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The Marriage of A'isha and Apologetic Myopia

MD

qualiaphile
There are non-Muslim historians who have written about Islam, as you probably know. Don't you think many of them would talk about A'isha's suffering the effects of child sexual abuse if she indeed suffered them?

In the case of someone like, say, Genghis Khan, we have ample evidence that he was a bloodthirsty, murderous warlord who led mass killings and rape, but when it comes to A'isha's marriage, do we have similar evidence that she showed signs of trauma after marrying Muhammad?

Where do we get the primary accounts of Aisha's life from? The Hadiths? Any other sources outside of them? When were the Hadiths written? Who wrote the Hadiths?
How reliable are these Hadiths? Also would Aisha been able to voice her opinion in that society? I don't think so.

Genghis Khan's story was written on both sides because some of his enemies survived. And because he went all out. Had he conquered a small part of Mongolia, his life would have been largely unknown. Now imagine if some people had written of his life as a small time tribal warlord, two centuries after he died? How much of that would we have even known to be true? Mohammed had conquered part of the Arabian peninsula. The only civilization which might have got a whiff of some of his small tribal conquests were the Persians. And many of their libraries were burned down in the invasion.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Where do we get the primary accounts of Aisha's life from? The Hadiths? Any other sources outside of them? When were the Hadiths written? Who wrote the Hadiths?
How reliable are these Hadiths?

It depends on what you mean by the "primary accounts." If we're talking about the "primary accounts" that most Islamic scholars refer to, then we're talking about saheeh hadiths from al-Bukhari and Muslim in addition to some other accounts that are considered by those scholars to be of lesser authority than the two saheeh hadith books.

Genghis Khan's story was written on both sides because some of his enemies survived. And because we went all out. Had he conquered a part of Mongolia, his life would have been largely unknown. Now imagine if some people had written of his life in a small part of Mongolia, two centuries after he died? How much of that would we have even known? Mohammed had conquered part of the Arabian peninsula. The only civilization which might have got a whiff of some of his small tribal conquests were the Persians. And many of their libraries were burned down in the invasion.

You raise a good point that also brings something to mind: mainstream Islam's strict views against "blasphemy" would basically make it a criminal offense to write negative things about Muhammad or his life. This means that if A'isha showed signs of trauma from child sexual abuse and they weren't recorded in written accounts about her, any non-Muslim historian who dared to write about them would probably be prosecuted for being viewed as slandering Muhammad.

Another question is whether such large-scale obfuscation occurred to the point where all accounts of A'isha's suffering from trauma were obfuscated or lost, though. That almost feels like a conspiracy theory to believe in, although the fervor with which many people defend Muhammad also opens the door to questions about the possibility of such large-scale obfuscation actually having happened.
 

MD

qualiaphile
It depends on what you mean by the "primary accounts." If we're talking about the "primary accounts" that most Islamic scholars refer to, then we're talking about saheeh hadiths from al-Bukhari and Muslim in addition to some other accounts that are considered by those scholars to be of lesser authority than the two saheeh hadith books.

I am aware of al Bukhari. But where did these scholars get their information from? I'm asking this not in a rhetorical sense, but because I don't know. All I know are the Hadiths were written after Mohammed died, centuries after. Written by Muslims who would hold Mohammed in an esteemed light. I mean for all we know half this **** is made up.

You raise a good point that also brings something to mind: mainstream Islam's strict views against "blasphemy" would basically make it a criminal offense to write negative things about Muhammad or his life. This means that if A'isha showed signs of trauma from child sexual abuse and they weren't recorded in written accounts about her, any non-Muslim historian who dared to write about them would probably be prosecuted for being viewed as slandering Muhammad.

Another question is whether such large-scale obfuscation occurred to the point where all accounts of A'isha's suffering from trauma were obfuscated or lost, though. That almost feels like a conspiracy theory to believe in, although the fervor with which many people defend Muhammad also opens the door to questions about the possibility of such large-scale obfuscation actually having happened.

History is filled with obfuscations, wars and genocides. There are cultures and people that don't exist anymore, of which we know very little of. Some of these people and cultures were wiped out through conquests. Heck there were separate human races which were wiped out before civilization by Homo Sapiens.

