The main problems with the gospel genealogies

[dybmh]

BTW I was just rereading my virgin Mary section is thought this was important to note:
"Like Luke, the Quran says that Mary was visited by the angel, Gabriel, and that Mary was a virgin."

Though of course Isaiah 7:14 wouldn't have originally have said "virgin".

Yup. That fits their theology.

 

[idea]

The main problems with the gospel genealogies is racism.​

Choosing, judging, blessing, or discriminating against people solely based on their genealogy or the family they were born into is evil. Racism is an arbitrary and irrelevant characteristic for evaluating a person's worth or abilities.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Though of course Isaiah 7:14 wouldn't have originally have said "virgin".

"of course"?

In a world awash in Biblical scholarship, I honestly do not understand why you feel qualified to write a book.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The main problems with the gospel genealogies is racism.​

Choosing, judging, blessing, or discriminating against people solely based on their genealogy or the family they were born into is evil. Racism is an arbitrary and irrelevant characteristic for evaluating a person's worth or abilities.

Rubbish.

 

[John D. Brey]

Not if you read the translation from the Masoretic text. It is one of the reasons that Jews, who should understand the Old Testament best, do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. The author of Matthew was rather obviously twisting scripture to support his myth.

I'm having a hard time parsing your statement?

And where is Jesus ever called "Manny"? If one only calls him that because of the prophecy it is a failed prophecy.

A Google search of "Manny" brings up a grip of Hispanic baseball players but nothing in the Tanakh?

Godforbid Jesus ever try out for catcher what with the holes in his hand and what-have-you. Manny Delcarman would likely throw the ball right through Jesus' hand lodging it in the wound in his side.



John

 

[excreationist]

"of course"?

In a world awash in Biblical scholarship, I honestly do not understand why you feel qualified to write a book.

Well I guess you're inviting me to talk some more about my book/ebook....

I'm not sure if there is another book that covers so many topics related to Christmas while only being about 30 pages long. (I've even got maps and that genealogy diagram - and lots of illustrations)

The topics include:

Pointing out that in the story the wise men went to house that a star stopped over: (rather than where a manger was)

Where they worshipped the child Jesus: (rather than a baby)

And a pair of doves were sacrificed to make Mary "clean" after her birth:

About the sacrifice and why it wasn't a lamb:

Leviticus 12 instructed mothers who had recently given birth to sacrifice a lamb as a burnt offering. It says that if she can't afford a lamb, then she should use a dove or small pigeon for the burnt sacrifice. This is what Mary did (Luke 2:24), suggesting she must not have had enough money to buy a lamb.

As far as being qualified goes I thought I did some good research. I also got feedback from pastors. As far as the "prophecies" go, it is about what Christians see as prophecies - even if the original verses weren't intended to be prophecies or were changed. My conclusion is that the stories were mostly not historical.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm having a hard time parsing your statement?

Really? What part? Let me explain further. The mistranslated word was "alma" or young woman, or maiden. It is a bit vague. Meanwhile there was a Hebrew word that clearly meant virgin that the same author used elsewhere. Why didn't he use "berthlulah"? Also the person that the sign was to be for lived at the time of the prophecy. How could it have been a sign for him if the event was to happen hundreds of years in the future?

A Google search of "Manny" brings up a grip of Hispanic baseball players but nothing in the Tanakh?

Godforbid Jesus ever try out for catcher what with the holes in his hand and what-have-you. Manny Delcarman would likely throw the ball right through Jesus' hand lodging it in the wound in his side.



John

So now you are denying your own prophecy. That is odd.

 

[idea]

Rubbish.

So you believe children should be cursed because of their parents?

As in Adam all die. Nothing based on individual works, we're all dead no matter what we do because... our genealogy comes from Adam.

Rather nihilistic.

 

[John D. Brey]

The mistranslated word was "alma" or young woman, or maiden. It is a bit vague. Meanwhile there was a Hebrew word that clearly meant virgin that the same author used elsewhere. Why didn't he use "berthlulah"? Also the person that the sign was to be for lived at the time of the prophecy. How could it have been a sign for him if the event was to happen hundreds of years in the future?

In Psalm 22, David says, My God my God why have you forsaken me. It's repeated again hundreds of years later by a son of David. Prophesy often works that way. Prophesy is oracular, enigmatic, difficult to interpret, twofold, etc..




