qualify by accepting Jesus as their Messiah, but as a nation, they rejected him. They cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (Matthew 27:25) The old covenant with its laws was no longer in force....the new covenant had only two laws according to Jesus.

What was the pitiful spiritual state of Israel when Jesus walked the earth? (Matthew 23) The religious leaders were negligent shepherds, responsible for many of God's flock becoming "lost". It was to these ones that Jesus was sent, (Matthew 15:24) not to the religious leaders, who were by now incorrigibly wicked and irreformable.

Now, does it seen likely that, if John that Baptist and Jesus himself said clearly that the Pharisees (and therefore all who followed their teachings and example) were deserving of losing their place in God's arrangement, that he was not going to have to go outside of literal Israel to furnish the numbers of those who will rule in his Kingdom? (Matthew 3:7-10; Matthew 23) After all, it was part of God's promise to Abraham that "all the nations" would be blessed by means of his seed.

If John the Baptist said that the axe was already lying at the base of the tree, then a chopping down was coming.

One is cursed per Deuteronomy 27:2 if they do not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out". You have chosen the false prophet Paul, over the "Word of God". The "Word of God" will prevail (Revelation 19:13-15).

You see, this is where you mess everything up. This is not talking about Paul....what makes you think it is?
The entire rebellious nation had to uphold the Law. None of them could. So Jesus paid with his blood to release them from it. It condemned them every day.
Only if Paul had stuck with that corrupt religious system would he have been cursed along with it. This is something you don't seem to understand.

Christians are no longer under the Law Covenant.
Jesus was asked...."Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:36-40)

The whole of the law was based on these two, he said.

The "false prophet", will apparently wind up in the "lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10).

The false prophet is not Paul. The "false prophet" is an entity that emerges in the time of the end, along with "the image of the wild beast". Revelation is about the future, not the past.

As for judgment, the "same judgment" falls on "everyone", for "everyone will die for his own iniquity" (Jeremiah 31:30), despite what Paul has taught you.

Paul is not my teacher. Jesus is my teacher. Jesus taught Paul. Paul is your hangup. The other apostles had the holy spirit to guide them....so why didn't they reject Paul if he was a false prophet? You don't seem to be able to answer that question. Isn't it obvious?

Paul is teaching the same "big lie" that the serpent sowed in Genesis 3:4. On the other hand, "Christianity" is teaching unless you believe in the gospel of Paul, you go to hell.

Sorry but Christianity teaches no such thing. "Hell" is an invention of the church to scare the pants off its flock and gain control by fear. Paul taught no such thing....neither did Jesus.

They are bringing fire on their own heads. Yeshua taught that you were to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, yet you have embraced it.

Seriously? By what you post, you have your own personal heresy going on all by yourself. Who is there to correct a congregation of one?

Since when did Paul embrace the teachings of the Pharisees after his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus? What he suffered thereafter was more than any of the 12 had to endure. He proved himself worthy of his calling....can you say the same?

Perhaps a little more of what the Bible says in context and less of what you personally want it to say would be in order?

Too many words? I make no apology.

 

[2ndpillar]

Paul is not my teacher. Jesus is my teacher. Jesus taught Paul. Paul is your hangup. The other apostles had the holy spirit to guide them....so why didn't they reject Paul if he was a false prophet? You don't seem to be able to answer that question. Isn't it obvious?

You seem to hear what what you want to hear, and believe Paul, in as much as you think you will be turned from perishable to imperishable in a twinkling of and eye, the same message of the serpent, who stated the "you surely shall not die" (Genesis 3:4) Paul's message of lawlessness was the seed of the tares (Matthew 13:41). Yeshua forbade the "slaves" of the land holder, the disciples, to pull out the tares until harvest, when the tares would be the "first" to be harvested. This was to happen at the "end of the age", when the angels would gather out the tares and burn them (Matthew 13:39-42). We are now at the "end of the age", and the "tares", and their leaders, who have been protected, are now not protected. The only one standing up for Paul, is Paul and his associates, along with some unknown writer of 2 Peter, which is supposedly written by the "worthless shepherd" of Zechariah 11:16-17, Simon Bar Jonas. As for your Matthew 28:19-20, the oldest versions do not have that statement, and "every matter requires the testimony of two or three witnesses" (Matthew 18:16) & (Deut 19:15). Hey, I get it, all who are not written the book of life will be deceived (Revelation 13:8). It is just that this is a forum whereas there are lurkers who may be able to recognize light over darkness. In the end, 10 men of every nation will turn to the Jew, and say God is with you, can we come along. As for the nations/Gentiles, of Jeremiah 30:11, the LORD said, I will destroy completely all the nations where I have scattered you." Jesus taught Paul, according to Paul, which according to John 5:31, makes that witness "not true".