Islam is no exception. The scientific 'miracles' for example copied from works of Galen and Aristotle, copying the Avesta, Bible and Torah, etc are examples on how the Quran was constructed as a mass brainwashing tool. Salman al Farsi was an ex Zoroastrian priest who was a Mazdakites. Mazdaks were an offshoot of Zoroastrianism and heavily prosecuted. He was basically exiled and then came upon the divinely inspired Mohammed? Seems awfully coincidental to me.

I'm not an anthropologist nor a historian, but if we are going by the works of some dudes who would be heavily partial to Mohammed, then I seriously doubt some things Islamic historians have to say. They're basing their work on very shaky ground here. I could be wrong so please do enlighten me if I am :).
 
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Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
We could say similar things about Zoroaster and his followers.
 

MD

qualiaphile
We could say similar things about Zoroaster and his followers.

We definitely could. I doubt most of the stories of religious figures of history, they're mostly stories and myths. Allegories.

But I look at my religion from a philosophical perspective rather than an eternal truth which must be enforced through law. Do you look at your faith the same ?
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I'm not an anthropologist nor a historian, but if we are going by the works of some dudes who would be heavily partial to Mohammed, then I seriously doubt some things Islamic historians have to say. They're basing their work on very shaky ground here. I could be wrong so please do enlighten me if I am :).

This is pretty much my view.
I don't believe everything I hear about any ancient stories.
Especially not the ages of the characters. Do the people who believe that Aisha "consumated her marriage" at 9 also believe that Jesus survived crucifixion and sired a batch of kids in Kashmir, living to the age of 120?
If not, why not?
I see it as a hypocritical smear on Islam. And I am nobody's Muslim apologist, I don't like religions generally. Islam is about my least favorite. But I can see hypocrisy when it is right in front of my face.
Tom
 
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Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I am aware of al Bukhari. But where did these scholars get their information from? I'm asking this not in a rhetorical sense, but because I don't know. All I know are the Hadiths were written after Mohammed died, centuries after. Written by Muslims who would hold Mohammed in an esteemed light. I mean for all we know half this **** is made up.

Hadiths in general are typically traced back according to narrations. Some of the narrations are based on hearing, too, so that's basically word of mouth. The hadith scholars supposedly have methods to verify the veracity of the narrators and subsequently determine the credibility of each hadith.

I find the whole idea of spread of information based on oral narrations after years to be more than a little unreliable as far as preserving the accuracy of the information goes, but that's my personal opinion. I'm not familiar with the specifics of the process of "investigating" hadiths as much as a hadith scholar.

History is filled with obfuscations, wars and genocides. There are cultures and people that don't exist anymore, of which we know very little of. Some of these people and cultures were wiped out through conquests. Heck there were separate human races which were wiped out before civilization by Homo Sapiens.

Islam is no exception. The scientific 'miracles' for example copied from works of Galen and Aristotle, copying the Avesta, Bible and Torah, etc are examples on how the Quran was constructed as a mass brainwashing tool. Salman al Farsi was an ex Zoroastrian priest who was a Mazdakites. Mazdaks were an offshoot of Zoroastrianism and heavily prosecuted. He was basically exiled and then came upon the divinely inspired Mohammed? Seems awfully coincidental to me.

I'm not an anthropologist nor a historian, but if we are going by the works of some dudes who would be heavily partial to Mohammed, then I seriously doubt some things Islamic historians have to say. They're basing their work on very shaky ground here. I could be wrong so please do enlighten me if I am :).

It's true that history is filled with obfuscations, but Islam is a significant world religion now, and it has many enemies. Many of those enemies would go digging for absolutely any piece of information they could find to show Islam in a bad light (justifiably or not). With all of those attempts, I'm not sure information condemning Islam could be obfuscated or kept a secret so successfully.