John

 

[excreationist]

Choosing, judging, blessing, or discriminating against people solely based on their genealogy or the family they were born into is evil. Racism is an arbitrary and irrelevant characteristic for evaluating a person's worth or abilities.

Related verses:
Exodus 20:5-6

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Also in Genesis 9 Noah cursed Canaan and his descendents even though his father, Ham, was the one who misbehaved.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well I guess you're inviting me to talk some more about my book/ebook....

(funny)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So you believe children should be cursed because of their parents?

Your inferential comprehension never ceases to amaze.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In Psalm 22, David says, My God my God why have you forsaken me. It's repeated again hundreds of years later by a son of David. Prophesy often works that way. Prophesy is oracular, enigmatic, difficult to interpret, twofold, etc..




John

But fake writings much more often work that way. It is easy to scour the Bible and show that something was "prophesized " even if it was not. The author of Matthew did that quite often to give his work more authority. But sometimes he screwed up, as he did in the nativity myth that he wrote.

 

[pearl]

The Gospel genealogies are a construction of the author's with the purpose that Jesus is the descendant of Jessie,
Matthew even includes 4 women.

 

[idea]

Related verses:
Exodus 20:5-6

Also in Genesis 9 Noah cursed Canaan and his descendents even though his father, Ham, was the one who misbehaved.

The biblical God is racist and unjust. Not an entity I would respect or worship for sure.

 

[excreationist]

The Gospel genealogies are a construction of the author's with the purpose that Jesus is the descendant of Jessie,
Matthew even includes 4 women.

Yes including Rahab who was a Canaanite prostitute even though in Deuteronomy 20:16-18 God said to kill all of the Canaanites. But Rahab saved some spies by lying (and she also was faithful to the Israelite God).

 

[idea]

"Birthright" is evil, racist, unjust. Racial inequality, supremacy, unjust oppression - starts with birthright and genealogy.

 

[DNB]

The following includes some excerpts from a short book I wrote: (that can be read online for free)

The Genealogies of Jesus

Are the genealogies accurate?

guide4christmas.com

There are a few prophecies the genealogies fulfil (Messiah would be a descendent of Abraham, King David, and governor Zerubbabel and his father Shealtiel) and besides that the genealogies are mostly different and contradictory. I mean they don't even agree which son of David Joseph was descended from or who was the father of Shealtiel or the son of Zerubbabel or the father of Joseph.

View attachment 78958
The prophecies:

More:

To restate what I've said, the two genealogies "prove" that Jesus was the prophesized Messiah because it shows that he fulfilled the prophecies regarding being a descendant of Abraham, King David and Zerubbabel/Shealtiel.

But in John they're also aware of the prophecies but the crowd doesn't think that Jesus fulfilled them....

John 7:41-42 says:

This creationist article brings up another issue:

Jesus genealogies

The genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke are different. In-depth study of Scripture and Jewish methods explains why. Both genealogies explain important facets of the Gospel message.

creation.com

Thank you, this was very informative. A subject matter that I never was entirely clear on, which, as you stated, is a rather enigmatic issue on any level.
I personally ascribed the discrepancies towards authorial intent - each author was selective as to which generations were chosen, for thematic reasons. And this, to me, was a common practice within the Gospels in general, as even chronology fluctuates between each author depending on the overarching focus of each's Gospel.

Thanks again.

 

[DNB]

The biblical God is racist and unjust. Not an entity I would respect or worship for sure.

You're beginning to sound like a piece-of-work yourself.

 

[DNB]

In Psalm 22, David says, My God my God why have you forsaken me. It's repeated again hundreds of years later by a son of David. Prophesy often works that way. Prophesy is oracular, enigmatic, difficult to interpret, twofold, etc..




John

Yes, I entirely agree with all that you said. Especially, the question as to what a pregnant maiden would signify - nothing either noteworthy, peculiar or identifiable.
And, also, that prophecy tends to have both a contemporaneous and a futuristic meaning. Of course, it's best to let qualified men undertake this task, as we have witnessed such recklessness by your typical eisegete, who employ a rather inept connect-the-dots approach to correlating passages.
And, when I say qualified, I mean in general Biblical authors - I deliberately refrain from using inspired for various reasons.