I don't think your core argument is wrong here; it's hard for me to be certain about the accuracy of the accounts of Muhammad's life written by people who consider him to be the greatest human in history. It's like some of the Muslim grammarians who argue that there are absolutely no grammatical mistakes in the Qur'an and, when some non-Muslims raise objections to that claim by citing Qur'anic verses that they believe contain such mistakes, the grammarians try to justify the alleged mistakes based on the premise that the Qur'an is a divine, perfect book that can't possibly contain any mistakes, grammatical or otherwise.

That's not to comment on whether or not the Qur'an contains any grammatical mistakes. The point I'm making is that yeah, scholars and experts aren't immune to ad hoc reasoning.
 

MD

qualiaphile
Hadiths in general are typically traced back according to narrations. Some of the narrations are based on hearing, too, so that's basically word of mouth. The hadith scholars supposedly have methods to verify the veracity of the narrators and subsequently determine the credibility of each hadith.

I find the whole idea of spread of information based on oral narrations after years to be more than a little unreliable as far as preserving the accuracy of the information goes, but that's my personal opinion. I'm not familiar with the specifics of the process of "investigating" hadiths as much as a hadith scholar.

Oral traditions and narrations are really doubtful pieces of information. It's one of the reasons Quranists exist, they reject the hadiths because they are based on oral narration rather than divine narration. I can respect them on that.

See the problem with Islam is not the oral narrations. It's that these oral traditions are compiled into laws and rules to be applied for eternity. These oral narrations and stories are the law, the truth and unquestionable. It's one thing if your oral traditions teach you a harmless belief that trees are gods. It's another if it teaches you that the most perfect man who ever lived had sex with a child, and that's okay. And if anyone questions that in an Islamic society, they should be punished.

It's true that history is filled with obfuscations, but Islam is a significant world religion now, and it has many enemies. Many of those enemies would go digging for absolutely any piece of information they could find to show Islam in a bad light (justifiably or not). With all of those attempts, I'm not sure information condemning Islam could be obfuscated or kept a secret so successfully.

I don't think your core argument is wrong here; it's hard for me to be certain about the accuracy of the accounts of Muhammad's life written by people who consider him to be the greatest human in history. It's like some of the Muslim grammarians who argue that there are absolutely no grammatical mistakes in the Qur'an and, when some non-Muslims raise objections to that claim by citing Qur'anic verses that they believe contain such mistakes, the grammarians try to justify the alleged mistakes based on the premise that the Qur'an is a divine, perfect book that can't possibly contain any mistakes, grammatical or otherwise.

That's not to comment on whether or not the Qur'an contains any grammatical mistakes. The point I'm making is that yeah, scholars and experts aren't immune to ad hoc reasoning.

Islam has enemies but it also has very powerful allies. The Saudi govt poured money into buying off embryologists and biologists in the 70s to claim that the Quran is the eternal truth. Most of these embryologists didn't even convert to Islam, but said it anyways. One of them is Keith Moore, a highly renowned scientist whose books are studied in every major medical school today. He said the embryology in the Quran is divine proof, even though it's pretty much Galens work. These claims by these scientists are used today by 'scholars' like Zakir Naik, Nouman Ali Khan, Hamza Tzortzis etc. They are used to prove that the Quran is true, eternal etc. and thus they are promoting fundamentalism. It made me question a lot of academia in general after that, especially non scientific academia. How many ideas in political science and history are guided more by their donors money, than the merits of the idea themselves? And this doesn't apply only to Islam and Saudi, there are other powerful interests which push certain views in academia. Also Islam has the Western Left to readily defend it. Prominent atheists have come out criticizing Islam to be labelled racists or bigots.

You're right, we don't know the details of what happened. But you have to ask yourself, is it moral for a middle aged man to have sex with a child? I say no, it is immoral. Was the child affected? Yes, I believe so. Will we ever know if she was? No. If she wasn't affected by it are you willing to say that not all children who have sex with adults are mentally scarred by it? I think all children who are victims of pedophiles are heavily mind ****ed for life.

In the end the moral judgments we make are truly within.
 
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Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
All cultures in that time period were marrying children, what makes this particular example of the customs of that time so much more important than all the other untold stories of child marriage, and how can you possibly say that Muslims had some particular tendencies this way that all other cultures didn't have also.
 

MD

qualiaphile
All cultures in that time period were marrying children, what makes this particular example of the customs of that time so much more important than all the other untold stories of child marriage, and how can you possibly say that Muslims had some particular tendencies this way that all other cultures didn't have also.

All cultures practiced slavery, is that wrong? All cultures practiced genocides and wars, is that wrong?

I'm not saying Muslims had tendencies. I'm saying that a man who is seen as the most perfect example of humanity by 1.6 billion people for all eternity had sex with a child, and that's seen as okay by most of them. Therein lies the problem.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I see presumptuous people who wish to retroactively enforce morality only put into law in the past 100 years, hell 50 years ago you could marry a 12 yr old in parts of USA, and a lot of people didn't think there was anything wrong with it, next thing you're going to start a thread about how Mohammad and his followers didn't use toilet paper, and didn't have running water, or electricity. Oh wow how intelligent.
 
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Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Oral traditions and narrations are really doubtful pieces of information. It's one of the reasons Quranists exist, they reject the hadiths because they are based on oral narration rather than divine narration. I can respect them on that.

See the problem with Islam is not the oral narrations. It's that these oral traditions are compiled into laws and rules to be applied for eternity. These oral narrations and stories are the law, the truth and unquestionable. It's one thing if your oral traditions teach you a harmless belief that trees are gods. It's another if it teaches you that the most perfect man who ever lived had sex with a child, and that's okay. And if anyone questions that in an Islamic society, they should be punished.

True, and the "most perfect man who ever lived" part is extremely problematic, in my opinion, because if people simply said that Muhammad was a regular man whose life was a collection of "hits and misses," one could make a case that his marriage to A'isha—if we take the account that she was nine or ten years old when the marriage was consummated—couldn't possibly be used to justify child marriages today. But it seems to me that the fact that most Muslims view Muhammad as a perfect example of morality makes it so that things like his marriage to A'isha are just a nail in the coffin for the argument that his actions are meant to be imitated for the rest of the world's existence.

I see it as purely untenable to say that the actions of anyone who lived at any given time period are a divinely inspired instruction manual for the actions of people at all times, much less the actions of someone who lived in a heavily patriarchal, tribalistic culture.

Islam has enemies but it also has very powerful allies. The Saudi govt poured money into buying off embryologists and biologists in the 70s to claim that the Quran is the eternal truth. Most of these embryologists didn't even convert to Islam, but said it anyways. One of them is Keith Moore, a highly renowned scientist whose books are studied in every major medical school today. He said the embryology in the Quran is divine proof, even though it's pretty much Galens work. These claims by these scientists are used today by 'scholars' like Zakir Naik, Nouman Ali Khan etc. They are used to prove that the Quran is true, eternal etc. and thus they are promoting fundamentalism. It made me question a lot of academia in general after that, especially non scientific academia. How many ideas in political science and history are guided more by their donors money, than the merits of the idea themselves? And this doesn't apply only to Islam and Saudi, there are other powerful interests which push certain views in academia. Also Islam has the Western Left to readily defend it. Prominent atheists have come out criticizing Islam to be labelled racists or bigots.

You're right, we don't know the details of what happened. But you have to ask yourself, is it moral for a middle aged man to have sex with a child? I say no, it is immoral. Was the child affected? Yes, I believe so. Will we ever know if she was? No. If she wasn't affected by it are you willing to say that not all children who have sex with adults, mentally scarred by it? I think all children who are victims of pedophiles are heavily mind ****ed for life.

In the end the moral judgments we make are truly within.

What strikes me as the most dangerous thing about people like Zakir Naik is that their demagoguery and misinformation fit many people's preconceived notions, so they gain traction even with many well-meaning, honest people. When a supposed authority on any given scientific matter such as Zaghloul el-Naggar claims that this or that scientific fact was "mentioned in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago," can we really blame the average Joe or Jane for believing him? I largely (but not exclusively) see this as an issue of abuse of academic authority on the part of people like el-Naggar. The problem is that it's generally hard for any of their academic peers to call them out on their claims in most Arab countries, for example, for fear of public backlash or even social or legal persecution due to possible charges of "denying the Qur'an."

I definitely don't think it's moral for a middle-aged man to have sex with a child, but we also have to consider whether these exact terms describe Muhammad's marriage to A'isha given the cultural and historical contexts. I'm a moral objectivist as far as applying the same standards of morality to everywhere in the present world, but when we go back in time, things sometimes become so different due to cultural and historical contexts that we can't be accurate while maintaining a rigorous degree of moral objectivism. I would, however, unhesitatingly view such a marriage in that time period as child sexual abuse if the girl exhibited signs of being traumatized after the marriage, as I've said throughout this thread. Does this take on moral objectivism make sense to you?

About the Western left defending Islam, yes, I have commented before on the tendency of many (but certainly not all) self-identified liberals to engage in Islamic apologetics without knowing many details about the Muslim world or mainstream Islam. If you would like to hear some comments on the issue of what some call the "regressive left," I recommend checking out some of the opinions of Faisal Saeed al-Mutar. Many of his opinions that I have read are to the point, and I find him less prone to engaging in knee-jerk hysterics and hyperbole like, say, Dawkins can be a lot of the time when criticizing religion.

On that note, I've seen many liberals support LGBT rights, for example, while stating with strong confidence that "most Muslims are peaceful." I almost always wonder what they mean by "most Muslims" and "peaceful." Most Muslims where? In the U.S.? In Canada? Or in Middle Eastern countries, in some of which most Muslims are quite staunchly opposed to LGBT rights? And in those liberals' view, does said opposition mean that most Muslims in those countries aren't actually "peaceful"?

It seems to me that if we take the definition of "peaceful" to basically mean "someone who doesn't hold a gun or engage in armed violence" (and yes, I've seen a lot of people define "peaceful" as such), then we have watered down the definition of "peaceful" so much that it has lost a significant portion of its meaning. There are many Muslims who still believe that the legal age of marriage should be as soon as a child reaches puberty. Are those Muslims "peaceful" too, according to the same self-identified liberals who defend mainstream Islam so strongly?

I generally believe that trying to defend mainstream Islam (mainly Sunni Islam as taught by the majority scholarly Sunni view) and stating that most Muslims who practice it are "peaceful" while also defending LGBT rights and sexual freedoms, as two examples, is like trying to have one's cake and eat it too—and that is one gigantic cake to boot.

I would like to note that I'm mainly talking about the version of Islam I'm most familiar with, though, which is mainstream Sunni Islam. I realize that there are many Muslims who practice Islam according to far more moderate views. My critical statements are not aimed at those Muslims.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
All cultures in that time period were marrying children, what makes this particular example of the customs of that time so much more important than all the other untold stories of child marriage, and how can you possibly say that Muslims had some particular tendencies this way that all other cultures didn't have also.

What makes this so much more important is that unlike every single person who lived in that time period and did similar things to Muhammad, he is considered by hundreds of millions of people to be a divinely inspired moral example. Do you think it's unreasonable to view his actions as so much more deserving of scrutiny given that?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I'm pretty sure there are prophets in the Bible that married pre teens or slaves, what's the difference.

Do you wish to present your views in a clear manner as several people have done in this thread, or are you going to use personal attacks like the above instead?

Its pretty presumptuous to retroactively apply modern western values and laws to people 100s or even thousands of years ago, if that's a personal attack, I stand by it.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
i'm pretty sure there are prophets in the Bible that married pre teens or slaves, what's the difference.

Did anyone here say that Christianity is morally superior to Islam or vice versa? Because I didn't.

Its pretty presumptuous to retroactively apply modern western values and laws to people 100s or even thousands of years ago, if that's a personal attack, I stand by it.

Calling the argument presumptuous is different from this:

I see presumputuous xxxx's who [...]
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
What I meant by xxxx's was people, I have edited the comment for your pleasure.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
One thing to consider is that the very fact that the belief that Aisha was nine as of her marriage survived to this day shows that Muslims can and IMO should do better than to accept traditional beliefs uncritically as moral examples to be followed to the letter.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
True, and the "most perfect man who ever lived" part is extremely problematic, in my opinion, because if people simply said that Muhammad was a regular man whose life was a collection of "hits and misses," one could make a case that his marriage to A'isha—if we take the account that she was nine or ten years old when the marriage was consummated—couldn't possibly be used to justify child marriages today. But it seems to me that the fact that most Muslims view Muhammad as a perfect example of morality makes it so that things like his marriage to A'isha are just a nail in the coffin for the argument that his actions are meant to be imitated for the rest of the world's existence.

I see it as purely untenable to say that the actions of anyone who lived at any given time period are a divinely inspired instruction manual for the actions of people at all times, much less the actions of someone who lived in a heavily patriarchal, tribalistic culture.



What strikes me as the most dangerous thing about people like Zakir Naik is that their demagoguery and misinformation fit many people's preconceived notions, so they gain traction even with many well-meaning, honest people. When a supposed authority on any given scientific matter such as Zaghloul el-Naggar claims that this or that scientific fact was "mentioned in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago," can we really blame the average Joe or Jane for believing him? I largely (but not exclusively) see this as an issue of abuse of academic authority on the part of people like el-Naggar. The problem is that it's generally hard for any of their academic peers to call them out on their claims in most Arab countries, for example, for fear of public backlash or even social or legal persecution due to possible charges of "denying the Qur'an."

I definitely don't think it's moral for a middle-aged man to have sex with a child, but we also have to consider whether these exact terms describe Muhammad's marriage to A'isha given the cultural and historical contexts. I'm a moral objectivist as far as applying the same standards of morality to everywhere in the present world, but when we go back in time, things sometimes become so different due to cultural and historical contexts that we can't be accurate while maintaining a rigorous degree of moral objectivism. I would, however, unhesitatingly view such a marriage in that time period as child sexual abuse if the girl exhibited signs of being traumatized after the marriage, as I've said throughout this thread. Does this take on moral objectivism make sense to you?

About the Western left defending Islam, yes, I have commented before on the tendency of many (but certainly not all) self-identified liberals to engage in Islamic apologetics without knowing many details about the Muslim world or mainstream Islam. If you would like to hear some comments on the issue of what some call the "regressive left," I recommend checking out some of the opinions of Faisal Saeed al-Mutar. Many of his opinions that I have read are to the point, and I find him less prone to engaging in knee-jerk hysterics and hyperbole like, say, Dawkins can be a lot of the time when criticizing religion.

On that note, I've seen many liberals support LGBT rights, for example, while stating with strong confidence that "most Muslims are peaceful." I almost always wonder what they mean by "most Muslims" and "peaceful." Most Muslims where? In the U.S.? In Canada? Or in Middle Eastern countries, in some of which most Muslims are quite staunchly opposed to LGBT rights? And in those liberals' view, does said opposition mean that most Muslims in those countries aren't actually "peaceful"?

It seems to me that if we take the definition of "peaceful" to basically mean "someone who doesn't hold a gun or engage in armed violence" (and yes, I've seen a lot of people define "peaceful" as such), then we have watered down the definition of "peaceful" so much that it has lost a significant portion of its meaning. There are many Muslims who still believe that the legal age of marriage should be as soon as a child reaches puberty. Are those Muslims "peaceful" too, according to the same self-identified liberals who defend mainstream Islam so strongly?

I generally believe that trying to defend mainstream Islam (mainly Sunni Islam as taught by the majority scholarly Sunni view) and stating that most Muslims who practice it are "peaceful" while also defending LGBT rights and sexual freedoms, as two examples, is like trying to have one's cake and eat it too—and that is one gigantic cake to boot.

I would like to note that I'm mainly talking about the version of Islam I'm most familiar with, though, which is mainstream Sunni Islam. I realize that there are many Muslims who practice Islam according to far more moderate views. My critical statements are not aimed at those Muslims.

I don't feel able to comment directly on the OP, but I have to concede the position of the left is very weak on this.
Defending Islam fits better with treating Muslims as equal members of society and endeavouring to protect them from racism (build on equating Islam with Arab). In doing so, this can lead to an anti-imperialist defence of ISIL and Islamic fundamentalism by portraying them as victims rather than also perpetrators of abuses. This moral universalism very much protects those who would undermine it and it is hard to know how to defend the rights of extremists without also defending their actions, particularly when they do not share values of tolerance and personal liberty.
The reverse position is to treat Islam or some section of it as inferior to western humanist and secular values. From the lefts perspective this is extremely uncomfortable given that it does justify US and western interventions to "civilise" Muslims and spread freedom, democracy and uphold human rights. A similar case could be made for Soviet interventions in Afghanistan (or soviet secularisation in Central Asia) and efforts made to protect women's rights in the face of religious beliefs but again it rests on the basis of claiming superiority and using force to enforce it.

Demands for an Islamic reformation still uphold western secularism as superior to theocratic systems but stay relatively true to the lefts goal of self-emancipation. This is however at the cost of pushing the realisation of human rights and preventing abuses ever more distant into the future as it means having some level of trust in Muslims finding a common "humanity" as a based for shared moral understanding or a belief in the inevitability of secularisation. The weakness of the left and progressive movements globally makes this a hard position to pull off credibly even if it is probably the ideal we should aspire to.

In reference to the OP the problem is whether applying our standards to Muhammad's marriage to Aisha represents the realisation of human rights as an objective, universal morality or a form of imperialism built in recognising the historically and cultural relative conditions at work. I wish I could say confidently it is a form of child abuse but it entails the willingness to use aggressive force against Muslims to accept that view as their own and therefore one set of human rights abuses to prevent another set of human rights abuses. How can we seriously claim one is just and the other is unjust? The weakness of the liberal-left position is its unwillingness to use totalitarian methods to impose secular standards of civilisation on others and therefore instead slips into an egalitarianism that levels down to the lowest common denominator. This is true even if an Islamic reformation view as you have to use force to push religion from the public sphere to the private sphere of individual belief in order to secularise it. As a legacy of moral squeamishness from the catastrophe of the twentieth century it is understandable but the very practical consequences of such a paralysis has effects in how the left responds to conflicting demands to protect Muslims and Arabs from the far-right and western imperialism, whilst also secularising Islam to protect the rights of women, the LGBTQ community and free thinkers both of religious and non-religious inclinations. Whilst this reply doesn't deal directly with the OP I hope it nevertheless shows the way in which Aiashas marriage to Muhammad can be used to set a precedent for child abuse, forced marriage, rape and denying women's rights is part of a larger context of the paralysis of the lefts moral judgement.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
It depends on what you mean by the "primary accounts." If we're talking about the "primary accounts" that most Islamic scholars refer to, then we're talking about saheeh hadiths from al-Bukhari and Muslim in addition to some other accounts that are considered by those scholars to be of lesser authority than the two saheeh hadith books.



You raise a good point that also brings something to mind: mainstream Islam's strict views against "blasphemy" would basically make it a criminal offense to write negative things about Muhammad or his life. This means that if A'isha showed signs of trauma from child sexual abuse and they weren't recorded in written accounts about her, any non-Muslim historian who dared to write about them would probably be prosecuted for being viewed as slandering Muhammad.

Another question is whether such large-scale obfuscation occurred to the point where all accounts of A'isha's suffering from trauma were obfuscated or lost, though. That almost feels like a conspiracy theory to believe in, although the fervor with which many people defend Muhammad also opens the door to questions about the possibility of such large-scale obfuscation actually having happened.
Women did not have a venue to have their experiences written down, because their experiences weren't seen as important. And even then, they probably had Stockholm Syndrome, like they do today. It is not realistic to say "there is no evidence of trauma" when no one would ever record the experience of a woman, let alone a child. And the men who controlled the society would have censored what she said if she did dare speak. The fact that it happened in the past doesn't make it "not abuse", it makes it "abuse was normal" which is no excuse. Humans have innate empathy that tells them what is wrong, and I maintain that this was wrong and they knew it. That the culture allowed wrong doesn't make it ok. God told the Israelites to commit genocide. That doesn't mean it was right, by the same token. As human beings they knew it was wrong. Atrocities are atrocities. This is no different than Christian apologists excusing the rape and genocide in the Bible. All humans in all times know that this is wrong, even if it is common.
 
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